10 Great Military Leaders

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah, but also a space one. 😛

Also Veers? Rieekan? Madine?

But granted, space battles do seem to take precedence over ground ones. But eh....I like ground battles moreso I suppose.

We know some names, but generally not a lot of the battles (With Veers, don't we only know one he lead?). Not to the extent we know the space leaders.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except it's a fact that Palpatine orchestrated battles to make the Jedi, Anakin, look good and the still allow the Separatists to survive. He controlled both sides of the war, so saying "One side was so good at doing this," will never and can never be true.

Sure, Sidious did orchestrate things. That doesn't change that having force users v the enemy's no force users is a major advantage- and Sidious's manipulations certainly hurt the Jedi more than they helped, as upping their casualties was a primary goal. And he had the shadow of the darkside to lessen the effect of their foresight.

Heck, force users were a major advantage in the *Vong* war and they're force-resistant.

The advantage of their presence is overstated. 200+ Jedi including the second strongest Jedi in the entire order got their asses soundly kicked by a pure infantry force using small arms weaponry. The Jedi were a definite boon, but not to the level that their presence should have really hindered the CIS. There just weren't enough of them. And for that matter Greivous' plans get thwarted by Jedi the majority of the time that he encounters them, so it's not as if it can be claimed that he was regularly outwitting them in the first place.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Not as much of an advantage as to be exceptionally noticeable, though. 200+ Jedi including the second strongest Jedi in the entire order got their asses soundly kicked by a pure infantry force using small arms weaponry.

I'm going to note, I have never been able to find a source for the the number of Jedi casualties, and I've checked.

And that's a group of Jedi walking right into a killzone trap, it'd be quite difficult to set up a better scenario, and it was not long at all before Jedi began acting in a way that was much more effective, leading raids and such.

This is Luke, Rebel Veteran, Mara Jade, assassin, and whoever they can recruit and train- certainly including Kyle Katarn, commando, and Corran Horn, former police/pilot. Anyone they train will not be unschooled in the arts of war or commando raids. Most recruits are likely to be vets themselves, but certainly apprentices under veterans.

Originally posted by Q99

Sure, Sidious did orchestrate things. That doesn't change that having force users v the enemy's no force users is a major advantage- and Sidious's manipulations certainly hurt the Jedi more than they helped, as upping their casualties was a primary goal. And he had the shadow of the darkside to lessen the effect of their foresight.

Even during the Mandalorian Wars it wasn't the fact that the Jedi were fighting the Mandalorians that ensured their victory, it was the fact that someone was finally able to get the Republic army to actually be an army. Being able to have see the future, occasionally at that, doesn't win wars.

Heck, force users were a major advantage in the *Vong* war and they're force-resistant.

lol @ the idea that killing Jedi wasn't a primary goal of the Clone Wars and that Sheev was saving all of them for Order 66.

Dooku flat out tells Grievous in "Lair of Grievous" that "Lord Sidious demands more dramatic results... More dead Jedi."

Originally posted by Aurbere
TBF, Grievous was decent as a tactician. Trying to compare him to Revan is just wrong tho. It's the equivalent of comparing Bane to Sidious. Malak is a much better comparison for Grievous. 👆 🙂

Spoiler:
Ant will get it 😉

Absolutely not. Malak bombed Taris into the dirt and dreamed of doing the same to the Core Worlds. Grievous did it to the core worlds. Grievous was so terrifying that he made the citizens of the galaxy willingly transition into an Empire in order to prevent something like him from happening again.

Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol @ the idea that killing Jedi wasn't a primary goal of the Clone Wars and that Sheev was saving all of them for Order 66.

Dooku flat out tells Grievous in "Lair of Grievous" that "Lord Sidious demands more dramatic results... More dead Jedi."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?

And Force and destiny says the primary goal was to expose terrible Jedi by making them lose critical battles. So, meh. The fact that he wants more dead Jedi doesn't make it a primary goal even by the most lose definitions of the word.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Humbarine

Is this serious? Grievous bombed Humbarine a core world founder, an ancient ecumenopolis, into a molten slag. He also conquered dozens of other core worlds including the entire Humbarine sector.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Operation_Durge%27s_Lance

Operation Durge's Lance had the Republic terrified.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Grievous, and really no one sans Tarkin, has done shit comparable to the bombing of Taris or Telos. What are you talking about?

And Force and destiny says the primary goal was to expose terrible Jedi by making them lose critical battles. So, meh. The fact that he wants more dead Jedi doesn't make it a primary goal even by the most lose definitions of the word.

You're overcomplicating it. The war achieves multiple goals: it kills Jedi, it discredits Jedi, it frightens and exhausts the galactic citizenry and legislature into surrendering more of its trust and freedom to the Chancellor, etc. all of which have been discussed at length since 2002.

Q is right: a primary element of the war was that it killed Jedi. Obviously Sidious wants as many of them dead as is possible, since they are by far the biggest threat to his designs.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Humbarine

Is this serious? Grievous bombed Humbarine a core world founder, an ancient ecumenopolis, into a molten slag. He also conquered dozens of other core worlds including the entire Humbarine sector.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Operation_Durge%27s_Lance

Operation Durge's Lance had the Republic terrified.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're overcomplicating it. The war achieves multiple goals: it kills Jedi, it discredits Jedi, it frightens and exhausts the galactic citizenry and legislature into surrendering more of its trust and freedom to the Chancellor, etc. all of which have been discussed at length since 2002.

Q is right: a primary element of the war was that it killed Jedi. Obviously Sidious wants as many of them dead as is possible, since they are by far the biggest threat to his designs.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're a smart guy, Tempest, so I know I don't need to define what the word primary means. Saying, "obviously this must be the primary goal because it's a convenient side," isn't evidence of something being a primary goal, whereas someone flat out saying something is a primary goal make it a primary goal. The fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi at the beginning and 10,000 Jedi at the end is telling. It's not a "primary goal."

Thanks. And while you're not as smart as me, you're pretty sharp too. So reminding you that Q saying killing Jedi is "A" primary goal of the war isn't precluded by you introducing another primary goal is probably a waste of time. Likewise, I'm sure that you don't need to be told that Dooku relaying Sidious's explicit demands to Grievous for more dead Jedi is kind of a big deal and indicative of a high priority. Lastly, I'm sure I don't need to tell someone as smart as you that someone as smart as Sidious would want as many of his ten thousand superhero enemies as dead as possible as quickly and conveniently as possible.

So I can only assume this otherwise unnecessary conversation is just silly chitchat.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Absolutely not. Malak bombed Taris into the dirt and dreamed of doing the same to the Core Worlds. Grievous did it to the core worlds. Grievous was so terrifying that he made the citizens of the galaxy willingly transition into an Empire in order to prevent something like him from happening again.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
[B]And while the bombing of Telos was a crippling blow, as seen in KotOR II, the bombing of Humbarine recovered in two decades. Taris remains a crater thousands of years later. Saying, "Grievous also bombarded a planet," doesn't make the situations comparable. Second, you're still ignoring the nature of the Clone Wars makes it vastly different from the Jedi Civil War. /QUOTE]

What are you talking about lol? I mean like this post doesn't make any sense. And Humbarine was reduced to a "molten slag"...it was ****ed up far more than Taris.

The Battle of Humbarine was significant because it was a critical Republic world sporting its own powerful defense fleet.

[QUOTE]Dude, Aurbere was trolling.

Lol my post was a joke. Thus the 'Grievous does what Malak dreams of doing'

I'm not going to argue semantics with you, Tempest. Fact is, if he wanted them dead, "as soon as possible," he would have done that when the Clone Wars began, instead of allowing them to constantly recover. You can ignore that all you want, but he obviously wasn't trying to kill the Jedi with the Clone Wars, even if he prefered more of them die in it. It's not a primary goal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
What are you talking about lol? I mean like this post doesn't make any sense. And Humbarine was reduced to a "molten slag"...it was ****ed up far more than Taris.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not going to argue semantics with you, Tempest.

Given your record, I can't say as I blame you.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Fact is, if he wanted them dead, "as soon as possible," he would have done that when the Clone Wars began, instead of allowing them to constantly recover. You can ignore that all you want, but he obviously wasn't trying to kill the Jedi with the Clone Wars, even if he prefered more of them die in it. It's not a primary goal.

Fact is, he might have done just that... If he didn't also have other important goals to accomplish as well. Fact is, killing Jedi was indeed a primary goal of the Clone Wars, it just wasn't the only one. Not that hard. 👆

Originally posted by Q99
I'm going to note, I have never been able to find a source for the the number of Jedi casualties, and I've checked.

And that's a group of Jedi walking right into a killzone trap, it'd be quite difficult to set up a better scenario, and it was not long at all before Jedi began acting in a way that was much more effective, leading raids and such.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given your record, I can't say as I blame you.

Fact is, he might have done just that... If he didn't also have other important goals to accomplish as well. Fact is, killing Jedi was indeed a primary goal of the Clone Wars, it just wasn't the only one. Not that hard. 👆

The primary goal of the Clone Wars, especially for the the first two years or so, is in no way shape or form killing Jedi. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to designed the Republic Military to do it at the very end of the war, a war he didn't need to last three years. It's retarded as **** to think something can be "primary" and still secondary in importance.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not going to argue semantics with you, Tempest.

Too easy.

>implying I'm arguing with you and not just continuing a pointless conversation for the hell of it.