Vandal Savage vs Ozymandias

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, but that still doesn't change the fact that he needed way way more time than just a week to get his plan to work plus the fact that he had to have intimate knowledge about Manhattan to know the person's interests and principles.

What I'm saying is that that feat is not exactly a great example of how Ozy will deal with Savage, since it was able to happen under very specific circumstances.

Don't really disagree with most of this, but you're forgetting what you just agreed with me about. Manhattan being exponentially above anybody Vandal has faced let alone did well against. You're equating how long it took him to prep for him.. while forgetting it took that long because he's Manhattan. That IS why it took so long, because again, he's exponentially above anybody Vandal faced. If it took him that long to prep to beat Joe Blow I'd agree with you. Point is, it took that long for Manhattan, but certainly wouldn't take near as long for Vandal, being well well below Manhattan and all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're saying that each person Vandal was outfighting are above Ozy?

I'm saying that that entire group together would stomp Ozy into the ground. Mainly due to Barry, Hawkman, and Ollie but still. If Savage can outfight a Flash, Green Arrow, Hawkman, some Arrow sidekicks and Hawkgirl all at once with ease, he should be able to take Ozy down if it turns into a fight.

But this is of course on the extreme off chance Vandal can get past Manhattan. He could technically just nuke the city I guess. Even destroying a portion would probably win the fight for him. I wonder if Manhattan could just negate a blast of that size.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Don't really disagree with most of this, but you're forgetting what you just agreed with me about. Manhattan being exponentially above anybody Vandal has faced let alone did well against. You're equating how long it took him to prep for him.. while forgetting it took that long because he's Manhattan. That IS why it took so long, because again, he's exponentially above anybody Vandal faced. If it took him that long to prep to beat Joe Blow I'd agree with you. Point is, it took that long for Manhattan, but certainly wouldn't take near as long for Vandal, being well well below Manhattan and all.

Problem is Ozy never really did fight Manhattan, so it's not like he was able to outright beat him. All Ozy did was put Manhattan in a position where he agreed with Ozy's vision for humanity. That's not exactly beating Manhattan as it is convincing him to do nothing.

So we can't say "Ozy beat Manhattan who is extremely more powerful than Savage" because Manhattan never really brought his full powers against Ozy.

That's just it though, that IS how he had to beat him. He's not going to physically overpower him or something like that. Manhattan is nigh immortal. So even getting Manhattan to go along with his vision and to even know how to get him to do that... considering Manhattan's powers is pretty uber really

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's just it though, that IS how he had to beat him. He's not going to physically overpower him or something like that. Manhattan is nigh immortal. So even getting Manhattan to go along with his vision and to even know how to get him to do that... considering Manhattan's powers is pretty uber really

If I slapped Mike Tyson in the face, and just before he retaliates I tell him that if he hits me I'll sue him.. and since he doesn't want the legal trouble anymore he decides not to do anything to me.

Would you say that I was able to beat Mike Tyson? Or would you say I was simply able to get one over him?

And that's my point. Ozy was able to manipulate Manhattan into a position he found favorable but he didn't defeat Manhattan.

You can say he "beat" Manhattan but that's not the kind of defeat he'll need to use on Savage. As per forum rules, he needs to actually defeat Savage, not simply convince Savage to not fight him.

Besides, in this thread Savage also has prep and knowledge on Ozy. Manhattan had no such prep or knowledge.

Manhattan to me has constant prep because he can see his past, and future.

Yeah so you basically had to give Ozy a game trainer to beat Savage. Which really you've made it spite against Savage by putting Manhattan in it.

Not really, Savage is extremely powerful in prep, and he cant die really. Seems even after he was turned to dust, he will be coming back. I never said Manhattan could be used in the fight, only that he has access to his tech.

He was immortal but clearly could die. He's only coming back because the LoS is gonna use a Lazarus Pit I'm guessing. And given that Manhattan can see the future, he can tell Ozy every single thing Vandal plans to do.

Still, it's doubtful Ozy can do anything in a week's time to stop the Staff of Horus. All Vandal has to do is slam it on the ground and New York is instantly a crater.

If Manhattan saw that, he could possible use a shield generator from his own power like the one Ozy used in reverse to blow everyone up. I remember similar blasts from Manhattan/Ozy machine, so it might not be that hard to reproduce a shield to contain that.

But that's conjecture. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. But we know for a fact that Savage can immediately obliterate the entire city by tapping his staff on the ground.

Its viable in a prep fight I think.

Originally posted by KingD19
He was immortal but clearly could die. He's only coming back because the LoS is gonna use a Lazarus Pit I'm guessing. And given that Manhattan can see the future, he can tell Ozy every single thing Vandal plans to do.

Still, it's doubtful Ozy can do anything in a week's time to stop the Staff of Horus. All Vandal has to do is slam it on the ground and New York is instantly a crater.

Lazarus pit was destoyed by Nyssa. It seems only Damien has what is left of some of the water. What is interesting also is Malcolm only took a small portion of the sand/ashes.

Is there only one? Their were multiple in the comics. Maybe Malcolm found another one? or the water is enough?

Originally posted by KingD19
Is there only one? Their were multiple in the comics. Maybe Malcolm found another one? or the water is enough?

I don't know, I hope so. I always thought the one they showed was a little lame.

Should be more like:

I would be surprised if they used it again though. Might be testing viewers a little since its already been used twice.

Ozy. Give him prep, and he will come out on top. The dude is one of the only villains in super hero movies to actually come out on top at the end. He outsmarted every single hero whos known him personally for years, including an immortal omniscient god-like being. Savage blew up a city and beat some heroes in a physical confrontation? Ozy blew up many cities and beat an entire team in physical confrontation while outsmarting a god. Ozy did the impossible.

Savage has not shown himself to be on his level. Yet.

Why is VS vs Ozy turned into VS vs The Watchman-verse.

Also the A-B-C logic on display is giving me a headache. It's equivalent to me saying Lex could kill superman with a k-nite bomb, thus he could totally kill Spider-man with it.

Manhattan wins.

It also needs to be said Manhattan was never ever omniscient or anything like that. His vision was not absolute. If it was then he'd of known what Ozy was up to before he even came up with his plan. He'd of seen it before anything could be built to stop him or mess with his vision. He did not.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ozymandias didn't stop Manhattan per se, but was smart enough to drop billions into tachyon research in order to momentarily stop Doc's vision, smart enough to play on Manhattan's emotions(when no one else could read Manhattan); making it so Manhanntan would leave earth and smart enough to know that Manhattan would ultimately agree with what he did.

He's a supreme master of prep, the one thing he failed at was thinking Manhattan could be destroyed, but even then he had a contingency plan, his plan.

Didn't he have Manhattan helping to construct certain devices?

Let us also not pretend like the state of the world at the time didn't play into his plan, a lot of people were focused on the potential nuclear war and Ozy just took advantage of that.

Not saying he isn't smart, but there were also other factors in play that he had nothing to do with.

Originally posted by Surtur
It also needs to be said Manhattan was never ever omniscient or anything like that. His vision was not absolute. If it was then he'd of known what Ozy was up to before he even came up with his plan. He'd of seen it before anything could be built to stop him or mess with his vision. He did not.

Didn't he have Manhattan helping to construct certain devices?

Let us also not pretend like the state of the world at the time didn't play into his plan, a lot of people were focused on the potential nuclear war and Ozy just took advantage of that.

Not saying he isn't smart, but there were also other factors in play that he had nothing to do with.

This is what I've been trying to say all along. Ozy being able to outmaneuver Manhattan was due to a lot of special circumstances that are not applicable in this match.

For one, Manhattan didn't even know someone was out to get him, let alone that that someone was Ozy. Savage specifically knows he's going against Ozy.