Lucifer Vs Thanos (Classic IG)

Originally posted by Astner
He is not adding anything. He is just clarifying an obscure reference that he made when he wrote the story.

Whether or not it conforms to the cosmology of the Lucifer series—or the overarching DC cosmology as a whole—doesn't matter. Your speculation of how the Presence referenced the writers was only a valid interpretation in the absence of Carey's response.

Again, you can dismiss the scene for being contradictory; but what you can't do is: keep the scene, dismiss Carey's response and reinterpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

But you can't tell me this ****ing guy had the idea of humans dreaming up God in mind when he wrote that line. No what happened is he read something down the line and said "neat" and then tried to Twitter that into his initial meaning.

He's not explaining something within the confines of what he wrote, he's opening up a new can of worms apart from anything he ever came close to writing... over a decade later.

And that's without going into detail of what Carey actually wrote in relation to humans, Lucifer, and God. The guy made them exist long before humans and "beings". Suddenly a twitter statement many years later saying that God was created by some being dreams is not adding things?

That is why it's bullshit.

Originally posted by leonidas
this would carry more weight if he actually said who exactly this other entity is.... it requires interpretation regardless, so i'll choose the interpretation that isn't self contradictory and that doesn't lead to a paradox.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But you can't tell me this ****ing guy had the idea of humans dreaming up God in mind when he wrote that line.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
He's not explaining something within the confines of what he wrote, he's opening up a new can of worms apart from anything he ever came close to writing... over a decade later.

And that's without going into detail of what Carey actually wrote in relation to humans, Lucifer, and God. The guy made them exist long before humans and "beings".

Originally posted by Astner
That is actually incorrect. According to A Dream of a Thousand Cats, because of the dream the cats were never the rulers.

So if the Presence was dreamt into being, then he would've been dreamt into having always existed.

So it's not really contradictory.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Suddenly a twitter statement many years later saying that God was created by some being dreams is not adding things?

That is why it's bullshit.

Originally posted by Astner
Why not? Carey clearly read Sandman, and that particular issue was published 16 years before the final issue of Lucifer in which the reference was made.

I don't want to get into this argument because it's completely irrelevant. But I did address it earlier in this thread.

Whether it was "many years later," or not, doesn't matter. It's evidence; and new evidence doesn't have to conform to the interpretations of previous evidence. Credible interpretations, on the other hand, do have to conform to the present evidence.

Not over a decade later. It took him what, 26 years to reference the ability to dream Gods into existence? Yes, in that many years that is clearly what he meant when he wrote it. If you could see me now you'd see that I'm laying on my bed watching TV beside my dog with my phone in my hand. But if you could see my brain workings, you'd see me saying you and Carey are full of horsepuckey for thinking this is legit what he meant, and a lot of porn. Now not porn.

Also, there's a difference between retconning a universe and retconning a universe creating omnipotent God that can create omnipotent things that create universes and "dreamers". Among other things, this also implies Sandfella has power over God when he's turrified of Lucifer.

It's not evidence either. It's Carey trying to George Lucas his published works through the power of twitter. 140 characters of power. Guy realized a decade later he left a plothole and scrambling to find an answer he just said to look in a book he had no part in, which he likely read recently. You know what the difference is between writing a book and writing a tweet are? He actually has to try when he writes a book.

His response is contradictory and clearly not the original intent. That's all. Hence I put no stock in it because it's not canon at all.

If you need an example of Carey adding something new not found in any of his writing, then simply read the responses it created when you brought it up. If this was a lead up simply lacking the on panel confirmation of the implication, then it'd be easier to swallow than h1 putting down 1L of jizz. But it's completely out of left field with the only tie in to it being a very old book under a different writer and it simply existing as being the reason it makes sense and ties in. Not because he wrote it as a nod, but because it happened to be there even though he never made mention of it in his years of writing Lucifer.

The fact that were arguing that it was humans that shaped God when God and the Universe came too be Millennias before is idiotic.

We know that it was God/Yahweh that made humans, so how is it not contradictory that we found out is actually the other way around?

If we go that route, then we're claiming that it's humans that came before the Supreme being, which in itself is illogical.

When i read that part, i logically thought he was talking about the real life writers that created him, not people inside the comics.

Originally posted by Mindset
So we all agree that Lucifer loses?

Lucifer destroys him..

It's a paradox that God was shaped by humans, that's the way it's always been.. Carey explaining it more on Twitter, is not him going back and thinking he messed up, he didn't mess up. He even went further and explained it in Lucifer #73 in the Gaudium Option. YHWH will always be the Creator no matter what shape he takes in the next universe, after entropy does its work.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos gives him a thorough beating and he submits to Thanos' will which can master supremacy.

Thanos ftw.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup. I was beginning to respect the Vertigoverse powers and principalities, then sh|t like this happens. 😆

Thanos ftw.

Lucifer would laugh at IG as the trinket it is.

This is just Carey talking out of his ass. Don't flip flop.

yeah, lucifer's PRESENCE has been enough to destroy whole universes. just by WALKING INTO the mansions, lucifer destroyed the entire reality....

Originally posted by kevdude
He even went further and explained it in Lucifer #73 in the Gaudium Option

Originally posted by Astner
You're referring to this scene?

Sort of, the whole comic dealt with dead gods, and other's that are still around, even Valhalla was there. They all should have gone on into the Dreaming per Elaine, but are still hanging around. Mainly where Gaudium and Spera are talking about the prawn being an idea of a god, she say's 'it exists because it's believed in'. Put up a scan if you can.

The Judo-Christian God was believed into being beyond even the Endless. He > them. The Spectre v 4 deals with human's and everyone using dreams this way too. Carey defiantly knew what he was doing. Give him some credit people, he's the one who wrote Lucifer, and made it great!

Originally posted by kevdude
It's a paradox that God was shaped by humans, that's the way it's always been.

The Presence being described in such a way is the exception; it is certainly not the rule. In Carey's own series, multiple references to God creating/shaping mankind+the whole of existence were made--not the other way around(God's name was literally printed on EVERY atom of existence--that's why existence began crumbling when he 'retired'.) I can post scans if you'd like, but anyone who has read Lucifer knows that was pretty much THE plot-point behind most of the series.

Anywho, Carey's random Twitter comment is the first direct reference he has EVER made regarding dreamers having shaped God. And again: because it conflicts with decadeS-worth of established canon which state the exact opposite, it is swiftly(and rightly) dismissable.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, but this is incorrect.

The Presence being described in such a way is the exception; it is certainly not the rule. In Carey's own series, multiple references to God creating/shaping mankind+the whole of existence were made--not the other way around(God's name was literally printed on EVERY atom of existence--that's why existence began crumbling when he 'retired'.) I can post scans if you'd like, but anyone who has read Lucifer knows that was pretty much THE plot-point behind most of the series.

Anywho, Carey's random Twitter comment is the first direct reference he has EVER made regarding dreamers having shaped God. And again: because it conflicts with decadeS-worth of established canon which state the exact opposite, it is swiftly(and rightly) dismissable.

Agree, and that's why we shouldn't take things like interviews seriously. Especially if it contradicts the story that was told. Especially if it takes place some 10+ yrs after the story ended.

if man brought god into being, who was responsible for man and the universe prior to their creating god? if god is eternal and has also existed eternally, the concept of a time before him is paradoxical, obviously, but i suppose not in anyway that is significantly different from many religious beliefs. the theme of man and the power of his dreams, and the idea of the power of stories, IS a theme that is often repeated in both lucifer and sandman in particular. while from a strictly logical standpoint it can't hold up, taken in a different light i can see the reason for accepting it as it was said. regardless of how it's interpreted, i don't think it takes away from the power of god in anyway at all. he DOES exist now. he IS supreme now (or elaine as god). if people want to take carey's words for fact, and then try and use them as a means of denigrating the supreme being, i think they haven't thought it through very well.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it takes away from the power of god in anyway at all. he DOES exist now. he IS supreme now (or elaine as god). if people want to take carey's words for fact, and then try and use them as a means of denigrating the supreme being, i think they haven't thought it through very well.

He/She/It is totally at the mercy of the dreamer(s).

So what if Thanos uses the IG to force all creation to dream God/Michael/Lucifer/etc.. as crippled children? There goes God and his angels. 😆

lol oh zop, you're so ridiculously predictable. taking the comment at its word, where is your proof such a tactic would be remotely possible? having been created to BE supreme he IS supreme and has always BEEN supreme. where do you get the idea that he can now just be 'uncreated' by any force, even those alleged to have shaped him? you make it sound like you have some support for the idea that we can gather a bunch of people, have them not believe in god, and suddenly, he's gone. 😂

having been brought into being, god is now a separate entity, a supreme entity. lucifer too is separate. he was never 'dreamed' into being he was made by god, so trying to 'dream' him away lol would be....really stupid. as far as god--before the creation, he existed in a realm of nothingness--you know, where there were no people to have ever believed in him. 😐 no where in any vertigo book is god's power shown as being based on belief--regardless of how you credit his having been formed. in fact, his power is said to be eternal--it will FAR outlast anything living. if anything, taking carey at his word means thanos would have zero chance here. god was dreamed to be supreme, above ALL. thanos's power would be utterly meaningless and he'd be dismissed as a child would be.

and given that lucifer is the representation of his will, lucifer would also be clearly beyond the ig's ability to affect.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's the thing. He's supreme NOW. This can change at any time in the future when people or cats or dogs or whatever dream up something different.

He/She/It is totally at the mercy of the dreamer(s).

So what if Thanos uses the IG to force all creation to dream God/Michael/Lucifer/etc.. as crippled children? There goes God and his angels. 😆

Jesus man use common sense.

God is a dream of the writers, not the humans in the comics, but the ones in real life.

How the Hell does it makes sense that it was humans in the comics that dreamed God, when we know he came before all of them?

Seriously, come on!

Originally posted by leonidas
lol oh zop, you're so ridiculously predictable. taking the comment at its word, where is your proof such a tactic would be remotely possible? having been created to BE supreme he IS supreme and has always BEEN supreme. where do you get the idea that he can now just be 'uncreated' by any force, even those alleged to have shaped him? you make it sound like you have some support for the idea that we can gather a bunch of people, have them not believe in god, and suddenly, he's gone. 😂

having been brought into being, god is now a separate entity, a supreme entity. lucifer too is separate. he was never 'dreamed' into being he was made by god, so trying to 'dream' him away lol would be....really stupid. as far as god--before the creation, he existed in a realm of nothingness--you know, where there were no people to have ever believed in him. 😐 no where in any vertigo book is god's power shown as being based on belief--regardless of how you credit his having been formed. in fact, his power is said to be eternal--it will FAR outlast anything living. if anything, taking carey at his word means thanos would have zero chance here. god was dreamed to be supreme, above ALL. thanos's power would be utterly meaningless and he'd be dismissed as a child would be.

and given that lucifer is the representation of his will, lucifer would also be clearly beyond the ig's ability to affect.

Which at the time I have nothing bad to say about that dog molesting sex offender.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Nobody talks to zop like that except me.

Which at the time I have nothing bad to say about that dog molesting sex offender.

hey, easy now. i was just pinch hitting for you. no harm done. you and i both know no one will ever be able to replace you when it comes to taking the old zopster to the wood shed. 👆