Lucifer Vs Thanos (Classic IG)

Started by quanchi11224 pages
quanchi112 Disney

Originally posted by basilisk
So one vague statement that falls apart in his actual series and showings. We have seen his more powerful brother Michael fall to someone far weaker in combat to Sandolphon on the field of battle. Michael had the power to end the entire opposition which included Lucifer with a gesture yet someone far less powerful still had the means and the strength to defeat him. I have showings starting Odin is omnipotent so let's not play around here with vague, hyperbolic statements as the center of your case.

zopzop Lord of the Great Abyss

Originally posted by Mindset
I wonder why they just ignored Michael.

Maybe because Michael is a glass canon? Maybe Lucifer is overall more powerful than Michael.

Delta1938 True King of House of El
Originally posted by Surtur
You sure did a good job at showcasing your ability to quote multiple things. Was there a point? Since thinking Lucifer can take on an IG wielder..still doesn't make one a Vertigo fanboy.

His rant is out of context without quoting you.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter. Because the argument wasn't intended to force a reinterpretation of established canon, but to discredit the argument that the Presence referenced the writers.
...Which is ultimately inconsequential for reasons I have already covered.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Galan007
...Which is ultimately inconsequential for reasons I have already covered.

To the thread it's inconsequential, sure. But the argument that the Presence referred to the writers is soundly refuted.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Astner
To the thread it's inconsequential, sure. But the argument that the Presence referred to the writers is promptly refuted.
Whatever the entity, Yahweh still considered it to be beyond himself. IOW, those 'external forces' > an omnipotent/omniscient being.

That, imo, is what should be taken away from the scene regardless of your personal interpretation. /shrug

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!

tbh, i'm not even sure he alluded to whatever it was as being "beyond him". only that whatever it is, had a hand in shaping him. for what that's worth. i still say he intended that comment to allude to the comic book creators, but....yeah. 👆

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by Galan007
Whatever the entity, Yahweh still considered it to be beyond himself. IOW, those 'external forces' > an omnipotent/omniscient being.

That, imo, is what should be taken away from the scene regardless of your personal interpretation. /shrug


You can dismiss the reference on the premise that it doesn't make sense. But if you're going to accept it you can't ignore what Carey said. Because if you do you're compromising the author's authority over his own work and the concept of an objective narrative is thrown out the window.

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!

problem is, the validity of the statement is...suspect. least imo. not to mention open ended. there are obvious logical fallacies involved with taking him at his exact word. so to accept what he said is to accept said fallacies. how to rationalize that then? the other option is to consider other interpretations for what he meant. beings in a creation being responsible for the creation of gods could be a pretty simple allegory in which he still DID intend for his comment to reflect the fact that he really was talking about the comic creators.

of course the third option is to think he was simply trolling, or, more simply, it wasn't even him, or he just changed his mind over time with reference to yahew's comment.... see, simple. 😐

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

It's not suspect. It's his verified Twitter account. I didn't get too deep into it before, because I didn't have a reliable source. Now I do.

Originally posted by Astner
Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by leonidas
tbh, i'm not even sure he alluded to whatever it was as being "beyond him". only that whatever it is, had a hand in shaping him. for what that's worth. i still say he intended that comment to allude to the comic book creators, but....yeah. 👆
👆

When I say 'beyond', I am using it in more of a metatexual sense. As in: those forces literally came from beyond the confines of a comic book. Because you're right: Yahweh didn't allude to those forces necessarily being more powerful than himself--just that they were responsible for 'shaping' him.

But again: nothing about this diminishes Yahweh's power/status in the slightest(like some of the anti-Lucifer/Yahweh bandwagoners initially tried claiming, before they even tried to put a little thought into this discussion.) Yahweh is still [truly] omnipotent/omniscient within the realm of comics.

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!
Originally posted by Galan007
like some of the anti-Lucifer/Yahweh bandwagoners initially tried claiming

for some reason this small collection words made me lol. yahweh bandwagoners. 👆

and that's cool astner. glad we know it really was him at least. imo i think some digging is still needed to really get what he was trying to say. i think taking him at his word just...raises too many irreconcilable questions. shrug

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Astner
You can dismiss the reference on the premise that it doesn't make sense.
This is exactly why it can be promptly dismissed. The notion that dreamers created THE God conflicts with...well...every other shred of Presence-related info in existence. A single Twitter response from Carey doesn't supersede decadeS-worth of in-universe facts from many different writers.

One Big Mob Dead

This is why writer interviews are bullshit. It's basically a retroactive look back on the scenes after they potentially gather more info and think of other ideas to write - that they should have wrote.

The solution of course being to just write another comic containing the "new" ideas but that never comes to fruition. Likely because they only want to add one small detail and not make a new story. And their small detail is utterly worthless to really any sort of reason so they just don't.

It's basically like watching people without the power to George Lucas their work, but they really want this to stick.

It's ok if they explain something that makes sense logically within their own work, but most times they just want to add things where there's no logical way to leap to this area. The validity of a writer interview long after the book is published is dubious more often than not.

People come for the comics, not the interviews.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

👆

Mindset Senior Member

So we all agree that Lucifer loses?

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!

you complete me.

Astner The Ghost Who Walks

Originally posted by One Big Mob
This is why writer interviews are bullshit. It's basically a retroactive look back on the scenes after they potentially gather more info and think of other ideas to write - that they should have wrote.

The solution of course being to just write another comic containing the "new" ideas but that never comes to fruition. Likely because they only want to add one small detail and not make a new story. And their small detail is utterly worthless to really any sort of reason so they just don't.

It's basically like watching people without the power to George Lucas their work, but they really want this to stick.

It's ok if they explain something that makes sense logically within their own work, but most times they just want to add things where there's no logical way to leap to this area. The validity of a writer interview long after the book is published is dubious more often than not.

People come for the comics, not the interviews.


He is not adding anything. He is just clarifying an obscure reference that he made when he wrote the story.

Whether or not it conforms to the cosmology of the Lucifer series—or the overarching DC cosmology as a whole—doesn't matter. Your speculation of how the Presence referenced the writers was only a valid interpretation in the absence of Carey's response.

Again, you can dismiss the scene for being contradictory; but what you can't do is: keep the scene, dismiss Carey's response and reinterpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

Cogito Senior Member
Originally posted by Mindset
I wonder why they just ignored Michael.

Probably because in the time between the war in Heaven and then, which is basically the entirety of time, Michael was MIA. They probably all just forgot he ever existed in the first place.

leonidas MWHAHAHAHA!
reinterpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

this would carry more weight if he actually said who exactly this other entity is.... it requires interpretation regardless, so i'll choose the interpretation that isn't self contradictory and that doesn't lead to a paradox.