Originally posted by Q99
Another answer: Time Travel.Anyone else ever read a story where a time-traveler ends up creating themself or their time machine?
It's interesting no-one ever seems to attribute God as having time travel powers or consider the possibility.
God is viewed as a Supreme Being outside of 'Time'. Time has no meaning in Eternity. It's something humans can't comprehend because we are bound to 'Time'.
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
God is viewed as a Supreme Being outside of 'Time'. Time has no meaning in Eternity. It's something humans can't comprehend because we are bound to 'Time'.
Oh, humans can comprehend quite a number of things without time, it's not all that hard, I can name some stories.
My point is more, however, that even though people say stuff like that (it doesn't exactly come up in the Bible itself), they still assume a rather linear approach when actually talking about God. Non-linear self creation doesn't crop up, nor does acting in any order other than linearly.
And no-one even mentions the possibility of self-creation in a shining egg over a primordial ocean...
Yeah, that's pretty much bullshit. Something that exists outside of time can't have causal properties because you need a chain of events for actions to occur, meaning a passage of time. I think the real answer is that there's no such thing as non-existence, as in there never was "nothing". Existence has always existed, just not necessarily in the configuration it is in today. The universe didn't come from nothing, it's just that what we inhabit in the 'now' is simply one of many possible configurations of what has always been, and 'now' isn't static, because 'then' wasn't static, and neither is 'what will be'.
Originally posted by MF DELPH👆
Yeah, that's pretty much bullshit. Something that exists outside of time can't have causal properties because you need a chain of events for actions to occur, meaning a passage of time. I think the real answer is that there's no such thing as non-existence, as in there never was "nothing". Existence has always existed, just not necessarily in the configuration it is in today. The universe didn't come from nothing, it's just that what we inhabit in the 'now' is simply one of many possible configurations of what has always been, and 'now' isn't static, because 'then' wasn't static, and neither is 'what will be'.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Yeah, that's pretty much bullshit. Something that exists outside of time can't have causal properties because you need a chain of events for actions to occur, meaning a passage of time. I think the real answer is that there's no such thing as non-existence, as in there never was "nothing". Existence has always existed, just not necessarily in the configuration it is in today. The universe didn't come from nothing, it's just that what we inhabit in the 'now' is simply one of many possible configurations of what has always been, and 'now' isn't static, because 'then' wasn't static, and neither is 'what will be'.
Is it eternal eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise, it wouldn't be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.
What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it. The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God. What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.
My point of view as a Catholic is that the way our universe functions, one of the fundamental rules of our universe is that everything has a cause, but for that to be true, there has to be a reason for why the rules our universe follows are the way there are, and that with everything built upon something before it, there has to be some baseline for everything else to be built from. For that to be true, I believe there would have to be something existing outside of that rule of our universe that everything has to have a cause, ie. a higher power.
I personally believe in Christianity specifically because its the most in keeping with certain moral and philosophical values I've developed in my life (ie. the duality of choice and fate, the importance of love, purpose of life as it relates to oneself and humanity on the whole, etc.), but I respect the rights of others to believe what they will.
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Is it eternal eternal or did it have a beginning? It could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. But, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise, it wouldn't be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence.
What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it. The Bible promotes this sufficient cause as God. What does atheism offer instead of God? If nothing, then atheism is not able to account for our own existence.
Existence has always existed. Period. No degrees. And you can't have causal properties without causality, meaning a chain of events or actions can't occur without time. The universe isn't the totality of existence. Saying that this universe had a 'beginning' doesn't mean existence did. Non-existence is a paradox. At most you can say that existence hasn't always been in it's current state.
*edit
Also, you're own position betrays the special pleading necessary to propose a God or Gods.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
Existence has always existed. Period. No degrees. And you can't have causal properties without causality, meaning a chain of events or actions can't occur without time. The universe isn't the totality of existence. Saying that this universe had a 'beginning' doesn't mean existence did. Non-existence is a paradox. At most you can say that existence hasn't always been in it's current state.
What state WAS it in previously then?
Originally posted by Inhuman
Humans created the concept of God
Humans inferred the existence of God from certain observations; matters beyond their control. However, interpretations of the God have varied among civilizations throughout history. But humans continue to look for answers.
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Decades ago, Albert Einstein predicted that gravitational forces maintain the Universe at large (i.e. theory of gravity). However, latest research reveals that a mysterious 'dark energy' is actually involved in the maintenance of the Universe at large (and its expansion). http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2016/01/-the-dark-energy-mystery-the-entire-universe-is-being-pushed-by-an-invisible-unknown-force-no-one-ca.html
Scientists have also predicted the end of Universe at a certain point in the future. http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_bigcrunch.html
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Now, let us have a look at the interpretations of the God in the Holy Quran:-
"There is nothing whatever like unto Him." (42:11)
&
"Everything (that exists) will perish except His own Face." (28:88)
Originally posted by MF DELPHAgreed, which is why the follow-up is important:
Not necessarily.Some people may misconstrue the position of existence always existing as adding validity to the belief that said existence must have been an eternal sentient being, or beings. That isn't the case.
1. Something Always Was (hugs for all who can stick with this simplest starting point).
2. But ... what is it? How do we define it? How do we look for it?
Originally posted by Q99
And no-one even mentions the possibility of self-creation in a shining egg over a primordial ocean...
This would make the notion of self-creation impossible prior to the existence of time.
That's the rub. Which is why creation is likely not the correct term. I think the typical chicken:egg analogy leads to a false premise and the presupposition of intent and agency ('chicken had to lay the egg'😉. Matter is a state of energy, not a creation of energy, and when energy achieved the state of matter, as in matter became realized, the other properties from that state became emergent, though matter and energy consist of the same thing, and energy and it's potential was always there.