political correctness/feminism and language

i know this might seem like one of those hot button issue type threads but i don't intend this to be a very heated discussion... this is just something i'm a bit curious about

because i can't help but notice that the language that is considered acceptable/not acceptable seems to keep changing. this could be a good thing or a not so good thing, depending on your perspective/priorities.

on the one hand i understand the value of not using "hate speech..." i.e. not calling black people *******, gay people *******, jewish people kykes, etc

and i understand the value of not being sexist... i.e. referring to women generically as "bitches" etc

but there was a conversation on here not too long ago which i thought was sort of interesting. this is just an example so bear with me. but i was talking about hillary clinton with bardock and he said i was using misogynist code. now i honestly have never heard of misogynist code, and i don't consider myself a misogynist. but in the post i called her a *****, which i assume is what he was referring to?

and my question is... does calling a single woman a ***** make you misogynist? or is this a misogynist thing to do?

cause i thought it was referring to women as bitches generically which was misogynist... and which many of my favorite rappers are guilty of
but i thought it was fair game to call a single woman a *****... it's a statement about her character, not women in general

now i know the counter argument might be that since it's a gender specific insult, it's still sexist. and maybe it is sexist to an extent... but does it indicate an actual hatred of women?

if so... then what about calling someone a pussy? yes, i'm assuming?
well what about calling a guy a prick or a dick... is that misandrist? why or why not? it seems just as gender specific.

if the answer to all these questions is yes... then i suppose maybe i am just not fit to live in this PC society... because i like using vulgar language and it sort of irritates me that my roster of vulgar insults is growing smaller by the day, all in the name of some vague utopian agenda to bring about equality through policing language. doesn't that sound a bit... dunno... stalinist or orwellian to you?

what do you guys think

edit- thread related
YouTube video

but there was a conversation on here not too long ago which i thought was sort of interesting. this is just an example so bear with me. but i was talking about hillary clinton with bardock and he said i was using misogynist code. now i honestly have never heard of misogynist code, and i don't consider myself a misogynist. but in the post i called her a *****, which i assume is what he was referring to?

Well, considering the word is bleeped out, maybe?

A thing about some of the language is it's not necessarily purposeful- descriptors used on one group are similar but less-positive than those used on another.

And we all live in a world where a large number of people alive now remember when being openly part of the KKK was socially acceptable, and was equally behind in other areas. Heck, we *just* moved gay from 'something to use as an insult' to 'something ok' within our lifetimes. So really, it's no surprise that our language is borked, and being told that we're using some words that aren't helping and basically exist to describe one group different than another shouldn't be surprising or be taken as an insult. We got handed this language after all, we didn't make it ourselves, and we can adjust it to be better.

now i know the counter argument might be that since it's a gender specific insult, it's still sexist. and maybe it is sexist to an extent... but does it indicate an actual hatred of women?

Not in the deliberate sense, but think about how 'fun' it is to walk around and hear a lot of people casually using insults that hit you too, even when they're supposedly be primarily targeted at someone else. And knowing that society has an entire class of insults just for your group.

because i like using vulgar language and it sort of irritates me that my roster of vulgar insults is growing smaller by the day

Personally, I think sex insults are pretty low-hanging to begin with, with some exceptions. Sex is great, after all. And ones based on someone's group (i.e. implying a guy is too girly or vice-versa) have way too much collateral in who they hit.

Take it as an incentive to get creative with your insults.

Read up on some foreign language ones. There's some pretty great bizarre ones in other countries, and consider also how less-familiar insults often hit harder. Pick and chose the best ones.

Make your own. Yadda yadda.

Peoples feelings have reached epic levels of feminism.

I don't see Trump complaining when people make fun on his hair. Or Christy whining about people making fun of his weight, I call him fat all the time and Trumps hair is aweful. And you know what who gives a shit!

They embrace it and make jokes.

Maybe everyone should man the hell up and grab their respective sacks, but then again masculinity is under attack and it's all about "being in touch with your feminine side."

There was a day when men were men, and women were women.

Just because we pump out food full of garbage and our kids full of hormones and some think "oh I'm a woman, and nature or God made a mistake."

Complete bs.

This world has filled up with a bunch of weak jawed cry babies. To think now that kids kill themselves over Internet bullying.

Whatever mankind has become is a far shadow to how we started out.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial

Whatever mankind has become is a far shadow to how we started out.

We are better than early mankind in nearly every way imaginable.

Except emotional maturity.

Identity politics caused this.

"If you dislike a person you dislike all people who share that persons likeness." Except white, f*ck those cis gendered asshats.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Peoples feelings have reached epic levels of feminism.

I don't see Trump complaining when people make fun on his hair. Or Christy whining about people making fun of his weight, I call him fat all the time and Trumps hair is aweful. And you know what who gives a shit!

They embrace it and make jokes.

Maybe everyone should man the hell up and grab their respective sacks, but then again masculinity is under attack and it's all about "being in touch with your feminine side."

There was a day when men were men, and women were women.

Just because we pump out food full of garbage and our kids full of hormones and some think "oh I'm a woman, and nature or God made a mistake."

Complete bs.

This world has filled up with a bunch of weak jawed cry babies. To think now that kids kill themselves over Internet bullying.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts, as well.

But I would change the language to be less sexist such as "man up" and "grab their sacks." 😆 😆 😆

👆

Not engaging with the full debate here, red g- though to be honest your OP kinda smacks of not being interested debating the idea but attacking it- but to your particular point about it logically being misandry if a guy calls another guy a dick-

Prejudicial language is exceptionally context sensitive. So there are two major ways in which that's not the same at all. First of all because it has never been used in the context of ridiculing or abusing a weaker power group. Secondly, because it's being spoken by the traditionally dominant power group to itself, not from a powerful group to a less powerful one.

So a man saying 'pussy' potentially becomes prejudicial because it ticks those boxes- it can be seen in the cultural context of oppression of women, and it is being used by those traditionally associated with the oppression towards the oppressed (even when said by a man to a man, it is effectively now here invoking the cultural position of the weaker group into its meaning).

I'm not making some broad 'all use of that language is sexist' argument necessarily- I am being neutral there- but I am explaining that, whilst it may be tempting to see them as equal, they are not equivalent due to the culturally loaded nature of language,

but i think that calling a guy a prick is roughly equivalent to calling a woman a ***** in the common (american) vernacular...

both terms mean roughly the same thing.. that the person in question is being intolerable

when you dress drown all that feminist propaganda you just loaded the situation with, what you're saying is it's ok to point out an unpleasant male, but not an unpleasant female... because.... patriarchy

A good measuring stick is seeing which gender specific words are censored here.
Prick obviously isnt...

Originally posted by red g jacks
but i think that calling a guy a prick is roughly equivalent to calling a woman a ***** in the common (american) vernacular...

both terms mean roughly the same thing.. that the person in question is being intolerable

when you dress drown all that feminist propaganda you just loaded the situation with, what you're saying is it's ok to point out an unpleasant male, but not an unpleasant female... because.... patriarchy

See what I mean about you not being interested in debate? You open by saying you don't want it to be heated, but you immediately call a reasoned explanation of a point of your argument 'feminist propaganda'. Quite aside from the fact that I was not approaching this from a feminist position at all- it was pure language theory- that's simply you making an emotional attack instead of trying to make an effort to understand, which is exactly what makes things heated. Try to engage rather than just bat away in such a hostile manner.

Ultimately, you are mistaken in thinking they have the same cultural meaning. To be honest, you are a bit weird in thinking they are even semantically equivalent- 'prick' is used to mean 'idiot' or 'stupidly annoying' (because male genitals look funny), whilst 'pussy' is used to mean weak or cowardly (rooted in women being lesser than men). 'Your word comes into the same area- it's used constantly in relation to weakness.

If you are concerned about being seen as misogynist, you really need to reel in that immediate 'feminist propaganda' shout at any attempt at explanation. That's a real clue to misogyny right there. I would not have made bardock's accusation as you report it, but you're pretty much painting yourself into that corner now.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
See what I mean about you not being interested in debate? You open by saying you don't want it to be heated, but you immediately call a reasoned explanation of a point of your argument 'feminist propaganda'. Quite aside from the fact that I was not approaching this from a feminist position at all- it was pure language theory- that's simply you making an emotional attack instead of trying to make an effort to understand, which is exactly what makes things heated. Try to engage rather than just bat away in such a hostile manner.

Ultimately, you are mistaken in thinking they have the same cultural meaning. To be honest, you are a bit weird in thinking they are even semantically equivalent- 'prick' is used to mean 'idiot' or 'stupidly annoying' (because male genitals look funny), whilst 'pussy' is used to mean weak or cowardly (rooted in women being lesser than men).

as for the comparison... maybe you just don't understand american english the same way i don't quite understand your british version

because in mainstream america, a prick is a guy who is uptight, ornery, unpleasant

and a b|tch is basically a female version of the same thing

if you address this basic point then i will be interested in a debate or maybe even a clarification

otherwise not really.

edit... btw the forum's censors are absurd
b i t c h = *****
yet make it plural and it's all good, bitches.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
Except emotional maturity.

Identity politics caused this.

"If you dislike a person you dislike all people who share that persons likeness." Except white, f*ck those cis gendered asshats.

Great post

My two cents: desiring that people consider and reflect on how their language and behavior might affect other people who are different from them and perhaps change their language and behavior to be less offensive isn't unreasonable, nor is it being a crybaby. In fact, those who come closer to being crybabies are the ones who complain about being "oppressed" by "PCness"

Originally posted by Ushgarak
See what I mean about you not being interested in debate? You open by saying you don't want it to be heated, but you immediately call a reasoned explanation of a point of your argument 'feminist propaganda'. Quite aside from the fact that I was not approaching this from a feminist position at all- it was pure language theory- that's simply you making an emotional attack instead of trying to make an effort to understand, which is exactly what makes things heated. Try to engage rather than just bat away in such a hostile manner.

Ultimately, you are mistaken in thinking they have the same cultural meaning. To be honest, you are a bit weird in thinking they are even semantically equivalent- 'prick' is used to mean 'idiot' or 'stupidly annoying' (because male genitals look funny), whilst 'pussy' is used to mean weak or cowardly (rooted in women being lesser than men). 'Your word comes into the same area- it's used constantly in relation to weakness.

If you are concerned about being seen as misogynist, you really need to reel in that immediate 'feminist propaganda' shout at any attempt at explanation. That's a real clue to misogyny right there. I would not have made bardock's accusation as you report it, but you're pretty much painting yourself into that corner now.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I look at your well-thought out posts, and then I look at the sort of half-baked posts TI marks out as a "good post." The gap is remarkable.

Cry about it too, by the way, your post was great.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Cry about it too, by the way, your post was great.

This is my face right now. g_serious

You like dropping my name I get it.

I don't think of it as name dropping when you posted just before I did and I was commenting on that post.

I'd think of it as "name dropping" if I took a dig at you in a thread you hadn't even posted in.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think of it as name dropping when you posted just before I did and I was commenting on that post.

I'd think of it as "name dropping" if I took a dig at you in a thread you hadn't even posted in.

So because I didn't say Ush's post was great, but someone else's was, you name drop. Gotcha.

Funny you agree with the liberal posts of liberals, and I agree with the more conservative less PC posts, I didn't see you agree or say great post to mine, so why would you say "Oh Look TI didn't say this was a good post." Its pretty stupid of you.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So because I didn't say Ush's post was great, but someone else's was, you name drop. Gotcha.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Nope. I was pointing out that your standard for "great post" is lower than mine. My idea of a great post contains a well-thought-out argument.

Good for you, but what does it have to do with your opinion on my opinion of a good post, did you see me disagree with Ush? Btw when did you become the moderating opinionator,

Nvm dont answer that, This is my last post regarding this stupid exchange.