Vandar Tokare vs. Kanan Jarrus

That seems like a highly suspect base for your assumption. Isn't it possible Vrook was on a mission at the time or was otherwise occupied or that not all of the powerful Jedi were on planet at the time?

If it didn't happen within the official timeline it's not usable. That's Vrook's feat, correct? We're discussing Vandar meaning unless you buy into the reasoning for Vandar being more powerful then Vrook because Vandar was not on Katarr it doesn't have any bearing on Vandar's capabilities.

Given its a non canon scene it doesn't really matter though even if it wasn't we couldn't assume it was her two force sensitive companions anyways.

So aside from non canon cutscenes and wonky power scaling logic does Vandar actually have anything?

Originally posted by SunRazer
That, and the fact that Vandar's essentially analogous to Yoda for the KotOR era and is a stated leader of the Council. Not that either inherently mean he's more powerful than the others, but based on holistic portrayal, that's easily inferred.

Actually, being the leader of the Council, and through that the Order, does require you to be the greatest amongst the Jedi.

Now granted this isn't always the case -- Barsen'Thor/Hero of Tython and Satele Shan are two exceptions -- but judging the rule by the exception would be an anecdotal fallacy, so it shouldn't apply to Vandar.

Isn't that also the case with the Jedi leadership during the Russaan War? I mean, Raskta and Hoth were likely the best Jedi combatants of their era correct? IIRC Hoth was just the general of the Jedi forces and I don't really Raskta having any special position in the Jedi Order other then being a battle master and former lightsaber instructor.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That seems like a highly suspect base for your assumption. Isn't it possible Vrook was on a mission at the time or was otherwise occupied or that not all of the powerful Jedi were on planet at the time?

I don't think any mission would take precedence over trying to find out where the Sith threat came from.

If it didn't happen within the official timeline it's not usable.

It is if it's an accurate reflection of the character's abilities. Vrook doesn't magically grow in power because of some storyline changes, lol.

That's Vrook's feat, correct? We're discussing Vandar meaning unless you buy into the reasoning for Vandar being more powerful then Vrook because Vandar was not on Katarr it doesn't have any bearing on Vandar's capabilities.

Whether it's a holistic approach or that quote, Vandar looks to be more powerful than Vrook. Vandar's leadership of the Council only adds more credence to that approach. There's a couple of indications of Vandar's supremacy - you can argue that each of these indications isn't concrete, but given just how many there are, I think it makes a solid case overall.

Given its a non canon scene it doesn't really matter though even if it wasn't we couldn't assume it was her two force sensitive companions anyways.

No, but unless there's something directly stopping us from doing so, we can assume that it was two Force sensitives. This isn't about what actually happened, this is about what can happen. So we can assume the best scenario in this event unless there's something prohibiting it (for instance, I wouldn't assume that Kreia was in the party since she utterly curbs Vrook with the Force later on). Barring that, there's no evidential upper limit to Vrook's power, so he could well have done it to two Jedi companions as much as he could've done it to two non-Force sensitives. I'm taking the upper feat because he can do it, not because he canonically did it.

And considering your counterargument to my first point was to rely on speculation for the benefit of your own argument, that you're disallowing me to do so here is a double standard.

But if we're using LS, then once again, Vrook's placed the Exile in Stasis, even if she tried to resist.

So aside from non canon cutscenes and wonky power scaling logic does Vandar actually have anything?

Well, he has "vast telekinetic powers", is one of the most powerful Jedi of the time, is called "legendary", and has Force knowledge/mastery that's well out of Kanan's league.

Grandmaster vs Shit Padawan. Toughie.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't think any mission would take precedence over trying to find out where the Sith threat came from.

It is if it's an accurate reflection of the character's abilities. Vrook doesn't magically grow in power because of some storyline changes, lol.

Whether it's a holistic approach or that quote, Vandar looks to be more powerful than Vrook. Vandar's leadership of the Council only adds more credence to that approach. There's a couple of indications of Vandar's supremacy - you can argue that each of these indications isn't concrete, but given just how many there are, I think it makes a solid case overall.

No, but unless there's something directly stopping us from doing so, we can assume that it was two Force sensitives. This isn't about what actually happened, this is about what can happen. So we can assume the best scenario in this event unless there's something prohibiting it (for instance, I wouldn't assume that Kreia was in the party since she utterly curbs Vrook with the Force later on). Barring that, there's no evidential upper limit to Vrook's power, so he could well have done it to two Jedi companions as much as he could've done it to two non-Force sensitives. I'm taking the upper feat because he can do it, not because he canonically did it.

And considering your counterargument to my first point was to rely on speculation for the benefit of your own argument, that you're disallowing me to do so here is a double standard.

But if we're using LS, then once again, Vrook's placed the Exile in Stasis, even if she tried to resist.

Well, he has "vast telekinetic powers", is one of the most powerful Jedi of the time, is called "legendary", and has Force knowledge/mastery that's well out of Kanan's league.

Not saying it takes precedence but if it would have been an impossibility for Vrook to be there say similar to Yoda having been on Kashyyyk when Mace was gathering a strike team of Jedi to face Sidious then his missing presence would have made sense. Even if that wasn't the case though it seems unlikely that every single powerful Jedi in the Order had gathered there. Again harkening back to RotS Mace left powerful Jedi like Shaak back at the temple to help defend it in case he and the other Jedi were to fail in their objective.

You could try to logically assume he'd be capable of such based his other feats but not on the basis that it occurred in a non canon cutscene that has no bearing on the canon timeline.

I can respect your position but I ultimately have to disagree based on the level that would be scaling him to which is unsupported by any of his other showings.

I'm not questioning your stance as I understand it and use similar reasoning for certain views I myself possess. I'm simply explaining why I don't agree with it.

Can I get the quote for "one of the most powerful Jedi of all time?"

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Isn't that also the case with the Jedi leadership during the Russaan War? I mean, Raskta and Hoth were likely the best Jedi combatants of their era correct? IIRC Hoth was just the general of the Jedi forces and I don't really Raskta having any special position in the Jedi Order other then being a battle master and former lightsaber instructor.

No, because Hoth was a general, not a Grandmaster. To be a general, you need to be a better tactitian. To be a Grandmaster/leader of the Order, you need to be the wisest and most powerful.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Grandmaster vs Shit Padawan. Toughie.

Excuse me? How is Kanan shit when his feats are better then half the named characters in Star Wars? :/

Originally posted by MythLord
No, because Hoth was a general, not a Grandmaster. To be a general, you need to be a better tactitian. To be a Grandmaster/leader of the Order, you need to be the wisest and most powerful.

I believe PoD notes that nearly all the Jedi and Sith gathered on Russan to settle the conflict once and for all. It seems like something the Grandmaster of the Order would be present for. Kaan always mentions Hoth as being his counterpart and main adversary whenever musing about the Jedi forces. You'd think if the GM had been a more powerful individual ( and thus logically a greater threat to Kaan and the Brotherhood ) that's who Kaan's thoughts would have been focused on and that he would have been mentioned by Kaan or one of the Sith during the Broterhood meetings. Then in RoT a team of the most powerful and skilled Jedi are sent to permanently end the Sith by destroying Bane and Zannah. None of the members are noted as having possessed any special rank within the Order.

Except the Bane era is full of some of the shittest Jedi and Sith in the entire mythos, when Kotor is canonically the height of Jedi combat prowess.

This was simply about how rank in the Jedi Order doesn't nessecarily beget power.

Can I get the quote for KOTOR being the height of combat prowess for its time?

If the Grandmaster was present on the Battle of Ruusan, then he's probably not the best tactitian as Hoth was the general.

Not that battlefield tactics equal your strength in the Force...

Originally posted by Selenial
mythos, when Kotor is canonically the height of Jedi combat prowess.

😂

Originally posted by MythLord
If the Grandmaster was present on the Battle of Ruusan, then he's probably not the best tactitian as Hoth was the general.

Not that battlefield tactics equal your strength in the Force...

I'm saying that if the GM was as great a threat to Kaan and the rest of the Brotherhood as Hoth you think he would have been mentioned or gone on the mission to defeat Bane and Zannah.

Originally posted by ImWeakAsF
link plz

Twisting faceup as he dropped, Kanan hit the ground. He looked up into the onrushing mass – and stopped it, with his mind.

It was an odd feeling, like putting on an old article of clothing. It was like the leap, something he had sworn never to do. Not in front of anyone, to be sure.

But now he had done it." - Star Wars: A New Dawn.

"And then he let go. Let go with his mind, and listened as a mountain, denied, found the space where he had landed." - Star Wars: A New Dawn.

"You brought a mountain down on my head!" - Star Wars: A New Dawn.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Can I get the quote for KOTOR being the height of combat prowess for its time?

"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

"The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. "

"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the height of it's power and self confidence"

Which is why KOTOR has tons of amazing swordsmen, oh wait 😂

Originally posted by Selenial
"Even more so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

"The many wars of the era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and force related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others become highly skilled duelists capable of taking on Dark Jedi and Sith in single combat. "

"During this time, the Jedi Order is at the height of it's power and self confidence"

Source?

Originally posted by carthage
Which is why KOTOR has tons of amazing swordsmen, oh wait 😂

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Your debating is farcical, as always.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Source?

Kotor CG.