Originally posted by ares834
Got a link to the script? People said the same thing of the novel, but it’s straight up said to be the dark side “talking” to her.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceAnd ESB Luke is?
To face Vader. Kylo isn't comparable to Vader in any way.
Anyway Luke wasn't ready because his skills were unrefined and he had next to no duelling experience.
Kylo however though unrefined as a duelist, has likely been trained as a Jedi from a young age, has received further training from Snoke, and has proven his abilities and garnered experience by destroying Luke's order.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceDude, she just overpowered him in acquiring Luke's lightsaber.
How it's that relevant when Kylo is stated to be at a disadvantage and Luke wasn't? Not to mention Luke's potential far outstripping Kylo's, this isn't exactly a case of similar comparisons. Anakin didn't face any Force Users before Dooku and Obi-Wan did, but it's pretty obvious who actually did better in that situation.Which is what I was taking about not actual realized power.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
ESB Luke is?Anyway Luke wasn't ready because his skills were unrefined and he had next to no duelling experience.
Kylo and a bunch of his friends killing randoms isn't proof of anything, add his training under Snoke has been under an undefined amount of time, as it's more recent than Rey's abandonment.
Also Kylo was "severely injured" which would probably make a difference lol. Your assumption is that he killed a bunch of randoms. From what I've read, Kylo wiped out the new jedi order, who I'm assuming had been trained to a certain degree by Luke Skywalker. Better feat than wiping out some randoms. Now I'm not saying he's Anakin, who went to the jedi temple and slaughered every jedi there, but it's still an accomplishment.
Originally posted by FreshestSliceBeing relieved of his lightsaber by Vader hardly counts. In terms of duelling experience he pales in comparison to Ren, and destroying Luke's Jedi Order is a better feat than anything ESB Luke has.
Wrong. Luke has combat experience by ESB, has already fought Vader and was trained in the lightsaber combat. Not to mention Rey had absolutely zero training, and Luke has been training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.Kylo and a bunch of his friends killing randoms isn't proof of anything, add his training under Snoke has been under an undefined amount of time, as it's more recent than Rey's abandonment.
And this isn't Luke vs Rey, proving Luke is better than Rey isn't proof he can win here.
Originally posted by Rebel95do we know exactly how he did it or did it happen off panel/screen? For all we know, he bombarded them with orbital strikes, or poisoned their food, or led a massive army of soldiers to kill them, or got them to go to war with each other until they were weak enough that he could beat the survivors. Being stated to have taken out the new jedi order is nice and all, but I go off of on panel evidence to see how powerful a character is.
Also Kylo was "severely injured" which would probably make a difference lol. Your assumption is that he killed a bunch of randoms. From what I've read, Kylo wiped out the new jedi order, who I'm assuming had been trained to a certain degree by Luke Skywalker. Better feat than wiping out some randoms. Now I'm not saying he's Anakin, who went to the jedi temple and slaughered every jedi there, but it's still an accomplishment.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrong. Luke has combat experience by ESB, has already fought Vader and was trained in the lightsaber combat. Not to mention Rey had absolutely zero training, and Luke has been training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.
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Luke had plenty of experience using the Force and his Saber in combat by Episode 5 as per Canon.
In the Weapon of a Jedi, he spent hours and hours training in a Temple deflecting shots with his Saber. And that was right after Yavin. Since then in the Marvel comics he's fought in a Gladiator Arena, he's fought Boba Fett blind, and had a little scuffle with Vader. And that's just what we know of so far between ANH and ESB.
And then of course in ESB he gets a few days/weeks of 1 on 1 training with Yoda before facing off against Vader.
A "scuffle" with Vader, a fight with a guy of undetermined skill who may or may not be Force sensitive and a few days of practice against Magnaguards =/= next to no dueling experience. And let's not forget all the above capably defeated him.
And three years of uninstructed Padawan-tier practice and a week-crash course from Yoda is not going to provide him with anything more than unrefined skill, hence why Yoda claimed he wasn't ready, and again pales in comparison to the formal training Ren would have received.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And let's not forget all the above capably defeated him.
My memory's hazy but didn't he defeat Boba Fett?
Even escaping him after fighting him blind is pretty damn impressive IMO.
And obviously he'd get stomped by Vader at that point. But just scuffling with him is experience he can learn from.
Point being he's clearly been using the Force and his Saber in combat regularly between ANH and ESB.
Originally posted by Darth ThorYeah but that's not dueling experience, a good feat but I doubt it would have done much or anything to prepare him for lightsaber combat.
My memory's hazy but didn't he defeat Boba Fett?Even escaping him after fighting him blind is pretty damn impressive IMO.
In fact the first time we see him in a duel, he's on the ground in a couple of panels, even after days of training the guy still handily defeats him.
And obviously he'd get stomped by Vader at that point. But just scuffling with him is experience he can learn from.Not even, Luke takes one swing at him then Vader takes his lightsaber. The only thing he learnt from that was his incompetence.
Point being he's clearly been using the Force and his Saber in combat regularly between ANH and ESB.I never actually denied that.
But the fact remains his experience of actual lightsaber combat is scant to say the least, and in the few duels he's been in he's lost, every time.
Whereas Kylo is a great deal more experienced, and was far more successful.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah but that's not dueling experience, a good feat but I doubt it would have done much or anything to prepare him for lightsaber combat.
I mean Boba Fett could challenge and even kill many Jedi even with their Sabers if he's anything like Jango. And Luke was blind. Taking on the best bounty hunter blind, shows his prowess as a force combatant that early on.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
In fact the first time we see him in a duel, he's on the ground in a couple of panels, even after days of training the guy still handily defeats him.
Well like you said it was his First duel. And he was probably pretty tired from all the training.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But the fact remains his experience of actual lightsaber combat is scant to say the least, and in the few duels he's been in he's lost, every time.Whereas Kylo is a great deal more experienced, and was far more successful.
Yeah but those are just his first experiences. And he got further sword training in the Arena. Probably just needed time to adapt what he learned.
And his force enhanced abilities were clearly pretty impressive already. ESB Luke is on a whole other level. Especially after his training with Yoda.
So even though Ren may have better dueling skill, I would still bet on Luke in a Saber/Close combat fight personally.