Vaylin vs. Darth Malak

Started by Beniboybling5 pages
Beniboybling Worst Member

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Mical says Revan went back to Traya after the Mandalorian Wars, while Kreia says Revan came to her to learn how to leave the Jedi, something he wouldn't do while championing the Jedi.
Not true, he said he went back to Kreia/Arren Kae, Mical didn't even know who Darth Traya was.

Revan wasn't championing the Jedi during the war, he abandoned the Order, created his own sect, began dabbling in the dark side, then corrupted them all to the Sith during the Battle of Malachor V. Mical is referring to the moment before the initial schism, where he decides to defy the Council.

Nihilus was feeding on Malachor, and that means students. I highly doubt Revan would let him roam free.
Or other survivors. Regardless fact remains he only achieves his true potential under Traya.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not true, he said he went back to Kreia/Arren Kae, Mical didn't even know who Darth Traya was.

You serious? Traya and Kreia are the same person, so while Revan may have not met Darh Traya, he did met Kreia, which is what I said anyway.

Revan wasn't championing the Jedi during the war, he abandoned the Order, created his own sect, began dabbling in the dark side, then corrupted them all to the Sith during the Battle of Malachor V. Mical is referring to the moment before the initial schism. Or other survivors.

Given how the TOR novel plays out, with no one being Sith before meeting Vitiate, that's no longer true. And he said after his return from the Unknown Regions. that would be after he met Vitiate.
Regardless fact remains he only achieves his true potential under Traya.

True, he's still incredibly powerful, which is what matters when discussing why he would even bother letting Malak continue to exist.

Beniboybling Worst Member

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You serious? Traya and Kreia are the same person, so while Revan may have not met Darh Traya, he did met Kreia, which is what I said anyway.
Yes. They may be the same person but they are distinctly different personas that occupy different time periods. Mical does not know who Darth Traya is, he doesn't even know who Kreia is, he, in his conversation with the Exile is speaking of Arren Kae who the player is led to infer is Kreia before she left the Jedi Order. With her Sith persona adopted, Kreia never met Revan.

And what you said is that Darth Traya served under Revan's Sith Empire, this is not true.

Given how the TOR novel plays out, with no one being Sith before meeting Vitiate, that's no longer true.
Not really. The TOR novel and surrounding content actually makes it clear that Revan was had almost completely embraced the dark side by the time he faced Vitiate:

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

We don't have to use the term Sith, but Revan and his followers were not Jedi.

And he said after his return from the Unknown Regions. that would be after he met Vitiate.
No. He and Kreia herself said Revan came to her after he'd learned "everything he could" from the others masters. No mention of the Unknown Regions is made, at all.
True, he's still incredibly powerful, which is what matters when discussing why he would even bother letting Malak continue to exist.
OK, but maybe he like never joined Revan's Sith, and Revan never knew of him, since that's nowhere stated.

Syndicate Senior Member

So Benni's the actually knowledgable person on this forum? Huh. Whodathunk.

Beniboybling Worst Member

gtfo

And it's Beni. *****.

Syndicate Senior Member

Originally posted by Beniboybling
gtfo

And it's Beni. *****.

Got a problem?

Beniboybling Worst Member

Yes. an hero 🙂

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes. They may be the same person but they are distinctly different personas that occupy different time periods. Mical does not know who Darth Traya is, he doesn't even know who Kreia is, he, in his conversation with the Exile is speaking of Arren Kae who the player is led to infer is Kreia before she left the Jedi Order. With her Sith persona adopted, Kreia never met Revan.

she already left the Order after Revan betrayed the Republic, so semantics aside, it's still a Sith Empire which Malak and Revan were both a part of. There's also Avellone stating Revan would have an even easier time of dealing with Kreia than the Exile would, where as revan's duel with Malak was strained at best given the circumstances. But that deals more in how you compare KotOR revan to any Revan Avellone dreamed up for himself, which I'll admit is pretty out there.

And what you said is that Darth Traya served under Revan's Sith Empire, this is not true.

What I said is that they were Sith, which is definitely true. You can act like Traya and Kreia or Kae or whatever, are radically different people in power and philosophy, but they aren't.

Not really. The TOR novel and surrounding content actually makes it clear that Revan was had almost completely embraced the dark side by the time he faced Vitiate:

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.


"But though we had underestimated the Emperor’s power, he underestimated us, as well. Our wills were stronger than he thought; our minds twisted and perverted his instructions until we thought we were acting of our own accord. Malak and I were turned to the dark side, but in doing so we found the strength to block out all memory of the Sith and the Emperor, partially freeing us from his control.”

So whether you want to act like they were hand-wringing psychopaths or on the threshold of evil, they were acting as Jedi and went to Sith space specifically to stop Vitiate, not capture and torture Jedi as depicted in KotOR II. Obviously he was on the brink, but they were Jedi and not practicers of the Dark Side all the same.


We don't have to use the term Sith, but Revan and his followers were not Jedi.
No. He and Kreia herself said Revan came to her after he'd learned "everything he could" from the others masters. No mention of the Unknown Regions is made, at all.

Pretty sure Mical said Revan came to his first master after his return, and again where did Revan in the novel state he was planning to leave the Jedi?

OK, but maybe he like never joined Revan's Sith, and Revan never knew of him, since that's nowhere stated.

Why would Revan never know of the life-draining, Force ending entity that's traveling around his Academy feeding until all others are dead? It's not like there is anyone else alive on Malachor to feed him.

Sinious Yo Da Best

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did you forget how to read, Sinious?
That together with what Beni said led me to believe their argument is that her TK isn't gonna help her in combat. Isn't that what they're saying?

In any case, Vaylin was fighting her mother, and we know she already isn't balanced and in control of her powers as well as a random force user (I think she is quite similar to Anakin in this sense though not as talented but also not as distracted). So, it really isn't surprising to see her underperform against her mother.

She actually ripped off things from her environment to throw at her mother in a similar way to her best TK feat. In fact, her mother jumped back and gave her enough time to deploy TK. However, it was in a much smaller scale but its not like she actually failed to show the mastery of overwhelming another force user's force defenses with her TK. And given it's quite a personal moment for both sides, I hardly think that fight fully represents Vaylin's capabilities in combat. And Vaylin's TK feats aren't really as sophisticated as moving blackholes or manipulating midi-chlorains so not seeing how she'd have trouble ripping shit off with TK in combat given the opportunity. If she failed to do as well as she did when she tore down that huge building, it's most likely caused by an emotional state of mind she was in, instead of some magical reason that doesn't allow her to lift the simple material around her with TK. This of course is just my interpretation of the fight, but I think it makes more sense than any other interpretation I saw in this thread.

I agree with Beni. Malak is indeed capable of replicating that feat. If Vaylin performed as poorly, Malak would defeat her. Unfortunately, he doesn't look like Senya that much. Also, If "Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child", than how does Senya defeating grown up Vaylin with no morals make sense to you? Vaylin isn't retarded lol.

With that said, Malak is indeed more balanced, and the superior duelist. Imo, that's not enough for him to survive against her raw power.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by Sinious
That together with what Beni said led me to believe their argument is that her TK isn't gonna help her in combat. Isn't that what they're saying?

No, he thinks she has lackluster combat feats.


In any case, Vaylin was fighting her mother, and we know she already isn't balanced and in control of her powers as well as a random force user (I think she is quite similar to Anakin in this sense though not as talented but also not as distracted). So, it really isn't surprising to see her underperform against her mother.

She was absolutely trying to kill her, and was not hindered in anyway. She definitely states as much from that point on as well.

Sinious Yo Da Best

It isn't stated that she was hindered, that's why I said it is my interpretation, and explained the reason behind it.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Vaylin is crazy, and from that point on, only talks about how much she wants to kill her mother, is what's stated. There's no reason to think she was hindered at all.

Syndicate Senior Member
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vaylin is crazy, and from that point on, only talks about how much she wants to kill her mother, is what's stated. There's no reason to think she was hindered at all.

Azula was crazy too. Look at how hindered she was in her fight with Zuko.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Did you just use Avatar as a source for a Star Wars debate?

Sinious Yo Da Best

Her mother beat her lol of course she'll say shit like "I'm going to kill her". Like you said, she is crazy, and crazy people tend to react more emotionally and imbalanced towards personal matters.

JKBart Restricted
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yeah Malak doesn't really have any truly impressive Force feats to his name. And saberwise, he's a very capable duelist, enough to give KOTOR Revan a run for his money, but I don't see how he's beating Vaylin all-out.

Nah man, he has truly impressive Force feats that can rival or surpass Bane or Maul. If you want I can give you a run through them.

FreshestSlice Eternal Commander

Originally posted by Sinious
Her mother beat her lol of course she'll say shit like "I'm going to kill her". Like you said, she is crazy, and crazy people tend to react more emotionally and imbalanced towards personal matters.

Except she's always hated her mother. She thinks she's the one that convinced Valkorion to go father of the year on her head and that Senya wants to keep her prisoner. She really doesn't like that, it turns out, so she feels Senya is a jailer who also abandoned her. Which makes her angry. Which makes her want to kill.

Sinious Yo Da Best

And if you seriously can't understand the difference between being angry at family and being angry at a stranger, I'm not surprised that you disagree with my interpretation. The latter is a much less complex situation that can simply fuel one's power, and the other can leave the imbalanced, well even more imbalanced.

I'm not saying Vaylin would always perform at her best where she can use her raw power to its fullest and defeat anyone who doesn't have her TK feats, but to think that her fight against Senya is her usual performance is silly imo.

Beniboybling Worst Member

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
she already left the Order after Revan betrayed the Republic
According to Mical.

Kreia herself said that she was blamed for Revan leaving the Order (as well as other students) and exiled after him.

Regardless its besides the point, whether she had left or not this happened prior to her discovery of Malachor and her fall to the dark side, and prior to Revan's fall as well.

so semantics aside, it's still a Sith Empire which Malak and Revan were both a part of.
I don't even know what you are talking about tbh but here are the facts, prior to leaving the Order and joining the Mandalorian Wars Revan sought Kreia's advice, before she fell and adopted the moniker of Traya, and after that they never ever met ever again, and she certainly was never a member of his Sith Empire. End of discussion.
There's also Avellone stating Revan would have an even easier time of dealing with Kreia than the Exile would, where as revan's duel with Malak was strained at best given the circumstances. But that deals more in how you compare KotOR revan to any Revan Avellone dreamed up for himself, which I'll admit is pretty out there.
OK. If you want to put Revan above Kreia that's cool, but her being his Sith underling is not a valid reason.
What I said is that they were Sith, which is definitely true. You can act like Traya and Kreia or Kae or whatever, are radically different people in power and philosophy, but they aren't.
See above.
So whether you want to act like they were hand-wringing psychopaths or on the threshold of evil, they were acting as Jedi and went to Sith space specifically to stop Vitiate, not capture and torture Jedi as depicted in KotOR II. Obviously he was on the brink, but they were Jedi and not practicers of the Dark Side all the same.
No they were acting as protectors of the Republic and the larger galaxy, they didn't give a frak about the Jedi.

They stopped being real Jedi the moment Revan found the first Star Map on Dantooine, as Malak states, there was no going back after that. And the SWTORE states they explored ancient Sith teaching during the Mandalorian Wars, as do multiple other sources, which have not been retconned, so again no.

Pretty sure Mical said Revan came to his first master after his return,
No, he didn't. Look it up.
and again where did Revan in the novel state he was planning to leave the Jedi?
What? You realise the Revan novel takes place after Revan left the Jedi, fell to the dark side, trashed the Jedi, got redeemed, and rejoined the Order again? Right?
Why would Revan never know of the life-draining, Force ending entity that's traveling around his Academy feeding until all others are dead? It's not like there is anyone else alive on Malachor to feed him.
Like I said, if Nihilus was left stranded on Malachor, don't see why others wouldn't have been.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because not ten minutes before they were dying from carbonite poisoning over a five year period? Which, surprisingly enough, is the reason given in game.

Lana Beniko came out of carbonite as well?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Okay, but going by that logic, Senya shouldn't be able to defeat Vaylin, but that's obviously not true, and given Senya's zero impressive feats, I really don't think it matters as much as you think it does.

You are wrong:

Senya is very powerful.