Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul bested him in the clone wars series and was always portrayed as superior to Kenobi. Maul got overconfident in APM. That's all.
God awful logic at work here. Kenobi has the Only conclusive dramatic victory in all of their fights. He turned maul into a pint sized midget as a Padawan. Maul has never ever beaten Kenobi in the same way. What's worse, he beat maul and savage at the same time while still not a master yet. Kenobi is conclusively above Maul.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nope. Vader is in no way above Windu... that's plain silly. Both mace and Yoda beat Windu in direct Saber combat. They are above him.
Well I suppose when taking in its movies only, but with Vader's other canon feats yes. However your logic fails to see the context. Windu had Vaapad which elevated him to a certain point and his mindset was also not normal. If he fought Vader the outcome would be much different so I actually keep my position Vader would take Mace overall with all canon, but movies only yes I do see your point.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiNot due to skill but due to arrogance. That doesn't make him more skilled. Maul bested him in the clone wars series multiple times. Bfr is a win, Abe.
God awful logic at work here. Kenobi has the Only conclusive dramatic victory in all of their fights. He turned maul into a pint sized midget as a Padawan. Maul has never ever beaten Kenobi in the same way. What's worse, he beat maul and savage at the same time while still not a master yet. Kenobi is conclusively above Maul.
Opress took on Kenobi and Anakin at the same time and didn't lose.
😂
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
God awful logic at work here. Kenobi has the Only conclusive dramatic victory in all of their fights. He turned maul into a pint sized midget as a Padawan. Maul has never ever beaten Kenobi in the same way. What's worse, he beat maul and savage at the same time while still not a master yet. Kenobi is conclusively above Maul.
Obi Wan defeated Maul via surprise attack while Maul was massaging his ego. Doesn't change the fact that Obiwan was unable to defeat Maul in a straight up fight even with the help of his master.
Yoda is good but he couldn't get the job done against Dooku OR Sidious
Mace is also good but in the end he was bested, he's been stated to be on Dookus level and even if you believe he beats Sidous truly (he didn't) then you have to factor in his amp via Vaapad, which he wouldn't really have in any other situation.
Dooku is good but old, Anakin bested him simply due to age difference.
Anakin had potential but he allowed himself to be clouded by anger, making him sloppy.
Obi Wan is the best fighter, the only one he had a clear disadvantage to was Dooku and by the time of ROTS he could have arguably beaten Dooku but got caught by a Force push, for the sake of the plot IMO.
Even when fighting Maul, he pushed him to the limit, slicing his saber in half, Maul had to resort to Force push as well to get the upper hand again.
If anything you could say Obis weakness in saber fights is Force push, nothing to do with the actual sword fight itself, he picked Grievous apart rather easily which was 4 sabers against 1.
Judging by record alone you gotta give the nod to Obi Wan here.
2 Sith Lords and Grievous, the Jedi killer.
Originally posted by relentless1
Yoda is good but he couldn't get the job done against Dooku OR SidiousMace is also good but in the end he was bested, he's been stated to be on Dookus level and even if you believe he beats Sidous truly (he didn't) then you have to factor in his amp via Vaapad, which he wouldn't really have in any other situation.
Dooku is good but old, Anakin bested him simply due to age difference.
Anakin had potential but he allowed himself to be clouded by anger, making him sloppy.
Obi Wan is the best fighter, the only one he had a clear disadvantage to was Dooku and by the time of ROTS he could have arguably beaten Dooku but got caught by a Force push, for the sake of the plot IMO.
Even when fighting Maul, he pushed him to the limit, slicing his saber in half, Maul had to resort to Force push as well to get the upper hand again.
If anything you could say Obis weakness in saber fights is Force push, nothing to do with the actual sword fight itself, he picked Grievous apart rather easily which was 4 sabers against 1.
Judging by record alone you gotta give the nod to Obi Wan here.
2 Sith Lords and Grievous, the Jedi killer.
Well actually when you look at Yoda's fights, he disarmed Sidious and almost had Dooku.
Agreed with Mace point.
I love Dooku but Dooku was beaten by a finess move. They seemed even with Dooku taking all the attacks but Anakin at that time was a 9 on level with Sidious and Yoda.
Obi wan would be beaten by Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Windu and Anakin even without the force TBH.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2Windu is número uno. Get mad, slave.
Well actually when you look at Yoda's fights, he disarmed Sidious and almost had Dooku.Agreed with Mace point.
I love Dooku but Dooku was beaten by a finess move. They seemed even with Dooku taking all the attacks but Anakin at that time was a 9 on level with Sidious and Yoda.
Obi wan would be beaten by Sidious, Yoda, Dooku, Windu and Anakin even without the force TBH.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Obi Wan defeated Maul via surprise attack while Maul was massaging his ego. Doesn't change the fact that Obiwan was unable to defeat Maul in a straight up fight even with the help of his master.
False... WATCH THE FIGHT FROTH... don't sink to Quan levels on me. This is a SABER fight, and questioning who is the best with the saber. Not all out.. with force powers and sabers. That is the ONLY reason Maul was able to gain the advantage via force push. In their DIRECT saber duel Kenobi was doing just fine, and in fact, partially disarmed Maul of weapon. ALL of this while a Padawan... while on the contrary Maul had more training and was further along than Kenobi and still couldn't defeat him in a sabers only fight. Imagine what a ROTS Master Kenobi would do? It's not even close really, and stop pretending like it is
What's worse it wasn't a surprise attack at all. A surprise attack is generally when somebody is not looking i.e. a cheapshot. Maul was LOOKING DIRECTLY AT KENOBI when he made his move. Problem was not that he didn't see it coming, the problem was he wasn't skilled enough or fast enough to react to the move. It by no means was a surprise attack... he literally watched him fly up the shaft... call his saber and couldn't do a damn thing about it. All this again, while Kenobi was a Padawan. ROTS Kenobi vs. Maul is a non fight.
This is further shown by Kenobi beating Maul and Savage at the same time... he defeated them in the saber only portion of the fight. The only time maul gained ANY advantage, was again, when he force pushed Kenobi. Further conclusive proof that in a saber only fight Kenobi wins, and decisively so.
Originally posted by relentless1
Yoda is good but he couldn't get the job done against Dooku OR SidiousMace is also good but in the end he was bested, he's been stated to be on Dookus level and even if you believe he beats Sidous truly (he didn't) then you have to factor in his amp via Vaapad, which he wouldn't really have in any other situation.
Dooku is good but old, Anakin bested him simply due to age difference.
Anakin had potential but he allowed himself to be clouded by anger, making him sloppy.
Obi Wan is the best fighter, the only one he had a clear disadvantage to was Dooku and by the time of ROTS he could have arguably beaten Dooku but got caught by a Force push, for the sake of the plot IMO.
Even when fighting Maul, he pushed him to the limit, slicing his saber in half, Maul had to resort to Force push as well to get the upper hand again.
If anything you could say Obis weakness in saber fights is Force push, nothing to do with the actual sword fight itself, he picked Grievous apart rather easily which was 4 sabers against 1.
Judging by record alone you gotta give the nod to Obi Wan here.
2 Sith Lords and Grievous, the Jedi killer.
Incorrect on many Levels that I don't even now where to begin.
Yoda DISARMED Sids and beat him in direct saber combat. That is indisputable. As you noted in your post.. this is sabers only... Yoda had to overcome Sids force powers which is why he ended up not getting the job done. However, in the saber portion of the fight... he disarmed Sids which is all that matters here.
Again, Windu DID beat Sids, and no amount of sids apologists can change that fact. When using only the movies this couldn't be made more clear. Lucas even admits and says Windu overpowered and overcame Sids. It was so clear a 5 year old would watch the scene and go Windu beat him.
Lastly, you and emperor make the mistake of thinking Vaapad is some kind of external amp, it's not. It's his damn lightsaber form not an amp. He has vaapad in EVERY sword fight he gets in. Stop acting like it's anything other than that.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
False... WATCH THE FIGHT FROTH... don't sink to Quan levels on me. This is a SABER fight, and questioning who is the best with the saber. Not all out.. with force powers and sabers. That is the ONLY reason Maul was able to gain the advantage via force push. In their DIRECT saber duel Kenobi was doing just fine, and in fact, partially disarmed Maul of weapon. ALL of this while a Padawan... while on the contrary Maul had more training and was further along than Kenobi and still couldn't defeat him in a sabers only fight. Imagine what a ROTS Master Kenobi would do? It's not even close really, and stop pretending like it isWhat's worse it wasn't a surprise attack at all. A surprise attack is generally when somebody is not looking i.e. a cheapshot. Maul was LOOKING DIRECTLY AT KENOBI when he made his move. Problem was not that he didn't see it coming, the problem was he wasn't skilled enough or fast enough to react to the move. It by no means was a surprise attack... he literally watched him fly up the shaft... call his saber and couldn't do a damn thing about it. All this again, while Kenobi was a Padawan. ROTS Kenobi vs. Maul is a non fight.
This is further shown by Kenobi beating Maul and Savage at the same time... he defeated them in the saber only portion of the fight. The only time maul gained ANY advantage, was again, when he force pushed Kenobi. Further conclusive proof that in a saber only fight Kenobi wins, and decisively so.
Holy crap man. Can we limit our arguments to just a paragraph or two?
Anyway, I just rewatched the fight scene and though Maul did use a force push (once), Obiwan never had the upper hand in that fight. In fact, Maul landed a kick on Obiwan three times, and the only reason Maul didn't finish him off on the first 2 times was because Maul was fighting both Obiwan and Quigon. Obiwan never fought two trained lightsaber fighters at the same time and dominate them. That's something unique to Maul and Dooku and is a better feat than anything Obiwan has done.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not due to skill but due to arrogance. That doesn't make him more skilled. Maul bested him in the clone wars series multiple times. Bfr is a win, Abe.Opress took on Kenobi and Anakin at the same time and didn't lose.
😂
Incorrect as usual short smush face Quan. Maul NEVER got the better of Kenobi without force powers when Kenobi was ready. Never, ever did that happen. As a padawan Kenobi was getting the better of the saber fight as he partially disarmed Maul, while Maul could gain NO advantage without the force push. Being that this is sabers only... and Kenobi was only a padawan there.. while Maul was much more trained and experienced... It's quite clear Kenobi is above Maul is sabers only combat.
Even in the Savage and Maul vs. Kenobi fight... Again he still wasn't a master yet and was still getting the DECISIVE advantage over Maul and Savage. The ONLY way Maul got Kenobi off of him was AGAIN via a force push... which isn't a part of this thread. God it's so easy tooling you in thread after thread shorty.
Lastly, it wasn't a surprise attack... Maul was LOOKING DIRECTLY AT HIM. He watched him fly up the shaft.. call the sword and couldn't do a damn thing about it. He wasn't skilled enough or fast enough to react to the move by Kenobi, a padawan Kenobi at that. It was a pitiful display by Maul losing to a Padawan. Kenobi owns him in sabers, and easily so shorty.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Holy crap man. Can we limit our arguments to just a paragraph or two?Anyway, I just rewatched the fight scene and though Maul did use a force push (once), Obiwan never had the upper hand in that fight. In fact, Maul landed a kick on Obiwan three times, and the only reason Maul didn't finish him off on the first 2 times was because Maul was fighting both Obiwan and Quigon. Obiwan never fought two trained lightsaber fighters at the same time and dominate them. That's something unique to Maul and Dooku and is a better feat than anything Obiwan has done.
Which is the point though Froth, this is a saber only fight. As a mere Padawan, Kenobi did just fine against the more experienced and trained Maul. In fact, he partially disarmed him of his weapon. Maul could do no such thing to Kenobi. If Kenobi could do that as a Padawan... how easily do you think ROTS Kenobi would defeat Maul in saber only combat? I reckon pretty decisively.
Not true, Kenobi best maul and savage at the same time in a saber fight. Again, Maul and Savage left the scene and only did so after force pushing Kenobi. In the saber portion of the fight... He was owning them.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well I suppose when taking in its movies only, but with Vader's other canon feats yes. However your logic fails to see the context. Windu had Vaapad which elevated him to a certain point and his mindset was also not normal. If he fought Vader the outcome would be much different so I actually keep my position Vader would take Mace overall with all canon, but movies only yes I do see your point.
What canon feats are you referring to? even if we use all the books in the mythos Vader is no where near Mace level. He became weaker as a swordsman after ROTS. His force powers got better, but since he was so slow now, he became a worse swordsman. So no, in the mythos that isn't true at all. However, this is movies only an Mace is clearly above him.
Stop saying Vaapad is an amp. IT'S HIS DAMN LIGHTSABER FORM NOT AN AMP. Just like Kenobi uses Soresu. That is his form not some external amp he doesn't always have. I'm sick of having to repeat the same logical stuff over and over with you. Get it through your head... This is a saber fight and thus Mace has Vaapad each and every time.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which is the point though Froth, this is a saber only fight. As a mere Padawan, Kenobi did just fine against the more experienced and trained Maul. In fact, he partially disarmed him of his weapon. Maul could do no such thing to Kenobi. If Kenobi could do that as a Padawan... how easily do you think ROTS Kenobi would defeat Maul in saber only combat? I reckon pretty decisively.Not true, Kenobi best maul and savage at the same time in a saber fight. Again, Maul and Savage left the scene and only did so after force pushing Kenobi. In the saber portion of the fight... He was owning them.
I think you're completely missing the point. Darth Maul, through pure lightsaber skills, was dominating both Quigon and Obiwan. Obiwan was surviving and did eventually cut Maul's dual saber but at no time did he dominate Darth Maul.
So my question to you is, what makes you think he's a better fighter than Darth Maul? Simply because he was able to somewhat hang in there with Maul as a Padawan?
And if you're going to argue that Darth Maul used a force push then we might as well say that Obiwan would have died if he didn't use a force jump.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I think you're completely missing the point. Darth Maul, through pure lightsaber skills, was dominating both Quigon and Obiwan. Obiwan was surviving and did eventually cut Maul's dual saber but at no time did he dominate Darth Maul.So my question to you is, what makes you think he's a better fighter than Darth Maul? Simply because he was able to somewhat hang in there with Maul as a Padawan?
And if you're going to argue that Darth Maul used a force push then we might as well say that Obiwan would have died if he didn't use a force jump.
Yes, that is exactly why. He was able to hold his own as a padawan, and in fact, ended up turning Maul into a pint sized midget. That speaks volumes about what would happen once Kenobi became a master. Maul should do better than Kenobi, after all, he was more trained and experienced. So I would expect him to do good and Kenobi to "hang in there" as you say. In the end though, he defeated Maul, and decisively so.
Again, you fail to address Kenobi beating Maul and Savage at the same time in the saber duel. Again, Kenobi still wasn't a master at that point. You don't think by the time of ROTS, he'd do even better and convincing win?
Not close to the same and you know it bud. Even if we accept they are the same (I certainly don't), Kenobi turned him into a pint sized midget, Maul simply gained an advantage over Kenobi i.e. Kenobi still comes out on top.
He wasn't dominating though, he was doing
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yes, that is exactly why. He was able to hold his own as a padawan, and in fact, ended up turning Maul into a pint sized midget. That speaks volumes about what would happen once Kenobi became a master. Maul should do better than Kenobi, after all, he was more trained and experienced. So I would expect him to do good and Kenobi to "hang in there" as you say. In the end though, he defeated Maul, and decisively so.Again, you fail to address Kenobi beating Maul and Savage at the same time in the saber duel. Again, Kenobi still wasn't a master at that point. You don't think by the time of ROTS, he'd do even better and convincing win?
Not close to the same and you know it bud. Even if we accept they are the same (I certainly don't), Kenobi turned him into a pint sized midget, Maul simply gained an advantage over Kenobi i.e. Kenobi still comes out on top.
He wasn't dominating though, he was doing
When did Kenobi beat Maul and Savage? We're talking purely movie feats here. Also, Kenobi was not able to hold his own as a Padawan. Being able to stop Maul's assault for a number of seconds isn't "holding his own".
Sure he was able to win in the end but he used the force to do that yes? This is a pure lightsaber battle.
We can and ignore the clone wars as if they don't count, but in reality, it's more proof that Kenobi is above him. In general, the clone wars are fair game on this forum. I understand you tried to exclude them, which I suppose is fine, but you should be able to see the overall picture... Kenobi is above him.
Further, if we use the movies only that makes it even worse for the Maul side. Kenobi defeated maul as a mere Padawan... Kenobi beat Anakin... some decisively above Maul. He also defeated the jedi Killer Grievous, which again is more saber feats for Kenobi, while Maul has, wait for it.... doing okay in a 2 v 1 situation... Defeating Jinn... and then getting turned into a midget by Padawan Kenobi. So yes, using movie feats Kenobi still dominates.