Originally posted by DTMRidiculous and Lucas already said Windu overpowered him. Sheev feigned weakened only after he couldn't do anything about defending himself against Windu in his current situation. He needed Anakin because he was at Mace's mercy.
Is there really any doubt that Palpatine faking his weakness during his duel with Windu was an act? Clearly Palpatine goes from a weak, feeble and broken man begging for his life to screaming UNLIMITED POWER in a matter of seconds. This was obviously done to get Anakin to take action, his final test to turn him to the Dark Side, which once he did, and the ruse no longer needed, Palpatine once more showed his True Power and blasted Windu out the window. This literally couldnt be more obvious when you watch the movie. Im not saying Mace couldnt beat Palpatine in a duel, Im more saying that its pretty clear that he didnt Really beat him in ROTS.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Firstly it doesn't contradict the scene in question. Because Mace's Saber was pushed back, and Mace clearly was struggling to hold onto his Saber.Whilst you're acting as if the whole scene was completely different. It wasn't.
2) Secondly you're bringing up Movie versus rules, and ignoring SW movies has a very established set of Canon rules in and of itself, which includes the movie novelizations where they align with the movies.
3) I've already done that job. Just pointing out your double standards. You see KT use a scene in the novel that doesn't even occur in the film as Proof, and Ignore it. Then you see me use descriptions of a scene that does happen in the film, and jump all over me for it.
4) No it's not conjecture. It's in the damn movie commentary Lol.
5) Yes that's all that happened, that Sidious was getting "cooked". Mace was just fine right? Which is why he was the one screaming LOL
6) Oh please do.
7) And 10 seconds makes no difference in a fight? LOL
8) No, because he was forced into close up Saber combat right from the get go. There was no other way to take out 3 Jedi that quickly.
9) On the other hand, how did Sidious's fight start with Yoda? Because IIRC it began with Sidious Shooting at Yoda from a distance sending him flying. And then Yoda giving Sidious a dose of Force Powers back. And THEN they engaged in Sabers.
10) Hmm let's see what direct evidence you have exactly? That Mace can beat Sidious in a Saber match up when he begins the fight with 3 other Jedi Masters.
That Mace can then "Overpower" Sidious's Lightning, when Sidious is Pretending to be Weak.
But for you're argument You're Assuming that neither of those 2 factors made any difference at all.
So it's in fact YOU whose being desperate, You whose full of Conjecture, if you're using all of that as some kind of evidence that Mace =/> Sidious in a fair 1 v 1 match up.
Whilst I have the Attack of the Clones movie featurette as proof that Mace is SECOND in combat abilities to Yoda - You know the guy who fought dead evenly with Sidious. I also have the Revenge of the Sith audio commentary Proving Sidious was Pretending to be WEAK against Mace Windu. I have the Revenge of the Sith Novel, Line Edited by Lucas, stating Sidious was Too Powerful for Mace.
Heck I even have TCW animation (Canon to the movies) as proof Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, which is MORE PROOF he wasn't as helpless as he made out on the floor, Playing Weak.
So you need to stop shouting "Conjecture Conjecture" and actually bring something solid to this argument yourself. And actually make it clear exactly what it is you're arguing. Are you honestly arguing Mace > Sidious? I don't even know. At least Quanchi is clear on that. Whilst you just seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.
1) Are you serious or what?? THIS doesn't contradict the scene in question???
"Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Not only did the fountain of Mace's blade NOT bend back towards his face, the WHOLE DAMNED DIALOGUE right after that NEVER HAPPENED IN THE MOVIE.
This is the dialogue from that exact moment in the MOVIE:
Windu: You have lost.
Sidious: No! No! You will die!
Sidious blasts Windu with lightning.
Sidious: He's a.... TRAITOR!
Windu: He... is the traitor. AHhhhh!
Sidious: I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose.
There are differences with the actual script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html) posted in IMSDB, but they're more or less the same.
NOT the one quoted from the book. And you say, there's no contradiction?? The WHOLE SCENE was a contradiction. This is the problem with confirmaiton bias, people see what they want to see. And you, my friend, are swimming in it.
2) Um. Yes. You ARE aware that we are in the movie VS forum right? In fact, the movie VS forum ONLY made accommodations to television characters that ALSO APPEARED in the movie via:
"Characters who have appeared on both television and on film (Star Trek, 24, etc) are allowed for versus matches. Star Trek, for example, has numerous tv shows of different franchises as well as motion pictures and it seems only fair to allow feats from both in versus matches. Remember, though: Characters who have appeared on television ONLY cannot be used in the Movie Versus Forum. That is why we have the All Versus Forum."
IF you're gonna argue here, learn the rules, man.
3. "Double standards" is when a person cites another person to one thing (like you know, using producer comments and novelizations as evidence especially when it contradicts actual movie scenes) and then turns around and does the EXACT same thing himself.
Seriously, do you even read what you type? Do you know how much of a hypocrite you sound?
4. Movie commentary where you inserted YOUR interpretation of it. Ignoring the fact that I explained George's meaning with:
Originally posted by Nibedicus
And FYI, what Lucas may have referred to him "pretending to be weak" is the actual statement he made that he was "too weak" (which was pretense as he still wasn't too weak at the time).3:16
That you conveniently ignore, of course.
5. Wow. Seriously? THIS is your argument? "He was screaming"? That's it? You understand at (3:28) of said scene as posted in my reply above, Windu was COMPLETELY fine after the barrage while Sids was slumped on the ground smoking and horribly disfigured by his own attack as evidenced by (3:21). Heck, if you listen closely, you'd hear a low sizzle like from a BBQ.
Fail. Total. Fail.
6. Oh, I did.
7. 10 seconds where nothing was done to actually change the flow of the fight? Yes, there was nothing in the movie that IMPLIED that their presence mattered at all. Other than extending the fight another 10 seconds. Anyone without confirmation bias glasses would know that the other Jedis were of no consequence in this fight. But at this point you're just desperately grasping at any straws to save the sinking ship that is your argument.
8. Conjecture. You literally made this whole explanation up.
9. Completely irrelevant. Yoda's fight with Sidious isn't a PROVEN standard combat process for how Sids fighting at all. You made this whole thing up. You are literally making up explanations that never existed anywhere as this debate is going.
What is wrong with you?
10. Ah. I see. This is the problem here. If you would be so kind, THIS is the point (and ONLY point) I am arguing here is the FACT that Sidious LOST his saber fight with Windu and that Sids DID NOT throw the fight. That is all. The totality of it. Scroll back and you'll understand that is the direction all my arguments took.
The problem with you, is that you are so desperate to push your fictional interpretation of how the fight went that you are now misinterpreting the arguments being made by other people.
The sad thing is now that you are just grasping at straws. Pulling conjectures like the "2nd lightsaber" theory like it proves anything (Yes, he has a 2nd lightsaber. Hell, I posted his fight with Savage and Maul in these forums MANY times. Do we have proof he had it at the time? No. Could it have helped it? Don't know, sounds like a bad idea, though). Pulling commentaries and novelizations like they were admissible as evidence in this forum and just literally going on full guesswork mode and THEN claiming that you know more.
You know what you need to know more of? Distinguishing evidence from conjecture.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Or maybe it actually was beyond Mace, since you know Sidious actually is more powerful than Mace. And Sidious's Lightning even managed to disarm Yoda off his Saber.Difference here is we don't know if he could have kept resisting it, because Sidious stopped firing, pretending to be weak, as per Lucas. So all we know is before Sidious stopped (pretending to be weak), Sidious was slowly(but surely) overpowering Mace.
Good point, they had the Saber match up first, where Mace began the fight with 3 other Masters aiding him.
Then once Mace eventually won that, and Anakin walked in, they had a second contest of Sidious's Lightning vs Mace's Saber, which we know Sidious was winning until he pretended to be too weak to continue.
You're right, we don't know, and that is the entire point. Absence of proof isn't proof. Nor is using that line to prove that Mace couldn't hold out, he DID in fact hold out. Who knows how long Sids could've kept on going, you have zero idea on that point, and thus makes your theory invalid. It was obviously negatively impacting Sids as well, so who knows how long he could've. The point is, if I had a quarter for every time I heard the line... "I can't hold on any longer" "That is all I can give" "he's too strong for me" and yet they end up holding out or winning.... I'd be a rich guy. Nothing in that line is proof Sids could've beat Mace had he continued.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Firstly it doesn't contradict the scene in question. Because Mace's Saber was pushed back, and Mace clearly was struggling to hold onto his Saber.Whilst you're acting as if the whole scene was completely different. It wasn't.
Secondly you're bringing up Movie versus rules, and ignoring SW movies has a very established set of Canon rules in and of itself, which includes the movie novelizations where they align with the movies.
I've already done that job. Just pointing out your double standards. You see KT use a scene in the novel that doesn't even occur in the film as Proof, and Ignore it. Then you see me use descriptions of a scene that does happen in the film, and jump all over me for it.
No it's not conjecture. It's in the damn movie commentary Lol.
Yes that's all that happened, that Sidious was getting "cooked". Mace was just fine right? Which is why he was the one screaming LOL
Oh please do.
And 10 seconds makes no difference in a fight? LOL
No, because he was forced into close up Saber combat right from the get go. There was no other way to take out 3 Jedi that quickly.
On the other hand, how did Sidious's fight start with Yoda? Because IIRC it began with Sidious Shooting at Yoda from a distance sending him flying. And then Yoda giving Sidious a dose of Force Powers back. And THEN they engaged in Sabers.
Hmm let's see what direct evidence you have exactly? That Mace can beat Sidious in a Saber match up when he begins the fight with 3 other Jedi Masters.
That Mace can then "Overpower" Sidious's Lightning, when Sidious is Pretending to be Weak.
But for you're argument You're Assuming that neither of those 2 factors made any difference at all.
So it's in fact YOU whose being desperate, You whose full of Conjecture, if you're using all of that as some kind of evidence that Mace =/> Sidious in a fair 1 v 1 match up.
Whilst I have the Attack of the Clones movie featurette as proof that Mace is SECOND in combat abilities to Yoda - You know the guy who fought dead evenly with Sidious. I also have the Revenge of the Sith audio commentary Proving Sidious was Pretending to be WEAK against Mace Windu. I have the Revenge of the Sith Novel, Line Edited by Lucas, stating Sidious was Too Powerful for Mace.
Heck I even have TCW animation (Canon to the movies) as proof Sidious keeps 2 Sabers on him, which is MORE PROOF he wasn't as helpless as he made out on the floor, Playing Weak.
So you need to stop shouting "Conjecture Conjecture" and actually bring something solid to this argument yourself. And actually make it clear exactly what it is you're arguing. Are you honestly arguing Mace > Sidious? I don't even know. At least Quanchi is clear on that. Whilst you just seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.
Correction, Sids was not pretending to be weak when firing lighting the entire time. He only "pretended" to be weak once his face was being fried and taking damage, prior to that, there is zero evidence to support it being "fake" lighting.
Correction again... How close the blade is, is VITAL important and a similar comparison here. Think about it... The claim is the blade was mere inches from his face and he was breathing in the fuse from his sword. When dealing with things THAT close... it actually being 2 feet away is hugely significant. I'll remind you, close like Anakin seeing a fight through a window of fast saber combat, while in the book, they were so fast they appeared like a haze. You can't have it both ways, and they are very much the same in this respect. What's good for Goose is good for the gander.
I've corrected you on this before, and I'll do so again. Saying somebody could've fought differently and thus won, isn't allowed on this forum. That is conjecture and you scripting the fight. It's ASSUEMD combatants are fighting to the best of their abilities. I've corrected you a few times on this, and you tried to repeat it again, but you know I won't allow that bud. You feeling like Sids could've done this or that, doesn't mean he fought dumb, or had he fought as you claim he would've won. Nope, not even close. Sids fought as best as he could, and he lost, it's that simple. You feeling like he could've done this or that, changes absolutely nothing.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ridiculous and Lucas already said Windu overpowered him. Sheev feigned weakened only after he couldn't do anything about defending himself against Windu in his current situation. He needed Anakin because he was at Mace's mercy.
Why should anyone take anything you say seriously? I mean your past performances show you aren't one to be taken seriously.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) What is agreed upon in the forum is irrelevant, what matters is direct evidence and highest canon material (movie).2) This is where you are wrong. A book is NOT automatically canon to a movie. And novelizations have to be 100% consistent with the source material (movie) for it to be considered canon. Any inconsistency/contradiction whatsoever and it falls apart as canon material. This is also applicable vice versa. Example: LoTR books cannot be used as evidence for the movie as there are some inconsistencies with book portrayal vs movie portrayal.
3) Conjecture and irrelevant.
4) There are many ways a person can be greater and obviously Yoda has a higher rank than Windu due to his age and tenure as well as his power and skill. And Sidious is a master manipulator and a master force user as well. Overall, in combat, however, they are all peers.
5) Doing good, buddy. Hehe. Glad to still have you here. Was busy for a better part of 5 months. Time is starting to free up tho.
1. Books are canon when they align with the movies. Actually things that are agreed here are important. There are things we will never understand, so we have to come to some sort of agreement. Also aren't the fighting styles canon? It's pretty established that Vaapad is out their.
2. Well you're partly wrong. It doesn't have to be 100% with the movie to be canon. That's why I say it's canon where it aligns with the movie. So we both agree that those parts are canon.
3. It's actually proven. Vaapad has been explained how it works. It reflects the darkness from the opponent and also uses your own inner darkness to make a "superconducting loop". Now that's fact. It's also a common sense thing. Once you've gone at it with someone once, your feelings aren't as intense as the first time. That being said one of those factors for Vaapad isn't as high so your power, speed, and strength won't be as high. Fact leads to common sense for this one.
4. With Vaapad Windu is Sidious peer. With it he's not Yoda's due to his inner darkness and Yoda's dark energy not being nearly high enough. Look at me being all technical.
5. Good to hear from you again.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah, my argument is being supported here against you biased Sheev fanboys. Everything you fanboys say is conjecture. I rely on facts, kid.
I mean you say you rely on facts, but you didn't answer the question. Why should anyone listen to you since your persona has been shown to be idiotic, so why listen to you.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2Again, you are making this about a perception and to personally attack me which adds validity to my case since it's about the facts. Windu won. Deal with it. 🙂
I mean you say you rely on facts, but you didn't answer the question. Why should anyone listen to you since your persona has been shown to be idiotic, so why listen to you.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Books are canon when they align with the movies. Actually things that are agreed here are important. There are things we will never understand, so we have to come to some sort of agreement. Also aren't the fighting styles canon? It's pretty established that Vaapad is out their.2. Well you're partly wrong. It doesn't have to be 100% with the movie to be canon. That's why I say it's canon where it aligns with the movie. So we both agree that those parts are canon.
3. It's actually proven. Vaapad has been explained how it works. It reflects the darkness from the opponent and also uses your own inner darkness to make a "superconducting loop". Now that's fact. It's also a common sense thing. Once you've gone at it with someone once, your feelings aren't as intense as the first time. That being said one of those factors for Vaapad isn't as high so your power, speed, and strength won't be as high. Fact leads to common sense for this one.
4. With Vaapad Windu is Sidious peer. With it he's not Yoda's due to his inner darkness and Yoda's dark energy not being nearly high enough. Look at me being all technical.
5. Good to hear from you again.
1. Things agreed here isn't proof. You need to revisit the MvF rules on what is considered admissible evidence usable in debates. Novelizations aren't one of them. Already explained why the Star Wars novelizations is NO WAY admissible here, they just conflict way too much with the movies.
2. Wrong. Once a novel diverges in any way from a movie's path (and vice versa), it is no longer usable as evidence of what happened in the movie as this proves that the novelization is a different version of what occurred (even if it WAS allowed as evidence via the rules). With even a minor deviation between movie and novel at any time whatsoever, the novelization stops becoming a text-based interpretation of the movie but becomes a completely different story of the same characters/settings which followed a similar but NOT identical path as the movie.
There is no circumventing this, if you wish, we can just go ahead and ask for a mod ruling.
3. Except we don't know how Windu's Vapaad worked in the movie as how it worked was never shown or alluded to. Anything you try to put forth is either PURE speculation or is INADMISSIBLE as you are using the novelization w/c did not jive with the actual movie. Again, movie forum.
Here is the actual script of the movie (I think, does anyone know if imsdb is official or just simply transcribed?): http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html
Pls show me where Vapaad was mentioned.
4. We will agree that in the one time where Sids and Windu were pitted against each other, they were peers. This could be due to Vapaad (speculation) or simply due to Windu being his peer in saberskill. We don't know.
While you're right in a sense bud, two things:
1. Even if they use the book, it becomes even worse for their argument, so there's no need to shy away from that
2. This is a general discussion about whether he threw the fight or not. This isn't a question of use feats from a book in the movie forum. This is simply a discussion about what occurred in that sequence, in that sense we can allow whatever mediums we want. It's not a movie vs. forum exclusivity discussion imo
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This getting ridiculous now, and it's truly painful. I mean painful to watch. Let me get this straight relentless, and tell me this makes logical sense.Lucas decides:
1. He's going to write a script for ROTS, and not one did he EVER talk about or even hint at a fight being thrown
2. Has a book written on movie, to add even more thoughts and details to the story to expand on things maybe not seen. He careful edits said book, and has it goes through edits and edits. Never in the book does he include anything about Sids throwing the fight, instead he includes:
A. how sids attacked Mace with all his dark side might, even makes note of a force push intending to kill mace (clearly implying the opposite of him holding back or throwing the fight and dismissing the notion that he wasn't trying to kill mace)
B. explains how Mace beat Sids, through shatterpoint and slowing him down by breaking the window and letting the rain in. So instead of explaining how the fight was thrown, he instead has a book written explaining how Mace was able to win.3. Then in his commentary he explicitly states that Mace overcame him. Not only does he say that, but he shows EXACTLY that in the movie. We visibly see Mace disarm him. Very clear and unambiguously at that. Instead of discussing how the fight was thrown and a rouse, he instead reaffirms that Mace beat Sids.
Now honestly, you honestly believe all that happened, and yet Lucas' true thought were that Sids threw the fight? I mean really? Do you honestly believe that?
Again I'm waiting for an answer to this
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Things agreed here isn't proof. You need to revisit the MvF rules on what is considered admissible evidence usable in debates. Novelizations aren't one of them. Already explained why the Star Wars novelizations is NO WAY admissible here, they just conflict way too much with the movies.2. Wrong. Once a novel diverges in any way from a movie's path (and vice versa), it is no longer usable as evidence of what happened in the movie as this proves that the novelization is a different version of what occurred (even if it WAS allowed as evidence via the rules). With even a minor deviation between movie and novel at any time whatsoever, the novelization stops becoming a text-based interpretation of the movie but becomes a completely different story of the same characters/settings which followed a similar but NOT identical path as the movie.
There is no circumventing this, if you wish, we can just go ahead and ask for a mod ruling.
3. Except we don't know how Windu's Vapaad worked in the movie as how it worked was never shown or alluded to. Anything you try to put forth is either PURE speculation or is INADMISSIBLE as you are using the novelization w/c did not jive with the actual movie. Again, movie forum.
Here is the actual script of the movie (I think, does anyone know if imsdb is official or just simply transcribed?): http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html
Pls show me where Vapaad was mentioned.
4. We will agree that in the one time where Sids and Windu were pitted against each other, they were peers. This could be due to Vapaad (speculation) or simply due to Windu being his peer in saberskill. We don't know.
1. We eventually have to reach a compromise. Remember are debate in the Dumbleodre vs Yoda thread, we had to agree on a range for his spell to go. I agree that debates should be more grounded with facts, but we will have to compromise and agree for somethings.
2. So woudl you say that the Harry Potter movies aren't canon then? The novels of Harry Potter are the main source since they are what the author originally had. There are plenty of instances in which the movies trail off form the book, so does that mean the movies aren't canon? Again where the books align with the books, those SPECIFIC parts are canon. I'm pretty sure we can agree with that.
I'm fine with that. But I must ask you aren't the fighting styles canon? I believed them to be canon?
3. We do know how Vaapad works though. It reflects the dark energy form the opponent and uses your inner darkness. Windu<Yoda=Sidious. That right there is factually proven and canocially proven. So Windu woudl have had to get to that level somehow and the only logical way would be vaapad. It's also hinted in the films. Notice during the fight, the start, Sidious is overwhelming Mace and then has the saber to his chest and just keeps it there. Then Windu turns it into a bladelock, and we see a facial expression from Mace, that shows some type of it's time to get serious on Windu's face. Now I know for a fact Windu didn't underestimate Sidious. He brought 3 other masters along with him, and had just been within killing range of Sidious so really the best thing to go with would be Vaapad.
4. Well this is when probability comes into play. Based on the evidence presented, Yoda and Sidious are without a doubt peers. Windu has been canocially proven to be below Yoda as a duelist and force weilder. So with that he would be naturally below Sidious who is equal to Yoda. So natural skill is defintlly out. Yoda=Sidious. Windu below Yoda Yoda>Windu. So that means Sidious>Windu(naturally)
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. We eventually have to reach a compromise. Remember are debate in the Dumbleodre vs Yoda thread, we had to agree on a range for his spell to go. I agree that debates should be more grounded with facts, but we will have to compromise and agree for somethings.2. So woudl you say that the Harry Potter movies aren't canon then? The novels of Harry Potter are the main source since they are what the author originally had. There are plenty of instances in which the movies trail off form the book, so does that mean the movies aren't canon? Again where the books align with the books, those SPECIFIC parts are canon. I'm pretty sure we can agree with that.
I'm fine with that. But I must ask you aren't the fighting styles canon? I believed them to be canon?
3. We do know how Vaapad works though. It reflects the dark energy form the opponent and uses your inner darkness. Windu<Yoda=Sidious. That right there is factually proven and canocially proven. So Windu woudl have had to get to that level somehow and the only logical way would be vaapad. It's also hinted in the films. Notice during the fight, the start, Sidious is overwhelming Mace and then has the saber to his chest and just keeps it there. Then Windu turns it into a bladelock, and we see a facial expression from Mace, that shows some type of it's time to get serious on Windu's face. Now I know for a fact Windu didn't underestimate Sidious. He brought 3 other masters along with him, and had just been within killing range of Sidious so really the best thing to go with would be Vaapad.
4. Well this is when probability comes into play. Based on the evidence presented, Yoda and Sidious are without a doubt peers. Windu has been canocially proven to be below Yoda as a duelist and force weilder. So with that he would be naturally below Sidious who is equal to Yoda. So natural skill is defintlly out. Yoda=Sidious. Windu below Yoda Yoda>Windu. So that means Sidious>Windu(naturally)
1. Except that this is not about a establishing guidelines for a fair contest between debaters. This is about actual determination of what is considered valid proof. In w/c case agreements are meaningless. AS THERE ARE ALREADY SPECIFIC RULES ON WHAT IS CONSIDERED VALID PROOF. Specific rules > Agreed guidelines.
2. That is exactly that. Once a book deviates from a movie or vice versa, they are no longer a retelling of a single story but 2 different stories that use similar character/settings/path.
Never said fighting styles were not canon. Just that novelizations and their explanation of the fighting styles and their effects (such as the overall role played by Vapaad in the Sids vs Windu fights) are NOT valid proof for the movie.
3. Again, you are speculating. Unless you can point out where the movie explicitly mentions how Vapaad was aiding Windu. You are just putting meaning and circumstances where none existed to fit your narrative.
4. Again, speculation. Stop speculating and present proof via videos with timestamps (the ONLY acceptable "feats" in this forum).
Seriously, if you want to include ALL Star Wars canon, then either move to the sci fi forum or the all versus forum or even the damned Star Wars forum. This is the MOVIE VS forum, stick to the rules.
link to rules: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f102/t543649.html
Golden rule: MOVIE FEATS ONLY!!!