Originally posted by Sinious
Im talking about the vagueness of the concept at hand compared to the parts of the novel.Is this about giving Sidious the "too fast for Anakin to perceive" feat? If you can honestly justify that with a better argument, I'd be more than happy to support it.
I don't see how there's anything vague about Sith being unable to become spirits. I'm also not saying it has any connection to Anakin.
I was just throwing that out there for discussion.
Originally posted by Darth ThorImo, they don't believe in an afterlife, they're just egoless enough to accept that they will become nothing.
Because the Jedi accept an afterlife, becoming part of the living force (whether coming back in ghost form or not).The Sith don't. To them Life is everything. And even a miserable existence is superior to Non-Existance for them.
Originally posted by The_TempestMaybe they are just unable to become spirits in natural ways? So they have to use sorcery etc. to maintain their existence after death?
I don't see how there's anything vague about Sith being unable to become spirits. I'm also not saying it has any connection to Anakin.I was just throwing that out there for discussion.
Originally posted by Sinious
Imo, they don't believe in an afterlife, they're just egoless enough to accept that they will become nothing.
That's a good concept, but Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi make it clear Jedi do believe in an afterlife even if Jedi don't believe they'll keep their individuality:
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not."
^ As you can see it was a clear transformation from one form to another they believed in. Even claiming we should "Rejoice" the transformation.
Originally posted by Darth ThorObviously, they transform into the force. I wouldn't call that afterlife though. I mean, for it to be afterlife, there would have to be life involved and the cosmic force represents nothingness, not life.
That's a good concept, but Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi make it clear Jedi do believe in an afterlife even if Jedi don't believe they'll keep their individuality:"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not."
^ As you can see it was a clear transformation from one form to another they believed in. Even claiming we should "Rejoice" the transformation.
Originally posted by The_TempestMeh.
but then they'd be able to become spirits, which contradicts canon.
Originally posted by Sinious
Obviously, they transform into the force. I wouldn't call that afterlife though. I mean, for it to be afterlife, there would have to be life involved and the cosmic force represents nothingness, not life..
What? The force is nothing?
If they become nothing they wouldn't be part of the Force. Their soul/spirit clearly loves on just as part of a greater whole.
Remember on the force ghost episodes of S6 TCW, Ki-Adi'Mundi didn't object to people living on after doing. But only to the idea of them retaining their former identity.
Originally posted by Darth ThorI remember what you're referring to but can you share what he exactly says there?
What? The force is nothing?If they become nothing they wouldn't be part of the Force. Their soul/spirit clearly loves on just as part of a greater whole.
Remember on the force ghost episodes of S6 TCW, Ki-Adi'Mundi didn't object to people living on after doing. But only to the idea of them retaining their former identity.
Also, by nothing, I meant in the sense of time and space as existence is absent in the cosmic force. You're making it sound like Jedi have fooled themselves and believe in another life to surpass their fear of death. They don't fear death in the first place and don't need any afterlife dreams to achieve that. Its their personal training and lifestyle that give them that maturity. That is what distinguishes Jedi and Sith, not what they think about afterlife.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Was it even stated that the contradictory excerpts in novel are non-canon in Legends? Seeing as Lucas actually approved of those contradictions in approving/editing the novel. Surely if he didn't want those contradictions, he wouldn't have approved of them/he would have edited them out.And that kind of renders most of the comic versions non-canon, lol. Also, Legends doesn't operate under a canon hierarchy since it's all non-canon, so everything in Legends is of the same value.
The movies represent the final version of the story according to Lucas, and therefore, they overwrite anything that contradicts them on a novel level. And Legends also sees the movies as the highest form of canon. I don't see much use in even attempting to argue that. Movies > Novels.
Originally posted by Sinious
I remember what you're referring to but can you share what he exactly says there?Also, by nothing, I meant in the sense of time and space as existence is absent in the cosmic force. You're making it sound like Jedi have fooled themselves and believe in another life to surpass their fear of death. They don't fear death in the first place and don't need any afterlife dreams to achieve that. Its their personal training and lifestyle that give them that maturity. That is what distinguishes Jedi and Sith, not what they think about afterlife.
I've quoted Yoda's line in ROTS but will have to get my S6 Dvd out later for Ki-Adi'Mundi's line.
No I didn't mean that. The Jedi were obviously selfless (ideally).
What I'm saying is their beliefs about Death are very different to the Sith who believe there is literally nothing, and Fear that, which is why they Cling so hard to Life.
Originally posted by Darth ThorImo, they both know what happens after death. Its just that one is more okay with it.
I've quoted Yoda's line in ROTS but will have to get my S6 Dvd out later for Ki-Adi'Mundi's line.No I didn't mean that. The Jedi were obviously selfless (ideally).
What I'm saying is their beliefs about Death are very different to the Sith who believe there is literally nothing, and Fear that, which is why they Cling so hard to Life.
Originally posted by EmperordmbHow so?
The last line of the Jedi Code makes their POV pretty clear IMO
In canon, the Jedi believe they become part of the Force. They weren't aware they could retain their consciousness and personality after death in a spirit / entity type form. That's pretty obvious and has been said time and time again. The Jedi Council even specifically says it word-by-word in Season 6.
Even in Legends, the Jedi Path asserts that post Ruusan Reformation Jedi don't believe in Force Ghosts. So that's both the Legends and Disney continuity that have movie era Jedi not believing in it.
And that's not what I'm arguing. I'm merely arguing that the Jedi's belief that they are becoming part of something greater rather than just becoming nothing is a pretty important distinction in their philosophy.
Originally posted by EmperordmbI never said they don't become one with the force lol.
There is no death, there is only the Force.They seem to be content in their spirits becoming one with the Force. They aren't like "I'ma end up being nothing and I'm okay with it!"
Becoming one with the Force could very well mean they become nothing in organic understanding of existence. After all, they are losing their individuality which is the whole point of death. Becoming one with a universal energy is not something an individualistic being would want and that is why Sith don't wanna die where Jedi don't care about their individuality.
That is what differentiates them, not their "beliefs" on afterlife imo.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
What I'm saying is their beliefs about Death are very different to the Sith who believe there is literally nothing, and Fear that, which is why they Cling so hard to Life.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
DP said the fact that Jedi can become ghosts but Sith can't is a good reason to explain Jedi dogma. That obviously isn't true.
Not exactly what I said. Read EmperorDmb's quote of mine above. It's more about the Sith Fearing death and Craving Life above all else. Whilst the Jedi are content with losing their individuality and becoming one with the Force, Wanting to end up Part of The Goodness of the Universe which is a noble desire.
What I didn't say was The Jedi are only good because they believe they get rewarded in Heaven afterwards.