Vaylin vs. Darth Malak

Originally posted by Sinious
In any case, Vaylin was fighting her mother, and we know she already isn't balanced and in control of her powers as well as a random force user (I think she is quite similar to Anakin in this sense though not as talented but also not as distracted). So, it really isn't surprising to see her underperform against her mother.

She actually ripped off things from her environment to throw at her mother in a similar way to her best TK feat. In fact, her mother jumped back and gave her enough time to deploy TK. However, it was in a much smaller scale but its not like she actually failed to show the mastery of overwhelming another force user's force defenses with her TK. And given it's quite a personal moment for both sides, I hardly think that fight fully represents Vaylin's capabilities in combat. And Vaylin's TK feats aren't really as sophisticated as moving blackholes or manipulating midi-chlorains so not seeing how she'd have trouble ripping shit off with TK in combat given the opportunity. If she failed to do as well as she did when she tore down that huge building, it's most likely caused by an emotional state of mind she was in, instead of some magical reason that doesn't allow her to lift the simple material around her with TK. This of course is just my interpretation of the fight, but I think it makes more sense than any other interpretation I saw in this thread.

I agree with Beni. Malak is indeed capable of replicating that feat. If Vaylin performed as poorly, Malak would defeat her. Unfortunately, he doesn't look like Senya that much. Also, If "Senya couldn't even match Vaylin's strength in the Force as a child", than how does Senya defeating grown up Vaylin with no morals make sense to you? Vaylin isn't retarded lol.

With that said, Malak is indeed more balanced, and the superior duelist. Imo, that's not enough for him to survive against her raw power.

ANALOGY: Anakin Skywalker didn't achieve a breakthrough against Obi-Wan Kenobi in a confrontation on Mustafar but he killed Count Dooku earlier. So should we disregard Anakin's accomplishments because he failed in one duel?

It is foolish to underestimate Vaylin for not achieving a breakthrough in a confrontation against her mother. This fight was different for her then others.

However, Vaylin did remark (later-on) that she will not spare her mother next time, should they meet again. This remark implies that she was mentally conflicted during her confrontation with her mother.

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

She is really powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My thoughts exactly.

ANALOGY: Anakin Skywalker didn't achieve a breakthrough against Obi-Wan Kenobi in a confrontation on Mustafar but he killed Count Dooku earlier. So should we disregard Anakin's accomplishments because he failed in one duel?

It is foolish to underestimate Vaylin for not achieving a breakthrough in a confrontation against her mother. This fight was different for her then others.

However, Vaylin did remark (later-on) that she will not spare her mother next time, should they meet again. This remark implies that she was mentally conflicted during her confrontation with her mother.

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

She is really powerful.

👆

@ Legend,

Yeah, I think if Senya and Vaylin fight again any time soon, Senya probably won't survive that confrontation this time.

It's clear that Vaylin was more mentally unstable during this fight than others. Not only that, but her comment about not sparing Senya next time implies that she was not aiming to kill her. On top of that, Senya later comments that Vaylin told her that Arcann killed Thexan, which devastated her. Vaylin clearly did this to get a rise out of her mum. This fight wasn't one that Vaylin intended to end with either one dead. If it were, with her previous showings, she'd have ended it much sooner. She's also depicted as having two lightsabers in the cover image on the loading screen for KotFE. We've only ever seen her use one, so it can easily be inferred that she performs best when utilizing a second lightsaber in combat.

The only person clearly uncommitted in this fight is Senya. Assuming that Vaylin was not on her A-game but Senya was is silly.

Not implying she was

Good, then you'll understand if they were both going all out, the fight would have ended the same. 👆

I agree with Beni, honestly. Vaylin clearly wants to kill her mother, where as Senya clearly wants to blame everyone but her children for their problems. It's obvious who was going all out and who wasn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Moreover, Senya is severely underestimated:

She is really powerful.

Yeah that gid doesn't show anything tbh. Outlander wasn't even looking at her, and certainly didn't even attempt to block the push.

Seems like the same off guard tooling we see befall Senya herself at the hands of Heskal.

Only worse because there's no time to react and the Outlander isn't looking.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Did you just use Avatar as a source for a Star Wars debate?

I used an example of emotionally hindered characters having problems in battle, yes.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Assuming that Vaylin was not on her A-game but Senya was is silly.

It's a much better conclusion to make than, "We don't have enough evidence one way or the other, so I'm going to make the opposite conclusion which has none at all."

Damn, you're right. I totally made up the fact that Vaylin didn't have access to her insane power until recently, and that she managed to use that power in other occasions.

Originally posted by Sinious
You can see that I said it is an emotional fight for both sides. But, since we know Vaylin has insane raw power, but can't always properly command it cause she only recently gained access to it, her performance can vary more than someone like Malak. Considering how she is psychologically hindered like permanently, and displayed great application of TK earlier in the game, I think looking at that one fight and placing her this low (like "Senya is featless and Vaylin is below her so she can't even defeat Malak" low) is also silly.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

Alternatively, manipulating massive objects in the heat of battle isn't a good move because they tend to be unwieldy, slow and awkward. Doesn't mean they can't harness similar levels of power.

Also Vader did throw that large platform at Marek in TFU2.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But really on what grounds? Your assuming that, in general, the telekinetic ability of a Force user outside of a combat situation should be equal or comparable to their telekinetic ability within one.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

Well Vader collapses a tree thats several hundred meters tall when fighting the Dark Woman I believe while Galen has TK'ed thousands of droids whilst in combat, cleared an entire platform of an army, collapsed the supports of an orbital superstructure and powered a cannon that pierced through a Star Destroyer while there was still stormtroopers around. Yoda's best TK feats come during one of the most chaotic battles of the Clone Wars, the Battle of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But really on what grounds? Your assuming that, in general, the telekinetic ability of a Force user outside of a combat situation should be equal or comparable to their telekinetic ability within one.

But where is your precedent? Where do we see Vader lifting AT-AT size objects in fights? Or Marek TKing Star Destroyers? Or Yoda TKing entire armies? If you look at those individuals in particular, you'll notice their abilities are largely much more stayed in combat situations than outside of them.

Common sense reason being that they are not able to achieve the same level of concentration in the heat of battle. Something logically even harder for someone so inexperienced as Vaylin.

On the other hand as a lightsaber combatant, despite her raw strength, it's clear Vaylin is no match for a accomplished duelist like Malak.

So you're suggesting that Vader's much respected (by everyone including yourself I'm sure) TK feats are not even comparable to what he is capable of in combat. Got it.

Your logic is that Senya is featless and Vaylin lost to her. Therefore, anyone who has feats can defeat Vaylin. And you're shameless enough to talk about common sense, Beni. 😘

Lmao, 2/10 response.