Referring to Maul:The opinion of one writer, the same writer who claims he would back Maul for a majority over Dooku? Yeah, not really seeing why this is supposed to be irrefutable?
So unless you're suggesting Savage's Force prowess is equivalent or superior to Maul's, that statement pretty much makes it clear that Dooku is indeed above both of them in terms of sheer Force power.Well, I'm enjoying this. You started with "significantly above" and have retreated to Savage simply not being Dooku's equal. I agree, he isn't. But he's powerful enough that Dooku isn't going to make him budge with TK. As for Maul vs Dooku, that's another tangent for another thread.
Savage has never demonstrated the ability to move around large metallic and stone chunks like it was nothing, just like Dooku does against Yoda.And your point is? Dooku has never demonstrated the ability to destroy nigh-indestructible Mandalorian Iron. Do you seriously think "I haven't seen it happen, therefore it can't ever happen" is a logical argument?
He also manages to blast away a group of Pykes alongside flooring Anakin and Obi-Wan even while they were clearly attempting to resist the wave.That's cute.
Also lifts a dozen obelisk stones, pulls down a huge metallic bridge down, collapses huge cave-boulders in an attempt to crush Kenobi and Anakin,Your point being? Dooku overall has a better record of lifting/moving big things, very good - we also haven't seen Savage in his prime attempt to. That doesn't conclude this huge superiority you're trying to prove on it's own.
and just pretty much TKs and chokes everyone around a lot more often and effectively than Savage.No doubt he's more precise with it as seen with Kenobi, and I agree he is more powerful than Savage. I'm just trying to work out where you get this massive disparity from when there clearly isn't one, even by Season 3, when it required all of Dooku and Ventress' combined power just to fend off Savage momentarily.
"When Opress realised that Ventress was merely using him to satisfy her own revenge, he turned on her as well as Dooku. It took all the power of both darksiders to fend off Opress' attack."-Star Wars Fact File 31 (2014)
"He turned on both Ventress and Dooku, who were force to work together to defeat the powerful Savage."-Star Wars Fact File 31 (2014)
Originally posted by ILS
The opinion of [b]one writer, the same writer who claims he would back Maul for a majority over Dooku?[/B]
When did he make that claim?
Well, I'm enjoying this. You started with "significantly above" and have retreated to Savage simply not being Dooku's equal. I agree, he isn't. But he's powerful enough that Dooku isn't going to make him budge with TK. As for Maul vs Dooku, that's another tangent for another thread.
All I'm saying is that Dooku is above Savage in every combat aspect. If you agree, then we have no points to discuss.
And your point is? Dooku has never demonstrated the ability to destroy nigh-indestructible Mandalorian Iron. Do you seriously think "I haven't seen it happen, therefore it can't ever happen" is a logical argument?
As far as feats go, Dooku has the upper hand. That's all. It doesn't mean Savage can't do it, but we'll know if he can until we see him do it. I think saying 'well we've not seen Ventress pull a Force storm, doesn't mean she can't' argument is the non-logical one. We haven't seen it happen, so why argue that it can happen until it actually does? Savage hasn't demonstrated he has Dooku level abilities, so let's not assume he has. He is impressive, tho, I do agree on that.
And considering Dooku is Savage's superior, by your own admission, why wouldn't he be able to destroy Mandalorian Iron? I think it's logical to assume that if Dooku is Savage's superior in every angle (even if the gap isn't as significant), he could indeed destroy Mandalorian Iron. It doesn't apply the other way around.
That's cute.
Kenobi and Anakin didn't even attempt to block that one. It caught them off-guard. In the gif I posted, they try to resist it and are still pushed back a couple of meters, and even with their attempt at resisting the push and decreasing its strength, the Pykes behind them are still sent flying away. Also, you can clearly see it's taking Savage a whole lot of effort to perform that wave. Dooku does it casually.
Your point being? Dooku overall has a better record of lifting/moving big things, very good - we also haven't seen Savage in his prime attempt to. That doesn't conclude this huge superiority you're trying to prove on it's own.
No doubt he's more precise with it as seen with Kenobi, and I agree he is more powerful than Savage. I'm just trying to work out where you get this massive disparity from when there clearly isn't one, even by Season 3, when it required all of Dooku and Ventress' combined power just to fend off Savage momentarily.
Would you say Dooku going one-on-one versus Savage would lose? Because if not, that fight against him, alongside Ventress, is an anomaly in the sense that Savage dug deep into his rage to give him the necessary strength. We don't see Savage pull that kind of fight ever again vs. the Count. I'd say 10/10 times Dooku beats Savage one-on-one. What that scene showed us is that Savage indeed has a lot of raw power and scary strength, not that he'd give Dooku a run for his money on a straight up duel.
On another forum in reply to Erkan/Marco.
Not to be nitpicky, but no, Dooku isn't above Savage in "every combat aspect", otherwise he wouldn't be getting flung into walls by the sheer strength of Savage's blows. If you want my approval that Dooku would probably win in a fight, you have it, but then I'm not overly fond of that idea without someone making a real argument for it. Savage grew substantially as a fighter after a time where he was already giving Dooku a handful, you're being actively ignorant to rule out the idea of Dooku ever losing to Savage.
As far as feats go, Dooku has the upper hand. That's all. It doesn't mean Savage can't do it, but we'll know if he can until we see him do it. I think saying 'well we've not seen Ventress pull a Force storm, doesn't mean she can't' argument is the non-logical one.The only reason I would conclusively put Dooku above Savage as a telekinetic is his choking of Kenobi and the simple fact he's more precise, whereas Savage usually unleashes large waves. Like I said, we haven't seen Savage try to pull down the same bridges and what not, so it's a weak argument to suggest Dooku is better than him because he's been seen doing so. Hence why I said "we haven't seen Dooku bust Mandalorian Iron" as a counter-retort. The argument goes both ways and it does little in the way of getting a real answer.
We haven't seen it happen, so why argue that it can happen until it actually does? Savage hasn't demonstrated he has Dooku level abilities, so let's not assume he has.Maybe reading is a lost art. I was pointing out the weakness in your argument, not seriously suggesting Savage is Dooku's equal just because he broke a prison cell.
And considering Dooku is Savage's superior, by your own admission, why wouldn't he be able to destroy Mandalorian Iron?Because, in the absence of other evidence like ragdolling Kenobi, I wouldn't see much reason to assume anything other than that they're pretty close. We have that evidence, so I do agree Dooku would be able to break it.
As for the rest, while they don't necessarily have their defences up I'm a bit more lenient when you consider that Force Shield is such a basic ability, and that Savage's blast was omnidirectional, not focused solely on them. If it was I'm not sure how much better they would fare.
As for his increased effort... bare in mind he kind of just got finished fighting Ventress and Dooku at the same time, being smashed with lightning that has killed other Force users, repeatedly, followed up by fighting Kenobi and Anakin, and finally having been shot by hundreds of blaster bolts. He was being shot by those blaster bolts while charging up the blast, in fact, so again I'm pretty lenient.
Would you say Dooku going one-on-one versus Savage would lose? Because if not, that fight against him, alongside Ventress, is an anomaly in the sense that Savage dug deep into his rage to give him the necessary strength. We don't see Savage pull that kind of fight ever again vs. the Count. I'd say 10/10 times Dooku beats Savage one-on-one. What that scene showed us is that Savage indeed has a lot of raw power and scary strength, not that he'd give Dooku a run for his money on a straight up duel.
Also... not sure how you managed to interpret Dooku feeling overwhelmed by Savage even with Ventress' help as some kind of evidence that Savage will never give him a run for his money. Savage only grew more powerful after that point, with every passing day according to Dooku himself who could feel Savage growing more powerful from arcoss the galaxy. He even flat out says "he is a threat to us all". If that doesn't spell out trouble to you then I don't know what will.
Originally posted by SiniousUh, were we watching the same fight? Savage had Dooku cornered early on without Ventress' assistance and was only held off by Dooku's lightning from there on out. From there it was stated in the Fact File that the combined might of Ventress and Dooku was needed to fend Savage off.
Pretty sure Dooku's handling of Savage while fighting Ventress was also a direct comparison.
In more plain terms; they ran away from him.
Originally posted by SiniousHe went from struggling to lift obelisks to shattering a virtually indestructible metal which was melded into a prison cell. I'd say he became pretty fugging powerful.
I'm just saying their fight is a more obvious example of how much more powerful Dooku was at the time. Though, I'm still not sure how much more Savage grew in power exactly after that.
Originally posted by SiniousLmao, it was his first time combating lightning. As I said, with Maul's tutelage, the experience gained from the fight and the cut footage showing him deflecting Sidious' lightning, I'd say it's a safe bet he knew what to do after that point. Lightning aside he wasn't being "handled" and Ventress' emotion-fueled commentary means jackshit. Try again.
Lol that doesn't change the fact that Dooku handled him with such ease that it made Ventress mock Savage for his weakness.
It's like you and Neph can't physically prevent yourselves from nitpicking anything and everything that could lower Savage's standing. Talk about open bias.
Originally posted by Nephthyshttp://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/i_like_swords/lists/top-10-favourite-sith-lords/58737/
Lol @ ****in' ILS talking about open bias when it comes to a Zabrak Bro.
Savage doesn't make my list and I'm currently defending him against my number 3. I actually present arguments; you cling to the sidelines and lick Malgus, Bane and most other bald character's balls while hopping on the PT-sucks bandwagon. This isn't even a comparison. Like, you are literally haunted at night by CW era characters and have Darth Bane wallpaper in your bedroom.
Originally posted by ILS
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/i_like_swords/lists/top-10-favourite-sith-lords/58737/Savage doesn't make my list and I'm currently defending him against my number 3. I actually present arguments; you cling to the sidelines and lick Malgus, Bane and most other bald character's balls while hopping on the PT-sucks bandwagon. This isn't even a comparison.
What about Vader? Technically he's bald.