Re: Revan is "far more powerful" than Darth Nihilus
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[b]1.) Revan, as of the Battle of Malachor V since that was the last time Meetra Surik has ever seen Revan, was more powerful than anyone else she had ever met, meaning he is more powerful than Darth Nihilus:"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
2.) Meetra Surik was in complete and utter awe over Darth Nihilus' destructive capabilities:
"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."
3.) Meetra Surik found Darth Nihilus to be "far more powerful" than she had originally believed above when she confronted him:
"He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed."
4.) Revan had become "far more powerful" than the last time Meetra Surik had seen him:
"Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now."
5.) I found examples in Star Wars literature where Drew Karpshyn uses "command of the Force" to describe one's connection to the Force / raw power:
"Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate the unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style."
"The lightsaber was an extension of the user and his or her command of the Force."
"But his command of the dark side was too powerful for it to hold him for more than a split second."
6.) In particular, this passage makes an explicit link between power and command of the Force:
"Was it possible there was some other essential element in the process that he was missing? Was there one more secret waiting to be unlocked that would finally allow him to create a Holocron so he could pass his wisdom and knowledge on to his successors? Or was the failure in him? Did he simply lack power? Was his command of the dark side somehow less than that of the ancient Sith Lords like Freedon Nadd?"
7.) Also in other works, we see "command of the Force" as a synonym for one's potential / raw power:
"Sometimes he felt there was so little he need to teach his Padawan. Even to Obi-Wan, who knew him so well, Anakin's command of the Force could be astonishing."
"His sensitivity was far from perfectly attuned and he sincerely doubted he would ever attain half the command of the Force that Kenobi had possessed? though the old man had expressed great confidence in Luke's potential. "
8.) Darth Malak was believed to may have eventually surpassed Darth Revan, meaning he also surpassed Darth Nihilus:
"When Revan fell we had hoped the Sith threat was ended. But Malak quickly assumed Revan's role, and has embraced the dark side power as fully as his old master ever did. Now Malak leads the Sith armada against the Republic. Hate and vengeance for his master's death draw Malak ever further down the path of the dark side, fueling his powers until they surpass those of his old master."
[/B]
Malak never surpassed REVAN DO you hear me??? he die Jealous of him forever, he always had an inferiority complexe about Revan...
Meetra surik is a wound in the force.... Nihilus a cipher that drink life energy and sould an convert them in pure ennergy he anihilate them !! and progressivly loose is power, and become more hungry and dangerous (more he is hungry more powerfull is his drain !!)
Meetra gain xp for each kill she does in the game, the game justify the mecanic by saying that at each kill she draw the strengh of her victim... (Jedi council scene) So to determine her power, humhum.. And before we know nothing we just know the light wall feat, wich indicate great level of mastery.. Not Raw power
Revan is an ocean of ranw power, there is a an endless tream flowing through his body.. It is never really explain clearly, but IT IS FREAKIN OBVIOUS !!!!! So of course he is more powerfull than Nihilus, he have more raw power more knwoledge more mastery... And his raw power state is stable...
Hate and vengeance for his master's death draw Malak ever further down the path of the dark side
Malak propaganda...
It confirm my theory that Malak said Darth Revan is dead, his ship had been aborded avenge our emperor ! When teh Jedi strike team show up !!
perfectly knowing that Revan was still alive !
Re: Revan is "far more powerful" than Darth Nihilus
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Seems like your argument goes along fairly straightforward lines. Your claims seem to be as follows:
1. Meetra calls Revan the most powerful individual she’d ever met.
2. Meetra met N.
3. Malak surpassed Revan in power.
:.
4. Malak is more powerful than N.
I recognize that you’ve put a lot of work into the book-keeping on usage of terms like “power” and “command of the Force.” In the absence of sources for the quotes I don’t recognize, I’m forced to assume that the ones written like dialogue are in-universe and the ones written like narration are out-of-universe. The quote for (7) in your first post has typos that make me hesitant to rely on it at all. Moving on.
Generally, I’m inclined to only reject the single weakest part of an argument, and watch the rest crumble. However, there are so many equivocations and omissions that the case is best confronted comprehensively. I’ll discuss first the flaws in each premise (and the evidence provided for each) and then discuss the way that the argument structure itself is insufficient to prove your claim.
First you invoke the claim from the Revan novel, from Meetra’s POV: “Revan’s command of the Force was greater then [sic] that of anyone else she had ever met.”It’s worth noting that the phrasing of this accolade requires that Meetra conceptualize any competitor as an individual who she had met. The quote is not “greater than any she had ever experienced.” Thus, her experience with N. is not clearly included in the set. Furthermore, the trope of “power hidden outside of conflict” is alive and well in the Star Wars mythos. Meetra’s experiences with Revan as described by KotOR II are always distant and subordinate. She is not described to have fought alongside Revan, but rather for Revan. Thus it’s not clear that Meetra is in a position to evaluate his abilities at all. Note that Kyp Durron makes a similar claim about Kar Vastor on Harruun Kal and Darth Vader in a Star Destroyer: observing a "stronger connection” in Vader than in Vastor. However, I’d hesitate to bet on Vader in a direct confrontation of Force power against Vastor being amped by the planet where the observation was made.
I’ve already pointed out that N. is a force of nature more than an individual foe, but here’s a quote from Kreia about Visas’s master:
“He is no longer a man?”
Meetra’s training predisposes her to not thinking of N. as a man. Her conversations with Visas do the same.
Your final point, that Malak surpassed Revan, is by far the most audacious claim of your entire argument. However, it’s given the absolute least evidence. You’ve got in-universe speculation from Vandar (a no-name tbh) about another character. This is speculation about someone Vandar had never met. Vandar is in no position to gauge Malak’s new powers, let alone their relationship to Revan the Dark Lord at his peak. Bear in mind, Malak balked at fighting Revan individually, firing on his ship instead. Even then, Malak wasn’t able to kill his master. Later, after Malak’s power had grown and with mastery over the Star Forge itself, Malak was unable to defeat his master (who had just slogged through the entire staff of the Star Forge plus Bastilla).
The quote you’re relying on is speculation from someone not in a position to know. The conjecture that you’re relying on is directly contradicted by all other evidence from the narrative. Vandar is mistaken.
To reiterate, Meetra’s evaluation of Revan is not proven to be one with a solid justification, let alone something that can stand as uncontroversial fact about the setting. Using Meetra’s evaluation (even if correct) as a benchmark to measure N. is a mistake because of the way the character has been trained to think about the Sith Lord as a force of nature. Similarly, your conjecture about Malak does not pass muster when the source is examined with any kind of scrutiny.
From this, I’m inclined to reject the argument as potentially logically valid but woefully undermined by the source material. However, there is an additional flaw in the way you’ve presented your case. On the boards the shorthand for the fallacy is “ABC logic.” Specifically, power in the Force is not a transitive relation. So the superiority of Malak to Revan, and Revan to Nihilius, is generally thought not to ensure the superiority of Malak to Nihilius. I respect the book-keeping that you’ve done, to ensure that the claims about “power” are not diffused into possibly talking about charisma, political power, or military power. Tracking that “powerful” refers to the strength of a Force user’s abilities is a useful argumentative tactic to use in KMC vs threads. However, your dismissal of Nephthys’s distinction between N.’s power and conventional Force users strikes me as myopic. N. and the Exile both lacked a connection to the living Force. This is a major plot point of the second game. It’s even lampshaded as a game-mechanic. I don’t think that it does your reputation any favors to build an argument (even a trolling argument) on the complete disregard of important evidence about pillars of the (EU) canon.
(no offense to 'Beni' but i didnt actually read the whole thread. i usually skim Neph's posts and then figure out how angry to be about the amount idiocy that they have to try to counter all alone.)
also the amount of time/patience i have for debates is way less than when i was in undergrad haha
edit: "fancy words"???