political correctness/feminism and language

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, I wasn't there, so I can't speak to Bardock's intention. And it appears he's since clarified himself.

I don't think using those words makes you a misogynist. I use *****/pussy/etc. myself and I am sure I rate highly on TI's "crazy left libtard" scale. These words still developed out of a sexist line of thought though. We have to acknowledge that.

As a male, I don't know what it feels like to have my sex be synonymous with "weak and crazy".

Originally posted by red g jacks
i agree.. and i would argue that assh*le is likewise a gender neutral substitute for the insults "dick" and "prick," and that these are (as i noted in my OP ) basically male equivalents for that insult

ush tried to argue that i was wrong in defining them this way, but clearly he was wrong about that, at least by the common american use of these words

Both can be used casually depending on context, but "*****" seems to have a higher...ceiling?

Originally posted by red g jacks
but the word ***** doesn't mean weak and crazy... if it did then i wouldn't call hillary a *****. because she's anything but weak and/or crazy. she's an extremely strong and ruthless political machine. in fact she might actually not be a female human at all but a literal machine that takes on the form of a female human as part of her/its PR strategy. at least i've yet to see any convincing proof that this is not the case.

I think Ush made a very well thought out post on the very first page to explain why b*tch and prick ar not the same category of insult, and I do agree with it. And while I personally try to avoid male gendered insults as well, the idea that it is equivalent to the sexist terms that have been used to keep women down for ages seems ludicrous to me. As a man, prick is an almost meaningless insult to me, it packs no punch whatsoever, because my gender isn't degraded and attacked in the same manner that women are.

As a side note, do you understand the qualitative difference between the n-word and the term "cracker", or do you view them as equal racial insults, because if we have to start there we might have a long way to go to common ground.

Edit

Originally posted by StyleTime
I have to disagree on the dick/prick vs ***** angle. Not only can ***** be potentially more severe, but it can also refer to males...who are "acting like women". i.e. being cowards/pusharound/weak.

Both can be used casually depending on context, but "*****" seems to have a higher...ceiling?

i can also see how the term can be used in a more negative way... e.g. referring to women generically as bitches, sort of like virtually ever rapper ever has done

but calling a woman a ***** who is acting like a ***** is no different from calling a man a prick who is acting like a prick

as far as i am concerned, to argue otherwise is basically condescending towards women and acting like they need to be treated with kid gloves, like children

which btw is something liberals have the tendency to do with virtually every "oppressed" minority.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think Ush made a very well thought out post on the very first page to explain why b*tch and prick ar not the same category of insult, and I do agree with it. And while I personally try to avoid male gendered insults as well, the idea that it is equivalent to the sexist terms that have been used to keep women down for ages seems ludicrous to me. As a man, prick is an almost meaningless insult to me, it packs no punch whatsoever, because my gender isn't degraded and attacked in the same manner that women are.

i didn't find it very compelling.

what about if a woman calls a woman a *****? do you honestly think she intends to degrade her entire gender? or maybe the girl was just acting like a *****

As a side note, do you understand the qualitative difference between the n-word and the term "cracker", or do you view them as equal racial insults, because if we have to start there we might have a long way to go to common ground.

i make the active choice not to be offended by the word cracker, as a white person. because i don't want to give power to bigots

but i have had people shout the term at me while assaulting me... i have also had people shout the term at me from moving cars while i was walking down the street of my own neighborhood, while throwing a glass bottle at me

so yea, it's not a nice term. and people basically use it with the sole intention of offending you. whether it works or not is a different story.

but i'm curious... are you saying "b*tch" has as much brutal history behind it as "n*gger?"

Originally posted by red g jacks
but the way i used the term, they basically mean the same thing. except one refers to a man and the other refers to a woman

i can also see how the term can be used in a more negative way... e.g. referring to women generically as bitches, sort of like virtually ever rapper ever has done

but calling a woman a ***** who is acting like a ***** is no different from calling a man a prick who is acting like a prick

as far as i am concerned, to argue otherwise is basically condescending towards women and acting like they need to be treated with kid gloves, like children

which btw is something liberals have the tendency to do with virtually every "oppressed" minority.

I disagree on the kid gloves thing though. It happens but it's not as common as one might think.

Originally posted by red g jacks
his argument was basically "because men have more power"

i didn't find it very compelling.

what about if a woman calls a woman a *****? do you honestly think she intends to degrade her entire gender? or maybe the girl was just acting like a *****
i view them both as racial insults... but one has more history behind it and as a result is more potent

i make the active choice not to be offended by the word cracker, as a white person. because i don't want to give power to bigots

but i have had people shout the term at me while assaulting me... i have also had people shout the term at me from moving cars while i was walking down the street of my own neighborhood, while throwing a glass bottle at me

so yea, it's not a nice term. and people basically use it with the sole intention of offending you. whether it works or not is a different story.

but i'm curious... are you saying "b*tch" has as much brutal history behind it as "n*gger?"

I think when a woman calls another a woman a ***** she is subject to the same misogynist indoctrination that men are, and uses the additional sexist power that the word has to put down the other woman. She is harming herself with that, but it can often be hard to see that.

I am not saying that b*tch has the same or a comparable history to the n-word, however I am saying that b*tch as well as all sort of other gendered insults for women have a much, much more destructive and harmful history than any gendered insult for men, which is why they are so much worse, and not comparable.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think when a woman calls another a woman a ***** she is subject to the same misogynist indoctrination that men are, and uses the additional sexist power that the word has to put down the other woman. She is harming herself with that, but it can often be hard to see that.

I am not saying that b*tch has the same or a comparable history to the n-word, however I am saying that b*tch as well as all sort of other gendered insults for women have a much, much more destructive and harmful history than any gendered insult for men, ehich is why they are so much worse, and not comparable.

Stop talking about Hilary. It's my job.

Damnit, you edited you sly dog you.

The saddest and most hilarious thing is watching gays/minorities/women etc fight over who is the biggest victim. They never argue about why they allowed themselves to become victims in the first place, though.

Are you this bad ass in person? If so we gotta hang.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think when a woman calls another a woman a ***** she is subject to the same misogynist indoctrination that men are, and uses the additional sexist power that the word has to put down the other woman. She is harming herself with that, but it can often be hard to see that.

a woman calls another woman a ***** just cause she's been indoctrinated by the patriarchy? not because it's a common term which just so happens to be gendered? yea.. that's not at all condescending

I am not saying that b*tch has the same or a comparable history to the n-word, however I am saying that b*tch as well as all sort of other gendered insults for women have a much, much more destructive and harmful history than any gendered insult for men, which is why they are so much worse, and not comparable.

Originally posted by long pig
The saddest and most hilarious thing is watching gays/minorities/women etc fight over who is the biggest victim. They never argue about why they allowed themselves to become victims in the first place, though.

Yeah, why didn't they just choose to have all the advantages society extends to straight, white men...

Originally posted by red g jacks
that sounds like a crock of shit to me

a woman calls another woman a ***** just cause she's been indoctrinated by the patriarchy? not because it's a common term which just so happens to be gendered? yea.. that's not at all condescending

let's hear it, then. maybe i'm just ignorant. what is the terrible historical legacy of the word *****?

The reason the term is so prevalent is because of patriarchy.

"The first serious rise in the usage of ***** begins at 1920 – exactly the same year as another feminist milestone in the United States: suffrage. The 19th amendment to the US constitution was ratified on August 18th, 1920. After decades of struggle, women finally received the right to vote. But as women became more public, so too did their critics. Now that women were appearing more and more on the American stage, the insult ***** began to slip slowly into popular discourse.

Of the books published in 1915 that contain the word “*****,” all are journals of dogs or veterinary medicine, law books explaining cases involving dogs, and the occasional court case in which the transcript includes some man calling another a “son of a *****.”

Within the books published in 1925, merely 10 years later but on the other side of the 19th amendment, there is fiction, magazine articles, and even some quotes from news sources that use ***** to insult a woman. Through the years this trend continues – in fact, by 1930 references to the word as an insult to a woman outnumber the references to a female dog.

So what changed?

The answer lies in the connotation of the insult itself. Of the publications from this period, the uses of ***** can be grouped into three categories of meaning:

Malicious or consciously attempting to harm
Difficult, annoying, or interfering
Sexually brazen or overly vulgar
These three traits combined form a perfect picture of the angry 1st wave feminist that many suffragist opponents feared, a kind of anti-lady. The dystopia predicted by those opponents, both men and women, is summed up well in remarks made by a Representative from Alabama in 19186:

There will be no more domestic tranquility in this nation. No more “Home Sweet Home,” no more lullabies to the baby. Suffrage will destroy the best thing in our lives and leave in our hearts an aching void that the world can never fill.

Angry, dangerous, and independent, these suffragists had stomped in and broken up the status quo, interfering in the lives of ordinary folk and harming the “domestic tranquility” that had been the pinnacle of American happiness. This was a new type of woman, one America hadn’t been forced to seriously consider before. There had to be a name for these women. They found one: these new feminists were a bunch of uppity, interfering bitches."

http://clarebayley.com/2011/06/*****-a-history/

Link doesn't work: http://bit.ly/1zBczXV

At any rate, from its earliest modern usage the term has been used to keep women in their place, to stop them from participating in male dominated society. And while the term has evolved in many ways, it is still often used for the same purpose, and when used for a woman seeking to be the first female leader of a country, after 2 and a half centuries of all male leaders, this connotation has to be clear, even if you were actually using it innocently.

Using the term in a derogatory manner is always based in sexism, it just should be avoided generally. And that's not even talking about the many other gendered insults thrown at woman that have served similar or otherwise controlling purposes.

Red g, if you want to call Hillary a b*tch, then you don't need to justify yourself to anybody, Bardock least of all. But please think carefully whether your desire to call her a b*tch comes from the fact that she's a woman or the fact you genuinely don't like her as a person.

I dunno, while the word is gender specific, its still interchangeable. Never heard a woman referred to as a bastard, for example.
This may go more towards putting men down by feminizing them, though; a continuation of the school yard "you throw like a girl" mindset.

Way overanalyzing b**ch tbh.

I prefer the word ****. See you next Tuesday.