Valkorion vs. 10 POD Trainee Banes

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because a planet killer can't TK 10 trainee Banes at once. 😐My goodness, repeating myself is getting rather tiresome.

1. Valkorion was channeling his power through an inferior vessel, so its going to require a longer period of exertion.
2. He doesn't need to generate nearly as much energy here just to knock the Banes back, who are five feet away from him.
3. We have little reason to believe he'd even need to gesture, when Caedus is ragdolling prime-Jaina without one.

For all these reasons he should be able to unleash an attack before any of the Bane's can strike.Valkorion is an intelligent being, aware of his own strengths and can see events in slow motion, he's more than capable of calculating whether or not a TK attack would be sufficient without actually trying it, and if he deemed it was not, he would conjure a barrier instead.

The fact he hasn't used such a tactic, being hardly a point when he's never been in this kind of situation. And of course he's logically capable.

This being one of a myriad of powers he has at his disposal, giving him a myriad of options. Frankly he should be logically capable of teleporting, considering lesser contemporaries like Revan and Jadus can. Assaulting their minds simultaneously is also surely an option.

Altogether its just not logical to conclude Valkorion, one of the most powerful Force users ever, would be ensnared by this trap.

I would be participating but you have it more than covered 👆 👆 👆

You think 10 DOE Bane's would get raped by Valkorion. You're making the right choice leaving this side of the argument to Beni tbh.

He's completely right, DMB. It's laughable that this thread is still going. It should be clear how easy it would be for Valkorion to just wipe em out. He's capapble of slowing down time, and by doing such would be able to very simply Force jump or teleport out of the way it just put up a barrier or blast them away with a Force wave.

He means you're a shit debater.

Basically yeah

You should argue for Bane, DMB. Carthage wants your rage. Give it to him.

That may be; but I argue for the right side in this case

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You should argue for Bane, DMB. Carthage wants your rage. Give it to him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because a planet killer can't TK 10 trainee Banes at once. no expression

It turns out raw output and the ability to do many different things are very different things- especially as we have seen Valk in duels, he doesn't do 10x as much at once as others.

Consider the Death Star superlaser. Can kill a planet, but still only kills capital ships one at a time.

Or again, Dark Empire Palpatine. His force storms can kill almost any foe, but they're slow enough to gather that they are not much use in a duel. Same principle.

Big force powers are almost always slower even when done by the extremely powerful. And here we've put the other side in a situation of extreme speed advantage by putting them at point-blank range completely surrounding. The deck is stacked to provide a handicap to the normally doomed side.

1. Valkorion was channeling his power through an inferior vessel, so its going to require a longer period of exertion.

Does a weaker vessel really affect speed of a *force ability*, or just power?

And note, even half the time would still be slower than a quick lightsaber blow, that was visibly not the quickest of techniques.

2. He doesn't need to generate nearly as much energy here just to knock the Banes back, who are five feet away from him.

Again, you're assuming he can significantly reduce the speed of the move when he was aiming for speed in the video to begin with, not taking his time- and note also the ones he blew away were mooks, these are not.

For all these reasons he should be able to unleash an attack before any of the Bane's can strike.Valkorion is an intelligent being, aware of his own strengths and can see events in slow motion, he's more than capable of calculating whether or not a TK attack would be sufficient without actually trying it, and if he deemed it was not, he would conjure a barrier instead.

Is barrier fast enough? Have we seen him do that super-quick? Barrier tends to be a slower defense put up if someone knows something big is coming.

Simply asking to assume he can do force powers that are usually not super-quick reflex because he's fast is other ways is, IMO, asking for a fair amount of generosity on his side.

Originally posted by Sinious
Its really stupid to think that Bane's can touch him before he can unleash a wave attack tbh. If there is gonna be a debate, it should be about how well can Banes handle his force attacks.

Issue- His wave attack as shown was not all that fast, and all the Banes' need to do is, pretty much, extend their sword arm, the quickest of attacks.

It's yet to be demonstrated that he can pull that off first, you're just asking us to assume it.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
He's completely right, DMB. It's laughable that this thread is still going. It should be clear how easy it would be for Valkorion to just wipe em out. He's capapble of slowing down time, and by doing such would be able to very simply Force jump or teleport out of the way it just put up a barrier or blast them away with a Force wave.

Originally posted by Sinious
Valkorion was operating on such a speed level that other force users appeared to be frozen. He very specifically clarifies that time hasn't stopped, which proves that he is simply that fast.

Like I said, I'm open to 10 Banes winning this if someone can present good enough force feats for PoD Bane.

He's capable of slowing down perception, but note how when an actual force power is used, that's cut back into real-time.

Meaning, his shockwave isn't something that can be done in that slow-time mode, only conversation and the like.

Also, Tondemonai - I don't see you providing any arguments.

What is with this latest group of, "Oh, it's horrible that we're having to actually discuss things out/let us scoff at those actually putting down an argument" posters? It's silly, and just makes debating skills rusty at best. Even if one knows the outcome, it is much better to present the arguments.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The way the wave was actually described by Lana afterwards makes it sound like it happened in a instant anyway. But what does she know? She was only there and everything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

The way the wave was actually described by Lana afterwards makes it sound like it happened in a instant anyway. But what does she know? She was only there and everything.

You do know we saw the wave on video, yes? We don't have to guess.

TIL: Q99, pioneer of more numbers is more better, who not only just saw this for the first time, and has not played this game, is a bigger authority than those who have and one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Empire in what actually happened.
In short, no one is guessing but you, and you being a contrarian has gone from slightly amusing to very stupid.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
TIL: Q99, pioneer of more numbers is more better, who not only just saw this for the first time, and has not played this game, is a bigger authority than those who have and one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the Empire in what actually happened.

I like how you're trying to sidestep that we all saw the same scene in the same video.

Does having played the game make the video play faster?

I also find it funny how you think more fighters is not useful to have in a fight.

You should learn to debate from DMB and Beniboybling, they're a lot better at it.

Why would I debate with someone blatantly ignoring what's in game? I mean on even the most basic knowledge like the speed of an attack? This isn't a debate; it's you being dumb for no reason at all. Your opinion doesn't override that of someone actually in game, regardless of how impressive your internet random credentials may be. You've given absolutely nothing to show one Bane, let alone ten can defend against Valkorion at any speed. You've given no feats for him that show why his skill is superior to that of an entire army. In fact, you've pretty much just been saying, Nah-nah-nah," in many more words. As much as I'd like to humor you, you aren't worth anyone's time or effort.

Lana wasn't even paying attention to the Outlander. She was a little focused on not dying. So of course when a random wave of power washes over everything and takes out the knights and skytroopers, she's gonna be like "WTF just happened?"

You can clearly see everyone running around and blasterbolts flying, so it's not like it's a time stopped for everyone else type thing.

Actually, she says, when you don't tell her Valkorion is there, that the Knights were there one second, then gone the next, and not only did she not see it, but no one, including Koth, who kind of was playing attention, saw it. This coupled with the fact that the Knight who was in mid-swing to hit Lana, and actually does if you don't use Valkorion's power, means it had to happen really fast. Especially since neither her nor Senya could sense the source.

Originally posted by Q99
It turns out raw output and the ability to do many different things are very different things- especially as we have seen Valk in duels, he doesn't do 10x as much at once as others.

Consider the Death Star superlaser. Can kill a planet, but still only kills capital ships one at a time.

Or again, Dark Empire Palpatine. His force storms can kill almost any foe, but they're slow enough to gather that they are not much use in a duel. Same principle.

Big force powers are almost always slower even when done by the extremely powerful. And here we've put the other side in a situation of extreme speed advantage by putting them at point-blank range completely surrounding. The deck is stacked to provide a handicap to the normally doomed side.

Relative to that this isn't a "big force power" at all in comparison, and we have no basis to assume it will be slow.

Does a weaker vessel really affect speed of a *force ability*, or just power?

And note, even half the time would still be slower than a quick lightsaber blow, that was visibly not the quickest of techniques.

Again, you're assuming he can significantly reduce the speed of the move when he was aiming for speed in the video to begin with, not taking his time- and note also the ones he blew away were mooks, these are not.

Regardless, Fresh is correct tbh. If you refuse Valkorion's help Lana is struck down instantly, and yet if you accept it seemingly takes 5 seconds for the power to reach her. Obviously she would be dead by then, and its artistic license rather than realism that's behind this visual depiction.

Is barrier fast enough? Have we seen him do that super-quick? Barrier tends to be a slower defense put up if someone knows something big is coming.

Heck we even see Arcann conjure one in a fraction of a second to block Valkorion's lightning in the very same game.

Finally I'd appreciate it if you didn't omit parts of my argument however, it comes across as disingenuous. I'm referring to this:

This being one of a myriad of powers he has at his disposal, giving him a myriad of options. Frankly he should be logically capable of teleporting, considering lesser contemporaries like Revan and Jadus can. Assaulting their minds simultaneously is also surely an option.

The fact that Freshest still has to explain this is indeed annoying. I still want to see some showings from Bane.

As Vitiate, he used Force Barrier to protect himself from T3-M4's flamethrower. He put it up instantly, being fast enough to not only disengage his attack and completely refocus on protecting himself. This was an almost instantaneous action; which is all he needs to do to protect himself against the Bane's. Once protected from their attacks, he can simply expand it and release a wave of Force energy, knocking them back, followed up by releasing a similar storm of FL upon them as we saw against the strike team lead by Tol Braga. We have seen, however, that Bane is capable of moving extremely fast. This is, of course, long before his prime and showings of moving fast enough to look like a blur and dodge rain. Carthage stated this is trainee Bane when he lost to Sirak. With this in mind, it can very simply be deducted that Valkorion will be able to protect himself fast enough to survive and retaliate. Bane doesn't have enough feats as of the given incarnation to be able to win.

You know when I first played this, I was thinking more about how powerful he had to be, not how fast his attacks were. By the fact that this, and both of his attacks against Arcann and Marr show tremendous speed. Valkorion gets even more respect.