Originally posted by NibedicusDarth Thor and Emperor Sidious are trolls who pick and choose what counts and what doesn't while openly breaking the rules in this forum disrespecting it. They are fanboys.
The MVF Golden Rule:What is seen on screen is canon in these forums. If your character you wish to use has feats/actions/handicaps that contradict what that character did on screen (movie canon), then it is a violation and is illegal. MOVIE FEATS ONLY!
Originally posted by quanchi112
Darth Thor and Emperor Sidious are trolls who pick and choose what counts and what doesn't while openly breaking the rules in this forum disrespecting it. They are fanboys.
You know very well what's Canon to the Star Wars Movies. Disney has made that pretty clear. And don't worry, you still have the reputation as the No.1 TROLL on KMC.
Don't be a sore loser just because your butt hurt how often I've completely broken you down on these boards.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That has no bearing on this forum. Nothing in the novels contradicts Windu winning. He won. You and Es argue based off useless conjecture. You aren't to be taken seriously and are a huge hypocrite. 💃
What has that got to do with anything I've said?
Haha you're obviously still crying you can't even take me in a Khan vs Ahsoka thread 😆
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) You are misinterpreting what MY ARGUMENT IS, as proven by this statement:
Clearly you missed the part I began that sentence saying IF
I was asking you then what it is you were arguing for, because you seemed to be arguing for the sake of it and still are tbh.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I never made such an argument. It has never been my position to determine who wins in this matchup. MY position was entirely to point out that Sids lost the actual mvie fight and that we CANNOT use novelization as evidence due to forum rules (especially as the movie contradicted so much of the novel in that specific scene).
The Saber fight sure, I accept that. The Force Lightning fight... That's certainly up for debate. Since it is confirmed Sidious began playing Possum sometime into that exchange.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) Yes, we know he has 2 sabers. <----- Yes, this is canon.What is conjecture is the impact said saber would have had and the motivation on why it wasn't used.
You adding little theories on the why's (that was never alluded to in the movies)? THAT'S grasping.
Tell the difference now?
Except I'm not using it to Prove anything, just that it ADDS to the part Sidious was playing Possum (a part already confirmed as fact)
Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) You know what? I'll admit, I might be wrong here, I might have missed this massive barrage of proof that you so painstakingly provided during our debates. I've gone thru your posts and I can't seem to find it. Please repost this barrage of proof you are talking about so I can go thru them. A few excerpts will do.
See below.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) See? This is the problem with you. You can't tell the difference between an assumption and an interpretation of a scene.
LOL I can see how you'll play this argument of youre to your favor no matter how Many Assumptions You make.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) What proof do you have that they made a difference? I look at the scene and I don't see anything that points out that they were being portrayed as having an impact on the fight other than getting pwned. Please, provide timestamps.
What?
Their mere PRESENCE Affects the fight. That's not a Fair 1 v 1 match up. And there very presence is proof of that. It's you who needs to Prove otherwise.
Heck someone just throwing a towel at Sidious can be a distraction which changes the course of a fight. Never mind 4 Jedi Masters which Force Sidious to go All Out from the get go, and get into close up Saber combat for the remainder of the fight.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
2) You can point out no instance in the movie that proves that he was feigning weakness at any time during the saber fight (as Anakin wasn't even there until AFTER he was disarmed). The only time he feigned weakness was at the very end (as per my explanation) during the time he was shooting lightning. End of the day, he suffered far more visible damage than Windu (who suffered no visible damage at all) during his barrage and continuing it would have been more detrimental to him than Windu.
I never claimed he was feigning weakness during the Saber fight.
And here we go again going around in circles.
Oh the Lightning effect was VISIBLE on Sidious. Well it's effect was pretty AUDIBLE on Mace.
Fact is (according to the novel) he was about to get disarmed, when Sidious stopped because he was FEIGNING WEAKNESS.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
3) You are speculating on his reasoning for not using the 2nd saber. I already addressed this as per above.
See Above.
It only adds to what's already an argued result.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
4) Arguing "definite possibilities" as facts/proof IS DESPERATE.facepalm
Except I'm not. Do you even read my posts? Oh I forgot, you're arguing for the sake of it.
And you Facepalming me is frankly Laughable.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
And in your crusade to "defend people's right to argue a maybe" you ended up defending the theory yourself.
As I said, the Theory is a definite Possibility. As confirmed by the Official Site. Doesn't mean I'd use it in Versus forums.
I personally like to Think the SECOND Most Powerful Jedi could take a couple of wins against Sidious (Yoda's equal) under the right circumstances.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Oh, I thought long and hard. This has been exhausting but worth it if you at least by this point learned what the difference between "proof" and "conjecture" is.I'm really hoping.
This statement of yours would be worth a little more, if you weren't using Conjecture yourself, which I've repeatedly explained to you you were. I'm using PROOF: AGAIN:
1) Mace's Combat abilities are 2ND to Yoda's (Sidious's proven equal in almost every way)- Source AOTC Movie featurette.
2) Mace began the fight with Aid from 3 Jedi Masters - I'm sure I don't need to prove that.
3) Sidious Faked being weak in the Lightning vs Saber duel- Source Confirmed in the ROTS Audio commentary)
4) Sidious's Force Lightning Power was beyond what Mace could handle (had it carried on) Source- ROTS Movie Novelization.
5)If we go further into movie Canon- TCW, Sidious shows he can TK Stomp Maul any second he likes (even when he was aided by his Powerful Brother). Mace briefly fought Maul in the comic book Son of Dathomir (based on unfinished TCW Season 6 Arc), and he clearly couldn't do anything like that, despite the fact that Maul was on his Own this time, and it was actually Windu who had help. Now I'm certain Mace would have won. But he clearly couldn't instantly TK Maul like Sidious could. Why is that? Because he's simply Not As Powerful as Sidious. And it's clearly not a tiny difference in Power either.
6) Mace fought equally with a Weakened Mother Talzin (Season 6 TCW), whilst Sidious fought equally with a Fully restored and at the "Heart of her Power" Talzin again in Son of Dathomir.
^ All that is MORE than enough proof that
A) We never saw Sidious lose a Fair 1 v 1 Going All Out Throughout (i.e. not playing possum) Match up against Mace.
However Mace proved he can win a Saber match up against Sidious, but not that he is definitely better even in that department. And the chance of winning a Saber fight certainly gives him hope in taking an all out.
B) Sidious > Mace, and Sidious would win a large majority against him. That's pretty clear from all the evidence.
I think my stance (and the evidence it's based around) is pretty clear and aside from Confirmed Trolls like Quanchi, I really don't see what's to argue about here.
Originally posted by Darth ThorThe movies are canon and nothing contradicts anything I've said. Movie feats only. You continuing to break the rules here and being proud of it makes you a troll.
You know very well what's Canon to the Star Wars Movies. Disney has made that pretty clear. And don't worry, you still have the reputation as the No.1 TROLL on KMC.Don't be a sore loser just because your butt hurt how often I've completely broken you down on these boards.
What has that got to do with anything I've said?
Haha you're obviously still crying you can't even take me in a Khan vs Ahsoka thread 😆
I argue based off facts not conjecture. That will always be the difference between us. Nib like me is calling you out for the very same reasons.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Then provide forum-acceptable proof. Going "nu-uh! it is!" isn't debating. Again, if you want to use all SW canon then make your own thread in the AvF or the Sci Fi forum or even the freakin SW forum. And get out of the MOVIE vs forum. This is the wrong forum to be arguing with this mindset.2) So basically you criteria is "whatever you want canon is canon". Nope. Doesn't work that way. Mod ruling then?
"Look at the above point" does not rebut my point at all. Standard canonicity practice is all-or-nothing. You made no effort to rebut this, try again.
No, we do not go by parts that align. The scene in question doesn't even align. And I am not Korupt. Give me the courtesy I give you. I present my proof and I painstakingly and repeatedly cite my sources. You have not done the same.
"Above point" is wrong. Your idea is wrong until you prove it right as at this point, I have presented more evidence (forum accepted, with sources) proving me right than you proving your point.
3) So, what you perceive as common perception is sufficient proof? Appeal to common belief fallacy (http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/23-appeal-to-common-belief). Provide proof or concede the point.
4) Wrong. Present forum acceptable canon proof that Yoda > Mace. At this point, the only thing he has that is forum-accepted and canon is a higher rank.
Quit deflecting. Answer me this: do you have any forum-rules accepted proof whatsoever? If so, please present this. Stop going "because it is common belief" or "we all know". You and I both know that's a fallacy.
I have given you the courtesy of presenting forum-acceptable proof with sources. All I ask is that you do the same.
Look Kurupt has pretty much made it acceptable for the books to be for this where they align with the movies. Vaapad is pretty much canon so again why do I need to provide proof for something already established.
2. Can you not read, or are you misinterpreting? I said WHERE THEY ALIGN WITH THR MOVIES. ITS THAT SIMPLE. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE AND THE BOOK THEN ITS CANON. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK, BUT NOT THE MOVIE ITS NOT CANON. HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND. SO FOR INSATNCE DOOKU WAS FORCE PUSHED BY ANAKIN IN THE NOVEL I BELIEVE. THAT NEVER HAPPEND IN THE MOVIE SO ITS NOT CANON. WESAW THE WHOLE DUEL AND IT NEVER HAPPENED SO HIM DOING THAT ISNT CANON. DO YOU GET IT?
All of this referenced to #2.
Yes you do. What aligns is canon, what doesn't isn't canon. That simple, can't misinterpret in any way. If it speciffacly happened in the film and the novel then that part is canon. That simple.
3. Perceive?? It's explitly stated in the novel, what factors mad pe it up. This thread is Windu and Yoda vs Dooku and Sidious. This is a discussion about how Vaapad works.
4). It's pretty much confirmed Yoda>Windu. It's pretty dumb to send proof to something that's already there. Also here is canon proof. Yoda and Sidious fight, they are on equal ground. Mace and Sidious fight Sidious had Windu on his back foot the first half until Vaapad.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh the Lightning effect was VISIBLE on Sidious. Well it's effect was pretty AUDIBLE on Mace.
I'm actually working on my (rather long response) but I really had to single this out.
AUDIBLE effect!
AUDIBLE EFFECT!
And, and you're even arguing that Windu was on the losing side of the exchange...!!
Because, because of AUDIBLE EFFECT!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
ROFLMAO!!!!
OMG, that is the funniest thing I have heard someone say in a long time.
Ahem. Sorry, moving on.
What's worse is, they are adamant that Yoda > Windu, and that very well may be, but it's not based on their canon fights. If we go by that, Mace beats Sids, while Yoda wasn't able to. Odd they would be so convinced Yoda is his superior and yell CANON!! When in fact, that isn't proven by movie canon.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Look Kurupt has pretty much made it acceptable for the books to be for this where they align with the movies. Vaapad is pretty much canon so again why do I need to provide proof for something already established.2. Can you not read, or are you misinterpreting? I said WHERE THEY ALIGN WITH THR MOVIES. ITS THAT SIMPLE. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE AND THE BOOK THEN ITS CANON. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK, BUT NOT THE MOVIE ITS NOT CANON. HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND. SO FOR INSATNCE DOOKU WAS FORCE PUSHED BY ANAKIN IN THE NOVEL I BELIEVE. THAT NEVER HAPPEND IN THE MOVIE SO ITS NOT CANON. WESAW THE WHOLE DUEL AND IT NEVER HAPPENED SO HIM DOING THAT ISNT CANON. DO YOU GET IT?
All of this referenced to #2.
Yes you do. What aligns is canon, what doesn't isn't canon. That simple, can't misinterpret in any way. If it speciffacly happened in the film and the novel then that part is canon. That simple.
3. Perceive?? It's explitly stated in the novel, what factors mad pe it up. This thread is Windu and Yoda vs Dooku and Sidious. This is a discussion about how Vaapad works.
4). It's pretty much confirmed Yoda>Windu. It's pretty dumb to send proof to something that's already there. Also here is canon proof. Yoda and Sidious fight, they are on equal ground. Mace and Sidious fight Sidious had Windu on his back foot the first half until Vaapad.
I haven't made anything acceptable on this matter. I never said it was okay to use the books on this forum in a general sense. What we were having is, a general discussion on 1. Lucas' position on the matter and 2. what is most likely to have happened In Re: Sids throwing the fight. So when discussing a isolated topic, and when both parties agree, we can use whatever sources we want to try and paint an accurate picture of Lucas' intentions or what is likely. However, hat doesn't mean books are okay to use in this forum in a general sense.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2Kurupt doesn't make the rules here and you've broken the rules since day one. You're a biased troll and doesn't argue based off facts just based off personal bias.
Look Kurupt has pretty much made it acceptable for the books to be for this where they align with the movies. Vaapad is pretty much canon so again why do I need to provide proof for something already established.2. Can you not read, or are you misinterpreting? I said WHERE THEY ALIGN WITH THR MOVIES. ITS THAT SIMPLE. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE AND THE BOOK THEN ITS CANON. IF IT HAPPENED IN THE BOOK, BUT NOT THE MOVIE ITS NOT CANON. HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND. SO FOR INSATNCE DOOKU WAS FORCE PUSHED BY ANAKIN IN THE NOVEL I BELIEVE. THAT NEVER HAPPEND IN THE MOVIE SO ITS NOT CANON. WESAW THE WHOLE DUEL AND IT NEVER HAPPENED SO HIM DOING THAT ISNT CANON. DO YOU GET IT?
All of this referenced to #2.
Yes you do. What aligns is canon, what doesn't isn't canon. That simple, can't misinterpret in any way. If it speciffacly happened in the film and the novel then that part is canon. That simple.
3. Perceive?? It's explitly stated in the novel, what factors mad pe it up. This thread is Windu and Yoda vs Dooku and Sidious. This is a discussion about how Vaapad works.
4). It's pretty much confirmed Yoda>Windu. It's pretty dumb to send proof to something that's already there. Also here is canon proof. Yoda and Sidious fight, they are on equal ground. Mace and Sidious fight Sidious had Windu on his back foot the first half until Vaapad.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Kurupt doesn't make the rules here and you've broken the rules since day one. You're a biased troll and doesn't argue based off facts just based off personal bias.
You adapt to situations, and besides this isn't an official debate is a side discussion as Kurupt pointed out.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude, you're one of the most biased posters out there. All of your reasoning has to do with bias and your selective cherry picked beliefs. You say Windu is less than Yoda without any proof. You also ignore that Windu's style and skills with a saber isn't similar to Yoda's so the abc logic doesn't matter. People match up against each other differently and you thinking there is a clear list of who beats who shows you don't understand simple concepts in life let alone Star Wars.
How am I biased? Explain. I'm not the one going around say Khan beats every force weilder, or Maul is beating Dooku because of age. Well it's established Yoda is greater than Windu. Yoda didn't need an amp/special style to compete with Sidious and is said to be on Sidious' level in the ROTS commentary. Actually I've looked at these and you're the one whose wrong.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2Your posts. The fact you don't back your claims and use conjecture. You've been spanked on this and are so brain dead you won't get it.
How am I biased? Explain. I'm not the one going around say Khan beats every force weilder, or Maul is beating Dooku because of age. Well it's established Yoda is greater than Windu. Yoda didn't need an amp/special style to compete with Sidious and is said to be on Sidious' level in the ROTS commentary. Actually I've looked at these and you're the one whose wrong.
Maul has other advantages over Dooku not just age. Didn't Disney just back my opinion ? 😂
Yoda might be higher in force power but he isn't beating Windu in a duel. Sorry.
Windu won and Yoda lost. Facts. 😂
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Clearly you missed the part I began that sentence saying IFI was asking you then what it is you were arguing for, because you seemed to be arguing for the sake of it and still are tbh.
2) The Saber fight sure, I accept that. The Force Lightning fight... That's certainly up for debate. Since it is confirmed Sidious began playing Possum sometime into that exchange.
3) Except I'm not using it to Prove anything, just that it ADDS to the part Sidious was playing Possum (a part already confirmed as fact)
See below.
4) LOL I can see how you'll play this argument of youre to your favor no matter how Many Assumptions You make.
5) What?
Their mere PRESENCE Affects the fight. That's not a Fair 1 v 1 match up. And there very presence is proof of that. It's you who needs to Prove otherwise.
6) I never claimed he was feigning weakness during the Saber fight.
And here we go again going around in circles.
7) Oh the Lightning effect was VISIBLE on Sidious. Well it's effect was pretty AUDIBLE on Mace.
8) Fact is (according to the novel) he was about to get disarmed, when Sidious stopped because he was FEIGNING WEAKNESS.
9) See Above.
It only adds to what's already an argued result.
10) Except I'm not. Do you even read my posts? Oh I forgot, you're arguing for the sake of it.
And you Facepalming me is frankly Laughable.
11) As I said, the Theory is a definite Possibility. As confirmed by the Official Site. Doesn't mean I'd use it in Versus forums.
12) I personally like to Think the SECOND Most Powerful Jedi could take a couple of wins against Sidious (Yoda's equal) under the right circumstances.
13) This statement of yours would be worth a little more, if you weren't using Conjecture yourself, which I've repeatedly explained to you you were. I'm using PROOF: AGAIN:
13.1) Mace's Combat abilities are 2ND to Yoda's (Sidious's proven equal in almost every way)- Source AOTC Movie featurette.
13.2) Mace began the fight with Aid from 3 Jedi Masters - I'm sure I don't need to prove that.
13.3) Sidious Faked being weak in the Lightning vs Saber duel.
13.5) If we go further into movie Canon- TCW, Sidious shows he can TK Stomp Maul any second he likes (even when he was aided by his Powerful Brother). Mace briefly fought Maul in the comic book Son of Dathomir (based on unfinished TCW Season 6 Arc), and he clearly couldn't do anything like that, despite the fact that Maul was on his Own this time, and it was actually Windu who had help. Now I'm certain Mace would have won. But he clearly couldn't instantly TK Maul like Sidious could. Why is that? Because he's simply Not As Powerful as Sidious. And it's clearly not a tiny difference in Power either.
13.6) Mace fought equally with a Weakened Mother Talzin (Season 6 TCW), whilst Sidious fought equally with a Fully restored and at the "Heart of her Power" Talzin again in Son of Dathomir.
^ All that is MORE than enough proof that
13.A) We never saw Sidious lose a Fair 1 v 1 Going All Out Throughout (i.e. not playing possum) Match up against Mace.
14) However Mace proved he can win a Saber match up against Sidious, but not that he is definitely better even in that department. And the chance of winning a Saber fight certainly gives him hope in taking an all out.
B) Sidious > Mace, and Sidious would win a large majority against him. That's pretty clear from all the evidence.
I think my stance (and the evidence it's based around) is pretty clear and aside from Confirmed Trolls like Quanchi, I really don't see what's to argue about here.
1) Then why do you keep asking this question when I've already stated countless times what I was arguing for?
2) Which I have explained with timestamps and dialogue quotes from the movie (the exact point where Sids did feign weakness and the logic behind it).
(3:16) of the film.
And your only response is: but it doesn't count cuz movie commentary and novelizationzzz! Without even having the courtesy to present quotes and excerpts. You just went with "just because".
My proof (timestamps) > your proof (none)
3) Wait, so you're not using it to prove anything? So you were just arguing just to argue?
Hypocrite much?
And it doesn't even ADD to his playing possum AT ALL. You have no direct proof of his motivation behind not using this 2nd saber (if he even had it with him) AND there are other possible reasons like it making sense not to draw on an opponent pointing a saber at your neck if you want to live long enough to trick some kid to do your bidding. I mean, seriously. Yes, this is conjecture, too. BUT it shows that "playing possum" isn't the ONLY plausible explanation on why he didn't draw and it isn't even the best one, at least my guess is simple and makes sense.
You have to at least admit this little theory of your is conjecture (and thus adds NOTHING) and move on.
4) An interpretation is stating the fight as it happens based on what happened (they fought and no visible or measurable advantage has been gained by the presence of the 3 other jedis due to their short stay and the fact that Windu was unable to press any sort of positional advantage). It is quantifiable and easily proven/disproven simply by observing the evidence presented. An assumption is inserting meaning outside of the evidence provided and making a guess (Sids was forced to fight at long range because 3 other Jedis made it disadvantageous for him to use his force abilities) on unquantifiable things such as motivation and what-if possibilities.
Learn. The. Difference.
5) You might as well argue that the type of lighting affected the fight or the presence of the window (w/c actually did contribute more to how the fight progressed) in his office or the fact that he was wearing a silly looking outfit. They were inconsequential. You know, little irrelevant excuses just to try and weasel out a "hey it wasn't fair!" argument.
Did they disarm Sids? Inflict damage? Exhaust him? Place him in a disadvantageous position? Did their numbers corner him? Imbalance him, forcing him to make mistakes? <--- these are measurable/quantifiable and can be proven by simply LOOKING at the evidence.
The answer to the above? No. None of the sort, they showed up, died and the fight continued. They might as well have been air.
"Their numbers forced him to not use his force powers fight in close range" <--- conjecture, as we do not know his motivations in not using his force powers or engage in short range. So all this is is speculation, a what-if/I think scenario that cannot be visually confirmed via the movie scene in question.
And this is all irrelevant (if you think about it) as I thought you already accepted that he lost the fight? How are these added circumstances of his loss even relevant to the only thing that I will be arguing with you now (that he didn't throw the fight?)? I mean, why even bring it up (and yes, you were the first to bring this up) in our debate?
6) This is what you said:
"2) That Sidious FAKING Being Weak, MADE NO DIFFERENCE TO THE FIGHT WHATSOEVER"
You made no specific mention of w/c part of the fight but saying "difference in the fight whatsoever" seems to imply the entire fight.
7) Audible effect!! BWAHAHAHA!
8) Except the MOVIE (ultimate canon) contradicts that idea. He had both hands firmly on his saber and was bending FORWARD, not driven back. To the point where he was pushing his saber closer and closer to Sids. Those are NOT signs of anyone who is close to being disarmed (2:40-3:01). Movie > Novel. And please present your proof (via excerpts) before making claims like this. Common courtesy as many of us have no access to the books.
9) Already addressed. And it does not.
10) Do you even read what you type/what I'm replying to before making a reply?
This is what you typed (and what I was replying to as desperate) and tried to present as some form of proof:
"The Offical Lucasfilm SW Site itself (where all the Official SW Annoucements are made), brings it up as a Definite Possibility."
"Definite possibility" is a non-answer. It is the same as saying "will not confirm or deny" and then going around implying that this somehow possibly corroborates your logic.
It is desperate and it is sad. Hell you didn't even link the site so others can see this non-answer for themselves. Proof you could have presented, but didn't. Again.
(Continued)
11) Sure, you won't DIRECTLY cite it. But you're not above heavily implying it. :rollseyes:
If you were really honest about your whole "wouldn't use it on a VS forum"BS, you wouldn't have cited it at all. Instead, like a weasel, you present it, imply that it is some sort of proof and deny ever using it. Bravo! Politician-level evasion debating detected.
12) Not really part of what I'm arguing about but good for you.
13) Then point out where I used conjecture. If you mean the -interpretation- of the effect the 3 other jedis had, then this is just another case of you not being able to differentiate proof and interpretations from pure speculation (as detailed by my answer above).
13.1) Post excerpt/quote.
13.2) Already addressed. And not really relevant to what I'm arguing about (although I would still answer it, I'm OCD that way).
13.3) No, he faked being powerless as per movie dialogue:
Sids (3:08): I-I can't hold it any longer. I-I-I-I'm too weak.
Sids (3:41): I'm too weak, don't kill me.
He still had reserves but at this point, it was doing more harm to him than his enemy and he also saw this as an opportunity to turn Anakin against Windu (by appearing weak and helpless and asking for mercy). Him appearing weak has no bearing on him being able to beat Windu in that part of the fight whatsoever as his barrage had no visible effect against his enemy while horribly burning and disfiguring him.
But wait... AUDIBLE effect amirite? 😄 LMAO.
13.5/13.6/13.A) Sigh more new stuff that has nothing to do with my argument (that Sids lost the fight. That Sids did NOT throw the fight. That is all.). Are you intentionally adding new stuff to extend our debate?
Should I even reply to this? This seems pointless....
14) I will agree to this, tho not at the downplaying tone of it but what is relevant to me (and my argument) is that Mace DID beat Sids in a saber fight.
14.B) Your opinion. Not don't really care enough to argue it (unless you press me to). As my ONLY point of contention (as I've repeated many many times) is that Windu beat Sids in the saber fight. Sids did not throw the fight in any way.
End of the day, ,much of your logic here has had plenty of holes and can be taken down point per point. Sadly, I don't think you'd ever go about and listen to other people and analyze where you went wrong enough to fix them. I'm not saying ALL as some actually reasonable. But you need to really look at some of the arguments you're throwing around, some are just atrocious.
And I feel like you still need to learn to differentiate speculation (w/c can't be presented as proof) vs interpretation (w/c can be argued against but can be easily and quantifiably puit together/fixed) vs direct evidence (w/c can't be argued against at all). You sometimes still seem confused about w/c is w/c. And sometimes interchange one for the other. I don't mean this in any sort of insulting way, I say this with all due respect and only as constructive criticism. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I have just as many flaws myself. But just saying.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. What?? He doesn't edit them? That's a total lie. The writer even admitted George "tirelessly" went over the book and made edit after edit. He absolutely made edits himself. Back up your claim that he never edited the book or concede you have no clue what you're talking about.2. You're not understanding... NOT ONLY did he not explicitly state Sids threw the fight.... HE SAID IN MULTIPLE WAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. What is so hard to understand about this? Are you slow or something? It's not a situation where he just left things ambiguous and didn't make a comment on it one way or another. IF that was the case you might have a point. However, not only did he never, not once say, Sids threw the fight. He outright said the opposite... He had the book say:
1. He attacked him with all his dark might/fury. You admit this shows he wasn't holding back. Let me ask you this, if you're trying to threw an entire fight... that means by default you're holding back the entire time. You don't see that?
2. Him having explained how Mace won is further proof. If his true intention was that Sids threw the fight... why explain how Mace won? Why go into detail about the things Mace did to win, if in fact, his real intention was that Sids threw the fight. He could've easily said that, yet choose to say the exact opposite.
That's what you don't see to get, this isn't something he never commented on or left really ambiguous. He didn't just not say the fight was thrown... he went about saying the exact opposite of that in place after place... The script.. the novel.. the movie.. the commentary. Every single place he could he's outright said the opposite of him throwing the fight. So stop acting like it's just a matter of it not being said one way or the other. No, he's made it crystal clear.
now I'm asking again... Do you honestly believe Lucas did all of the above, and said the complete opposite of him throwing the fight, yet.. yet... his true intention was he threw the fight? Does that actually make logical sense to you?
I said he doesn't edit them himself. I said he most likely has a department that does that for him. Wow you must really like straw man arguments. I can't concede to something I never said. I'm pretty sure he along with a department, or just a department were to edit the book. He is a very busy man with other things to worry about.
2. Your not understanding. NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE EXPLICITLY STATED. IM NOT SURE HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR I CAN BE. Again a description of the scen. Official site says the battle was in my own words"shady". It's more to that battle than meets the eye. It's canonically proven that he had two sabers by Dave Filoni in ROTS, so why not pull out that second saber. Sidious is a confirmed jar Kai specialist so he wouldnot t just take one and leave the other, he would take both with him.
1. Are you stupid or something. If you throw a fight it doesn't mean you're holding back. All depends on the circumstances. In this Mace was going all out with his Vaapad, so Sidious woudl have to counter that and that's how they got to be EQUALS. THEY BOTH HAD TO STAY ON PAR WITH THE OTHER AS EACH IMPROVED IN SPEED. THE WAY SIDIOUS IMPROVES IS BY DRAWING ON THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE.
2. Again books do these types of things all the same. They describe everything. Think about it. What's going on in Mace's head is far more better to describe and entertaining to view than a simple line, as the Sith Lord knows in his mind blah blah blah. Then events play out, that detail isn't just isn't important, once you consider that in the end Sidious wins. So that little detail doesn't matter. Who throws Mace out the window? Who makes Yoda flee? Who turns the chosen one to the dark side? Who becomes emperor? So in the end it's not really important. Also to recall on your last question to me about Lucas' original intent. It would be to have Sidious winning without issue. The only reason that duel even happened was because Samuel L Jackson didn't want a wimpy death. Wouldn't be the first time he influenced something. Remember the purple saber?
Again your biased makes the section difficult to go with.
Let me ask you this question to answer your question. Have I let up in the slightest in my beliefs? If I didnt think it was logical then I wouldn't be fighting for it. I beleive there's logic in it and proof to back it. Your side doesn't for different reasons. Yours seem to be biased, and in some cases just flat out stupidity. So don't waste both our times with this last paragraph ever again.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Your posts. The fact you don't back your claims and use conjecture. You've been spanked on this and are so brain dead you won't get it.Maul has other advantages over Dooku not just age. Didn't Disney just back my opinion ? 😂
Yoda might be higher in force power but he isn't beating Windu in a duel. Sorry.
Windu won and Yoda lost. Facts. 😂
So you're saying I will lie cheat and do everything just to get Sidious to win? Hmm interesting. While interesting not true. If Sidious loses then I will admit that. I'm fair in my opinion unlike you.
Age and physically pretty much it. Dooku has force edge and Deuling edge, and speed is arguable faster. Also I have not seen anything confirming this.
Yoda>Windu. Look at their battles with Sidious. One needed an amp to compete, the other didn't. The novel says Windu used Vaapad. Lucas looks over this, and doesn't say anything about it. If he wanted it out he could. So that shows the creator is fine with Vaapad showing it's canon.
Context.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I haven't made anything acceptable on this matter. I never said it was okay to use the books on this forum in a general sense. What we were having is, a general discussion on 1. Lucas' position on the matter and 2. what is most likely to have happened In Re: Sids throwing the fight. So when discussing a isolated topic, and when both parties agree, we can use whatever sources we want to try and paint an accurate picture of Lucas' intentions or what is likely. However, hat doesn't mean books are okay to use in this forum in a general sense.
I know. This isn't a general issue. A more off topic discussion that's what I told Nib. I undertake d that part. I'm not using in general use just according to what you said there.