Originally posted by Stigma
I have clarified my position of Plagueis’s speed. It is his advantage and he will make use of it to close the gap. Once he realizes the Force fight with Valdy will be a long and hard one, he always has the option to make it a close quarters fight, which he will win.
This implies that Plagueis would be able to speed past and/or tank through Valkorion's attacks and strike him down at his leisure. Given that speed/reaction time is generally analogous of one's own power, I'm not convinced that Plagueis will be able to zip past Valkorion's attacks and strike him down.
Originally posted by Stigma
I’m not sure why you bring up others like Talzin as they would also be defeated by Plagueis in a duel. ;\
There's little chance that Valkorion would even use a lightsaber in a fight given his immense power, I'm simply explaining that SWTOR! Vitiate knows the ways of battle. Based on your post, I'd wager you're taking Revan Vitiate with too many grains of salt.
Originally posted by Stigma
He reduces people to ash and he doesn’t even need notable tutaminis feats really, when he can catch Valdy’s FL on a saber taking into account his expertise with FL, or outpace him before he starts to spam it.
IIRC the only time Plagueis reduced someone to ash was after he absorbed the energy from a blaster bolts and re-channeled their power. Furthermore, this is pretty much nothing compared to easily overwhelming four of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy while not actually trying to kill them, while also holding back Vaylin's immense power. Hell, even in Revan, Vitiate's FLS was able to overwhelm Revan's tutaminis, which was capable of effortlessly reflecting ash-tier lightning. Considering your argument on Valkorion's speed or lack thereof, you're in turn going to have to prove Plagueis can block lightning powerful enough to accomplish the aforementioned feats.
Originally posted by Stigma
Considered, believed….OK?
Uhh, considering the Wrath well knows both the extent of the Dread Masters and Vitiate's power, I'd wager his critique is pretty supported. With regards to his vast superiority over Revan, it's implied by Marr, the protag, and even Spirit! Revan.
Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis will grant him this favor to become the spirit once again. He cuts Valdy down.
keks all around, considering how much more powerful Valkorion is than his spirit form.
Originally posted by Stigma
Nihilus also annihilated a planet. Does not help him to use this power in a combat scenario, as shown multiple times in multiple threads.
And in turn Nihilus is considered a being with such power that he perceives the universe in a completely different spectacle. 👆
Also, he brings this power to bear in a combat scenario in the form of oneshotting Darths Traya and Sion. His fight against Surik on the Harbinger, he was immensely weakened, and was facing people he couldn't really drain.
Also, it's not solely the fact that Vitiate annihilated a planet. He re-Nathema'd, ffs. His power now is significantly greater.
Originally posted by Stigma
Valky’s power showings in combat do not surpass Plagueis’s.The key is how you can put power into use (e.g,. Kyp Durron), and Plagues has better combo of power/strength/speed and mastery than Valkorion.
Blowing the shit out of the armored Maladian assassins is an excellent TK showing now doubt, but I'm not sure how this compares to Vitiate's application of power in combat, i.e. overwhelming Revan's immense tutaminis and easily defeating 4 of the strongest jedi in the galaxy while not trying to kill them and while holding back Vaylin. The only advantage Plagueis has there is strength, (and while technically speed, Valkorion will be able to react just fine.) And I'm not sure Plagueis being able to bench a hundred more pounds will matter when Valkorion starts spittin' fire. At best it'll help him a bit more in deflecting some lightning.
Originally posted by Stigma
Yet, he can be put on his ass when he has distance advantage, time to prep his FL and nexus amp
This is quite inapplicable to Valkorion, kek. At the time of Revan, sure, but after that point his power was still ever-increasing and he had an additional Revan to feed off of:
"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger."
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
"Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail."
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Furthermore, I've already explained above Valkorion's noted improvements as a head-to-head warrior. He didn't even carry a lightsaber as of Revan! I'd theorize he realized that he should improve his combative prowess after being, "nearly assassinated."
Originally posted by Stigma
This is an interesting parallel you introduced.You’d surely agree that if the Force fight between Talzin and Sidiosu would last too long, Palpatine could always overcome her in a duel?
That's where similarities end. Valkorion doesn't stand toe-to-toe with Plagueis, he notably exceeds him.
Uhh, that implies he'd be powerful enough to walk through her attacks in the first place. It'd still take all his strength to defend against her powers. Talzin being, "a powerhouse who can stand toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious," doesn't have the disclaimer, "unless Sidious whips out his lightsaber." Hell, Sidious had his saber drawn and put it away.
Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis approaches Valkorion’s power levels, but his skill and speed will grant him additional advantage that Valky does not possess.
Covered above.
Originally posted by Stigma
It doesn’t show in his combat showings, though.
I find Valkorion's combat showings to be better than Plagueis's. Did the latter fight anyone even close to Revan, much less defeat them?
Originally posted by Stigma
Not at all. Nyriss’s FL was amped by DS nexus. Plus, she never overcame with it anyone even comparable to Plagueis’s tier.
Plagueis never ashed anyone even comparable to an average jedi knight's tier. Nyriss's casual bolts put Meetra on her ass, And Revan easily redirected her FLS capable of ashing Scourge/Meetra. And yet he was instantaneously overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This implies that Plagueis would be able to speed past and/or tank through Valkorion's attacks and strike him down at his leisure. Given that speed/reaction time is generally analogous of one's own power, I'm not convinced that Plagueis will be able to zip past Valkorion's attacks and strike him down. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There's little chance that Valkorion would even use a lightsaber in a fight given his immense power, .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'm simply explaining that SWTOR! Vitiate knows the ways of battle. Based on your post, I'd wager you're taking Revan Vitiate with too many grains of salt. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
IIRC the only time Plagueis reduced someone to ash was after he absorbed the energy from a blaster bolts and re-channeled their power. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Furthermore, this is pretty much nothing compared to easily overwhelming four of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy while not actually trying to kill them, .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
while also holding back Vaylin's immense power. Hell, even in Revan, Vitiate's FLS was able to overwhelm Revan's tutaminis, which was capable of effortlessly reflecting ash-tier lightning. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Considering your argument on Valkorion's speed or lack thereof, you're in turn going to have to prove Plagueis can block lightning powerful enough to accomplish the aforementioned feats. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Uhh, considering the Wrath well knows both the extent of the Dread Masters and Vitiate's power, I'd wager his critique is pretty supported. With regards to his vast superiority over Revan, it's implied by Marr, the protag, and even Spirit! Revan. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
keks all around, considering how much more powerful Valkorion is than his spirit form. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And in turn Nihilus is considered a being with such power that he perceives the universe in a completely different spectacle. 👆 .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, he brings this power to bear in a combat scenario in the form of oneshotting Darths Traya and Sion. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His fight against Surik on the Harbinger, he was immensely weakened, and was facing people he couldn't really drain. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Also, it's not solely the fact that Vitiate annihilated a planet. He re-Nathema'd, ffs. His power now is significantly greater. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Blowing the shit out of the armored Maladian assassins is an excellent TK showing now doubt, but I'm not sure how this compares to Vitiate's application of power in combat, i.e. overwhelming Revan's immense tutaminis and easily defeating 4 of the strongest jedi in the galaxy while not trying to kill them and while holding back Vaylin.
The only advantage Plagueis has there is strength, (and while technically speed, Valkorion will be able to react just fine.) .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And I'm not sure Plagueis being able to bench a hundred more pounds will matter when Valkorion starts spittin' fire. At best it'll help him a bit more in deflecting some lightning. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This is quite inapplicable to Valkorion, kek. At the time of Revan, sure, but after that point his power was still ever-increasing and he had an additional Revan to feed off of:"REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger."
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
"Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail."
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia) .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Furthermore, I've already explained above Valkorion's noted improvements as a head-to-head warrior. He didn't even carry a lightsaber as of Revan! .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'd theorize he realized that he should improve his combative prowess after being, "nearly assassinated." .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That's where similarities end. Valkorion doesn't stand toe-to-toe with Plagueis, he notably exceeds him. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Uhh, that implies he'd be powerful enough to walk through her attacks in the first place.It'd still take all his strength to defend against her powers. Talzin being, "a powerhouse who can stand toe-to-toe with Darth Sidious," doesn't have the disclaimer, "unless Sidious whips out his lightsaber." Hell, Sidious had his saber drawn and put it away. .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I find Valkorion's combat showings to be better than Plagueis's. Did the latter fight anyone even close to Revan, much less defeat them? .
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis never ashed anyone even comparable to an average jedi knight's tier. Nyriss's casual bolts put Meetra on her ass, And Revan easily redirected her FLS capable of ashing Scourge/Meetra. And yet he was instantaneously overwhelmed by Vitiate's lightning.
Originally posted by Stigma
The problem with your position is that Plagueis demonstrated superior speed and his standing as about equal to Sidious makes a Force fight between the two to be close enough. Plagueis will make use of the advantage he possesses—speed and skill, advantages that are bigger than Vitiate’s edge in power.
So you're willing to accept Plagueis's more demonstrated superior reactions/speeds, something (for the most part) fundamentally relevant to the overall power of its user, but not Valkorion's infinitely superior Force Lightning, something (for the most part) fundamentally relevant to the overall power of its user? You do fully see and understand the double standard there, right? I mean, you're even basing that a pure force fight between Valkorion and Plagueis would be, "close enough" due to the fact that he's implied to be pre-DLOTS amp TPM Sidious's equal, while not citing any actual force feats Plagueis has shown in combat comparable to what Valkorion has. Implications work both ways. 👆
Originally posted by Stigma
I recall him using FL on other occasion, I will check it.
Not against another force user that proves he even matches Nyriss's FLS, kek. As explained in the point above, if you're going to go by feats only, you'll have to prove Plagueis's lightning is any more powerful than Nyriss's, much less even close to Vitiate's.
Originally posted by Stigma
Dude, someone who is about Sidious’s equal as of TPM can do the same, and with his superior speed and skill to Vitiate, do it even better than Valky.
Let me ask you this: How/in what way do you personally believe Plagueis defeats the same strike team with his force powers?
Originally posted by Stigma
His prepped and amped FLS, yes. Not impressed.
>accuses TOR of unsubstantiated wank
>is more impressed with Plagueis's Nyriss-level lightning feats, comprised of ashing a mook after absorbing blaster bolts, and killing a random dark side prophetess with lightning.
>ok b0ss
Also, "prepped?" It was a bit more like, "charged fast enough to the point in which Revan knew he couldn't stop the attack."
Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis’s immense power and his mastery over FL denote that he knows how to approach it. It is not a question of skill, as Plagues can hold his saber in front t of him and stabilize this with his immense power in the Force.
Proof of Plagueis's immense power and mastery over FL or ability to block and defend force lightning of Valkorion's? Hell, proof that Valkorion doesn't turn Plagueis into a puppet, given that he has no TP feats even close to Valkorion?
Spoiler:
For the sake of your own argument, I'd wager that you'll concede the blitz part, and that speeds of movement/reaction are (for the most part) relative to one's overall power, as well as (for the most part) such things as TK/lightning/TP.
Originally posted by Stigma
Perhaps. Characters wanking other characters is nothing new in TOR, though.
And if we go by wank, Plagueis is wanked as “the most powerful Sith who ever lived” as of TPM cool That’s seals it then thumb up
Considering a noticeable portion of your argument relies on the "wank," that Plagueis=Pre-DLOTS Amp TPM Sidious, cool story bro. 👆
On the back cover of a book, kek.
Originally posted by Stigma
Besides, let’s keep it embodied Vitiate vs. Plagueis, as it was intended.
Uhh, did you miss the part where I said Valkorion was more powerful than his spirit self, given that he re-Nathema'd?
Originally posted by Stigma
He can perceive universe through pink glasses, doesn’t change the fact that Sidious/Yoda/Plagueis speedblitz him FTW.
Which inevitably leads back to my points about Valkorion above.
Originally posted by Stigma
Dude, I can one-shot Traya and Sion ;} And so can a combatant who is on Sidious tier.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Nihilus can indeed apply his drain in combat.
Spoiler:
Proof that Plagueis can resist Nihilus's drain?
Originally posted by Stigma
Couldn’t?
Uhh, yeah. Couldn't drain Meetra due to being a wound, Visas due to having a force bond with her, and Mandalore because either he didn't warrant Nihilus's notice or Meetra and Visas's presence deterred him from letting himself be weakened further.
Originally posted by Stigma
And?
Vitiate already had better feats/hype in concert than Plagueis to begin with, and his re-Nathema'ing makes him even more powerful.
Originally posted by Stigma
Or not just fine?
Covered above.
Originally posted by Stigma
Or … if you didn’t overlook Plagueis’s massive speed/skill advantage it would be clearer.
If you didn't apply a double standard on Plagueis's amazeballs force powerz and Valkorion's reaction speed, it'd be clear that Plagueis's speed won't be a deciding factor.
Originally posted by Stigma
Because none of the people he faced were as skilled/fast as Plagueis, so obviously he didn’t feel threatened. Although a well-placed saber throw could have cut him down
Two different incarnations of Valkorion.
Originally posted by Stigma
Nice wank. thumb up
Your concession is accepted here, considering your response has absolutely nothing to do with the intended point. 👆
Originally posted by Stigma
Maybe. Or maybe he stayed the same.
My stance has merit on this facet, as I've already pointed out. Yours doesn't. 👆
Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord that ever lived up to PT. Not sure how Valkorion notably exceeds him cool
You know you're faltering when you begin resorting to the back cover written by the editors. Next thing you know I'll be saying Valkorion is the, "god of the gods," and wills Plagueis out of existence.
Originally posted by Stigma
Obviously.
The point being however, that while Valkorion and Plagueis are reasonably close enough in power, sowe look for where advantages appear, and Plagueis notably exceeds Valkorion in speed/strength/skill.
Yeah, but as I said about Talzin and Sidious, the latter would still need to be powerful enough to tank her attacks in the first place. Plagueis is notably inferior to Valkorion in the ways of the force, and again, the only edge there that will bear any real effect is skill. Plagueis can't utilize that skill if he can't get to Valkorion in the first place.
Originally posted by Stigma
He fought someone as on the same speed tier as himself and Sidious, and he fought someone trained specifically to counter his saber style, and came out on top. While Venamis has no real force feats to speak of, it can be assumed judging by his battle with Plagueis that he is just below Hego.
Already discussed speed, and kek @ Venamis being Revan-level. Also, I don't even think that was peak Hego.
Originally posted by Stigma
None of them are as powerful as Plagueis, though.
You completely missed the point, here.