Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@Stigma, I understand you're trolling, but @Temp, I feel that you underestimate the general lack of common sense of some of your disciples.
Spoiler:
My playful word sparrings with you and Sinious may appear to be petulant, but I have greater aim in mind. For now, know only that "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways."
Genuine discussion on why we should have Valkorion in such a a high esteem is a welcome one.
Originally posted by Sinious
1) Obviously its not based on actual calculation. Point is, if you wanna make that claim(that Plag blitzes), you'll have to calculate that yourself and prove Plagueis is that much faster than HoT. 👆
2) Peer of which incarnation of Sidious? IIRC, their speed were equal way before ROTS so I have no reason to believe Sidious was anywhere near his ROTS self during that part of the novel.
2) Covered by Merchant, really.
Originally posted by Stigma
1) Understood. What we need to remember, however, is from what we see neither HoT or Viti approach Plags in speed.👆2) Covered by Merchant, really.
1) They don't have to approach him to avoid getting blitzed. Especially since we've established that Vitiate is one-shoting this without any trouble. 👆
2) Nothing she said proves the "Plagueis blitzes" argument bro.
Plaguies can outpace bolts at full body speeds, what's Leeners' best speed feat?
EDIT: Never mind IK what you're talking about. That's sorta unquantifiable tbh.
Originally posted by Sinious
1) They don't have to approach him to avoid getting blitzed.
Again, as I have stated in previous posts, greater speed is a sufficient advantage for Plagueis in a combat scenario, especially given that Vitiate cannot dish out anything similar. 👆
Originally posted by Sinious
Especially since we've established that Vitiate is one-shoting this without any trouble.
Originally posted by Sinious
2) Nothing she said proves the "Plagueis blitzes" argument bro.
Originally posted by StigmaBlitzing usually means moving faster than the other side can perceive/react to. And if your argument doesn't involve Vitiate not being able to react at all, it means that he still has time to cast lightning and since Plagueis = Braga in tutamins, Vitiate one-shots him despite being slower. 👆
I had some faith in you and your general wisdom to see that I use "blitz" as an indication of greater speed of Plaguies and a playful remark to get you engaged. You have failed my expectations.
Again, as I have stated in previous posts, greater speed is a sufficient advantage for Plagueis in a combat scenario, especially given that Vitiate cannot dish out anything similar. 👆Not when Vitiate can oneshot him.
I'd like to see you develop an arguement to support this 😛You've already made that argument for me when you said "feats or gtfo" 🙂
Moving as fast as lightning bolt >>> walking slowly towards a saberI'm not talking about right before he dies, I'm talking about the beginning of the fight where HoT can't blitz him despite being in this position.
@Stigma, I sacrificed the blood of approximately 29 SWTORians to post this:
Plagueis Blitzes Kek
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well then you'd have to give in to the speedblitz logic, which is generally inconsistent considering Luke (Someone who was faster then Sidious in their duel as of DE) couldn't blitz Lumiya/Desann, and there's numerous other cases in which force users like Yoda/Luke/Vader didn't outright blitz their opponents. All we have in support of blitzlogic is Sidious blitzing the B-Team (which apparently, correct me if I'm wrong, is now due to surprise rather than speed via new content,) and Sidious moving faster than Maul could visibly perceive in the novel adaptation of their fight. Which is again an inconsistent definition of blitzing given that Roan Shryne saw Vader move faster than he could perceive and faster than anyone other than Yoda, yet was still able to fight Vader without getting lolblitzed, as well as many other relatively mook-y jedi that were featless and could react to Vader just fine.
Plagueis is more combat-ready than Valkorion
This is a blast from the past indeed. This notion has pretty much been put to rest as soon as SWTOR, and specifically SOR, came out. Vitiate whilst possessing Master Surro was directly fighting on the battlefield, casually stomping Lana Beniko and combating one of the most powerful warriors in the Galaxy, aka a protag and his or her trusty companion. Even in vanilla SWTOR Vitiate possessed Kira Carsen and fought head-to-head with the Hero of Tython, his first action to run at the Hero with his Lightsaber. He's obviously understanding of the ways of a fighter/warrior. It's not much different than Talzin, tbh. She's evidently fairly competent in her use of the lightsaber and combat, but is infinitely more at home utilizing her immense force powers to annihilate her foes. Speaking of which...
Plagueis can tank Valky's powers and saber him to death
This is the dude who can easily annihilate four of the most powerful jedi in the Galaxy, while not trying to kill them, while also diverting significant efforts to hold back Vaylin's powers, and destroy their lightsabers in the process. Plagueis hasn't a notable lightning or tutaminis feat to speak of. This is the dude who was considered by the Wrath to be infinitely more powerful than the dread masters, (who could destroy whole fleets with their fear power,) was universally believed to be far too powerful for Revan or the Coalition to handle, considered to be too powerful for the jedi or the sith to stop, etc. This is the dude who, as a disembodied spirit, telepathically subjugated the population of Ziost, then afterward telepathically subjugated the additional jedi and republic soldiers sent by the Republic. This is the dude who, despite not being at his full power, utterly annihilated the planet of Ziost, then proceeded to consume that additional power into himself. As Emperor Valkorion, he's no longer diverting his power to hold back Vaylin, so he'll only be even more powerful. Plagueis hasn't shown anything close to these levels of power, (that he can access without an intense ritual and with Sidious's help.)
Throwing The Bone of Logic
On the whole, one could seriously argue that Nyriss's lightning and Braga's tutaminis is more powerful than Plagueis's, if we go by a feats-only paradigm. When we include logic and reason, however, with Plagueis being implied as pre-DLOTS amp Sidious's equal, we can conclude he's an immensely powerful sith lord, with top tier lightning, TK, and power on the whole. That said, this also applies for Valkorion. Valkorion is considered to be, as aforementioned, infinitely more powerful than the fleet-subduing Dread Masters, far more powerful than Revan or anyone else in the Galaxy, and powerful enough that neither the efforts of the Sith nor the Jedi would be enough to stop him from consuming the Galaxy. Plagueis is absolutely one of the top-tier force users, but I sincerely doubt he'd last against Valkorion's powers, much less overcome them to the point where he can lolrun up to him and stab him to death. There's a reason Sidious chose not to loltank Talzin's force attacks and instead chose to battle with the force, despite being just as if not more powerful. When someone is just as powerful as another force user, but far more skilled, it'd still require all their strength to overcome those powers. And Valkorion is very noticeably more powerful than Plagueis, feats and hype considered.
Skillz, the major flaw in your speed argument is that Luke says he holds back to avoid brushes with the Dark Side, since in DE his attempts to unleash his full power caused him to fall. He also went briefly fell during his duel with Caedus.
Against Desann he wasn't going to go all out and massacre him due to morals.
Last I checked, Plagueis didn't have morals.
