If God created everything who created God?

personally I think the idea that we and our logical ordered universe just came from random chance or exists "just because" is pretty ridiculous, but whatever. No offense but it's clear that discussing my religious beliefs with you isn't going to get either of us anywhere, and I hoped since you take what I think is the best approach to atheism and I take what you think is the best approach to religion we could have a little more respect for each other, but whatever.

Aside from your condescension towards liberals and religious people you seem like a pretty smart chill guy, so i honestly think it sucks that there has to be that barrier between us.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Personally I think the idea that we and our logical ordered universe just came from random chance

This thought process strikes me as backwards. If the universe worked differently, or if events played out differently, then the result would just be different. It's not like everything conveniently fell into place in pursuit of getting this result. Rather, this just happens to be the result of what did happen. What exactly makes it "orderly" or "logical"? Those are just terms we invented to describe the reality of the world that's around us.

or exists "just because" is pretty ridiculous, but whatever.

Why can a god exist "just because" and not the rest of reality?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not like everything conveniently fell into place in pursuit of getting this result.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

👆

Whatever, I've reached a point in my life where my religious beliefs are based around my logical/philosophical conclusions based on my understanding of the universe and my existence rather than blind faith, my beliefs have helped me reach a point of moral/spiritual enlightenment, as well as inner peace and happiness, and I approach my religion as it was meant to be approached; through love rather than arrogance. My religious views have been a positive drive in my life, and even if it turns out I'm wrong about the existence of God, my faith in love isn't misplaced, and my beliefs drive me towards love, self-improvement, and progress in the world around me.

As such, I have no interest anymore in opening up and debating this with strangers on the internet who, when seeing something so central to who I am as a person, are going to mock me, assume I'm retarded, and believe I'm deluding and lying to myself on one of the most fundamental levels.

If you really want to convince someone God isn't real because you legitimately think that'll help them, try being civil and expressing a legitimate concern for their well being and a concern to help them and they'll be more likely to consider your arguments with an open mind. Attack them and try to make them feel like shit, and they'll return the hostility and be more close minded to your ideas. If you're trying to actually help people, I'd advise using constructive criticism since that's what people tend to respond positively to. If you aren't actually trying to help people, then you're just being dicks, and not being productive at all.

You're relapsing, DMB. People are not assuming you're retarded - you're not DarthAnt66 - they're just disagreeing with you through argumentation, and the occasional photo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're relapsing, DMB. People are not assuming you're retarded - you're not DarthAnt66 - they're just disagreeing with you through argumentation, and the occasional photo.

His points are also comically incoherent. He defended the electoral college by pointing out that the Republican counties covered more land area (???), said that porn stars can't be president but when pressed for reasons said that it's impossible to give a reason for anything because everything's subjective, and thinks that legal immigrants are bad for Americans, aside, you know, from basically building America.

Didn't he basically say that morality=social norms?

Yeah, which is a stupid catch-22 (what creates the social norms?), and obviously applied selectively, given he doesn't like the social norms that favor liberals.

The guy's arguments are cringeworthy in how bad they are.

I'm fine with disagreement.

The evidence seems to say otherwise. 🤨

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The evidence seems to say otherwise. 🤨

Ah, allow me to clarify. I meant to say you're evidently fine with people disagreeing with your beliefs, but not challenging them. I'm not looking to be the subject of your next wall of text rant, but that mentality is what's counterproductive here. This is a discussion thread--not a "state your opinion and back the **** off of everyone else's" thread.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have no desire for my beliefs to be respected. Only challenged competently.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Ah, allow me to clarify. I meant to say you're evidently fine with people disagreeing with your beliefs, but not challenging them. I'm not looking to be the subject of your next wall of text rant, but that mentality is what's counterproductive here. This is a discussion thread--not a "state your opinion and back the **** off of everyone else's" thread.

I can't speak for everyone, but I have no desire for my beliefs to be respected. Only challenged competently.

Who is mocking you?

Damn, Ellimist throwing shade out of nowhere.

The salt is real.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His points are also comically incoherent. He defended the electoral college by pointing out that the Republican counties covered more land area (???),

I defended it many ways - you're picking a *picture* I posted and ignoring all the rest.

said that porn stars can't be president but when pressed for reasons said that it's impossible to give a reason for anything because everything's subjective,

Given the specific demands of NemeBro, yeah.

Note it's a Battle Bar debate, not a college report. 😂

and thinks that legal immigrants are bad for Americans, aside, you know, from basically building America.

Quote of me saying that?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is the key mistake people make when they consider the evolution of the cosmos; thinking from their own, present-day perspective as modern humans that everything has been on a planned trajectory to the here-and-now ever since the beginning. It's an appealing notion that helps make us feel special and important, but that's about it. We're not the point. We never were.

How do you know this?

I see connection as what defines scientific law, what defines the duality of purpose and choice, understanding and power, and love (the very thing that gives our lives meaning). I don't believe the universe would exist without a purpose, and thus through the cosmological argument I believe in a higher power. And judging by the fact that connection seems to be this transcendent thing, I come to the conclusion that this higher power has an individual will (embodying choice), can justify not only the existence of us and the universe but itself as well (embodying purpose), and is omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent (embodying power, understanding, and love), and based on my belief in the dualism of the spirit and body stemming from a combination of Plato's theory of forms and the solipsist principal, my belief that an all-loving being would put himself in our place to feel our pain, and since it seems to be a perfect embodiment of connection, I believe in the Holy Trinity. Not so much what other people tell me about the Holy Trinity, which is why I'm a non-denominational Christian who doesn't believe the Bible is absolute and doesn't believe in Hell.

If you disagree with me whatever, but my three primary life goals are: improve as a person, improve the world and the lives of the people around me, and have a loving family, so even if I'm wrong about God, I'm hardly doing shit in life I shouldn't be doing.