Originally posted by Stoic
But that's only because he never faced a character capable of putting him down. Savage Hulk didn't beat him, but he swung him around. Merged Hulk bent him over with a gut punch showing that he could have been hurt. Classic was categorized as being unbeatable in the hand books, but those are hand books. Colossus was able to stand his ground with classic Cain as well. Surely he had limits right? WB Hulk was written to be well above anything that classic Juggernaut has ever faced. From what I recall, 8th Day Juggernaut was Cain at his most powerful barring Trion.
IOW, WBH can overpower an Elder God's power in Cytorrak, and kill Juggy?
That's a tall order, tbh.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hint: Its in the thread where the winner is the last one alive.Dropping Juggy is all well and good, but itmeans nothing if the winner is the last one alive.
We've seen Juggys HF. We've seen his immortality, his FF. Pure physical attacks (like here in this thread) won't kill him.
Loeb Rulk has the best chance to drop him, what with his Loeb Force. WBH ain't doing it.
None of these guys are hurting WB Hulk though, so if this comes down to who will outlive the other in terms of longevity you may be correct, but there is no way for Cain to get the better of that version of the Hulk. Not happening, he has never displayed that kind of power before.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
IOW, WBH can overpower an Elder God's power in Cytorrak, and kill Juggy?That's a tall order, tbh.
When did it say that Cain had all of Cytorrak's power? Also we have no idea how powerful Cytorrak is, he may even be less powerful than Cain himself according to a poorly written comic of when they faced off against each other. I don't even want to get into that mess. However, on panel, Cain has never showed that he had the ability to defeat a being of WB Hulk's power level, while the Hulk without going that high defeated Loeb Rulk with a hand clap.
Originally posted by StoicHe was literally unfazed by the Godblast as well--it just pushed him back slightly. This is the same blast that can harm Galactus and Celestials.
But that's only because he never faced a character capable of putting him down. Savage Hulk didn't beat him, but he swung him around. Merged Hulk bent him over with a gut punch showing that he could have been hurt. Classic was categorized as being unbeatable in the hand books, but those are hand books. Colossus was able to stand his ground with classic Cain as well. Surely he had limits right? WB Hulk was written to be well above anything that classic Juggernaut has ever faced. From what I recall, 8th Day Juggernaut was Cain at his most powerful barring Trion.
But anyway, the only thing ever shown capable of bypassing the force-field was a specific enchantment from Mjolnir. Nothing else was ever stated to have penetrated it. Fortunately, no one on the field possesses high-end magics. 🙂
Anywho, there are only a handful of comics that actually reference and/or depict Juggernaut's force-field. The consensus is that the FF simply made Juggernaut *too* uber, so most writers purposefully overlooked it over the years, and just gave him a lot of physical durability w/o the FF.
Originally posted by Stoic
When did it say that Cain had all of Cytorrak's power? Also we have no idea how powerful Cytorrak is, he may even be less powerful than Cain himself according to a poorly written comic of when they faced off against each other. I don't even want to get into that mess. However, on panel, Cain has never showed that he had the ability to defeat a being of WB Hulk's power level, while the Hulk without going that high defeated Loeb Rulk with a hand clap.
What comics are u referring to with cytorrak
Originally posted by StoicSo because there simply weren't any beings like WBH around back in the late-80s/early-90s for Juggernaut to fight, it means WBH is > by default? Can't follow that logic at all.
Cain has never showed that he had the ability to defeat a being of WB Hulk's power level
On the flip side, WBH has never shown the ability to down an opponent as durable as classic Juggernaut(/w/ FF in place.) The ability to easily destroy a planet is not indicative of such, imo.
Originally posted by StoicThis might impress me more if Rulk were even remotely close to Juggernaut's durability tier.
while the Hulk without going that high defeated Loeb Rulk with a hand clap.
Originally posted by Galan007
He was literally unfazed by the Godblast as well--it just pushed him back slightly. This is the same blast that can harm Galactus and Celestials.But anyway, the only thing ever shown capable of bypassing the force-field was a specific enchantment from Mjolnir. Nothing else was ever stated to have penetrated it. Fortunately, no one on the field possesses high-end magics. 🙂
Anywho, there are only a handful of comics that actually reference and/or depict Juggernaut's force-field. The consensus is that the FF simply made Juggernaut *too* uber, so most writers purposefully overlooked it over the years, and just gave him a lot of physical durability w/o the FF.
I know all about that in terms of Thor's G-Blast, but there are things out there that are even more powerful than something capable of harming Galactus. Bringing Galactus up is also a bad idea because Galactus has variable levels of power. The FF have hurt Galactus, Beta Ray Bill has hurt Galactus, etc. Galactus has gone toe to toe with Mephisto in his realm, and took on the In-Betweener and got the better of him. As for the force field, I've always thought it to be artistic rendition. All the same, Cain has never shown the might that it would take to harm WB Hulk if we consider that the Hulk was completely unfazed by 3 class 100 level characters of Cain's strength level. When Merged Hulk bent Cain over, that was the era that could be considered classic Juggernaut.
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
A few things.1. WBH is like 200 ft tall
2. Half of WBH feat belongs to red she hulk
3. WBH died from that punch
1. He isn't that tall throughout the entire arc.
2. read how a Red Hulk's power works, and then look for a time when Rulk overheated due to using his power, and then take into account what the Wishing Well did to Betty.
3. I never saw the Hulk die. That's been up for debate for a long time. Some buy it, some don't. Since i didn't see it, I don't buy it. Pak would have to be the deciding factor. Consumer opinion does not matter.
Originally posted by Sin I AM
What comics are u referring to with cytorrak
You should google it. Someone posted scans of Cain beating up on Cyttorak several yrs ago when i was under the impression that Cytorrak was likely more powerful than Odin, and perhaps even able to defeat Galactus. You'll have to search around for it.
Originally posted by Galan007
So because there simply weren't any beings like WBH around back in the late-80s/early-90s for Juggernaut to fight, it means WBH is > by default? Can't follow that logic at all.On the flip side, WBH has never shown the ability to down an opponent as durable as classic Juggernaut(/w/ FF in place.) The ability to easily destroy a planet is not indicative of such, imo.
This might impress me more if Rulk were even remotely close to Juggernaut's durability tier.
Well when you have characters of Colossus' level being able to fight him for prolonged periods of time, it seems pretty logical to me, that Cain is simply not on the level of a guy many times more powerful than Hercules. I don't see how Cain would hurt WB Hulk, but I can see WB Hulk swatting him around and looking a lot more dominant in a fight. He may not keep him down, but i don't see him causing WB hulk to sweat.
Originally posted by StoicExcept when Thor used it on Galactus, I don't believe he was stated to be hungry/depowered, and it harmed him to such an extent that he actually fled for his life. So yeah...
I know all about that in terms of Thor's G-Blast, but there are things out there that are even more powerful than something capable of harming Galactus. Bringing Galactus up is also a bad idea because Galactus has variable levels of power. The FF have hurt Galactus, Beta Ray Bill has hurt Galactus, etc. Galactus has gone toe to toe with Mephisto in his realm, and took on the In-Betweener and got the better of him.
Originally posted by StoicThe force-field is invisible, so I don't know why you'd think that. The in-comic references to it are all we can really go by. That said, it has been referenced in a handful of comics, but more often than not, it's ignored for reasons I've already mentioned.
As for the force field, I've always thought it to be artistic rendition.
Originally posted by StoicI never once said(or even implied) that classic Juggs can match WBH's strength. I am merely saying that Juggs will ultimately be the last one standing because of his ridiculous durability.
All the same, Cain has never shown the might that it would take to harm WB Hulk if we consider that the Hulk was completely unfazed by 3 class 100 level characters of Cain's strength level. When Merged Hulk bent Cain over, that was the era that could be considered classic Juggernaut.
Originally posted by Sin I AMIn this thread Juggy's FF will be up, thus any showings which do not depict him with a FF are irrelevant unless the other bricks here have a way to shut it down.
I think the problem is stoic keeps referencing a feat where cain didnt use his force field and galan keeps referencing a feat where he does. 😉
I would think that the FF is artistic rendition, because different artists portray things differently. They couldn't be ignorant to how the Juggernaut's powers work. If you go by that line of reasoning, it sort of seems as if you may be implying that these people are incompetent. I wouldn't fault you for thinking so, but we don't really know for certain, and thus it would fall to personal opinion. I for one have never placed his showing under that amount of scrutiny, and just saw it as artistic rendition. I recall you saying yrs ago, that there is no such thing a true invulnerability, and that every character has a limit. Right here in this very thread, I know that you said that you would never say that Cain was stronger. We don't have to revisit that point. However, i can't see him harming WB Hulk with the strength that he has displayed on panel. I do see WB Hulk being physically more dominant, and swatting him around to the point that if it were in a comic, he'd slap Cain to the moon, and he'd be out of the fight. As for Galactus, I've seen him at variable levels. I don't know how powerful he was, and I'm not certain if you do either. I do know that Galactus has beaten guys well above Thor though. Tyrant off panel is just one of those beings.
Originally posted by StoicEh?
I would think that the FF is artistic rendition, because different artists portray things differently. They couldn't be ignorant to how the Juggernaut's powers work. If you go by that line of reasoning, it sort of seems as if you may be implying that these people are incompetent.
I'm saying that most writers have ignored the force-field all together... Which is 100% factual. No implications are required. 🙂
Originally posted by StoicMaybe. Not sure why that's relevant, though..? I never said Juggernaut had infinite durability or w/e. Just said that Cyttorak's enchantment grants him all the durability he'd need here. 🙂
I recall you saying yrs ago, that there is no such thing a true invulnerability, and that every character has a limit.
Originally posted by StoicYes, and I explained why strength alone is not why I think Juggernaut wins.
Right here in this very thread, I know that you said that you would never say that Cain was stronger.
Originally posted by StoicThis is A FIGHT TO THE DEATH. BFR'ing Juggernaut=/=killing him. So again: this is an irrelevant point.
However, i can't see him harming WB Hulk with the strength that he has displayed on panel. I do see WB Hulk being physically more dominant, and swatting him around to the point that if it were in a comic, he'd slap Cain to the moon, and he'd be out of the fight.
I believe Hulk's energies are more finite than the energy at Juggernaut's disposal. So even if it takes years, Hulk will eventually tire to the point where Juggernaut becomes more powerful. Again: this battle is about the long game.
Originally posted by StoicI told you that I didn't recall the comic stating he was hungry/weak. And again: I didn't use that scene as a means to describe how powerful Thor is. I used it to reference the power of a Godblast... A blast which classic Juggernaut tanked... But there are other, very uber, GB feats we can talk about if you'd like to continue trying to lowball this one. 😉
As for Galactus, I've seen him at variable levels. I don't know how powerful he was, and I'm not certain if you do either. I do know that Galactus has beaten guys well above Thor though. Tyrant off panel is just one of those beings.
It seems like you're caught up in your own monologue at this point, and not really sure where you're focusing the argument. Your whole post pretty much restated my last post... Very strange. 😕
Well for one, I don't think an adamantium 12x12 cage would hold these guys, but that's outside of what this thread was meant to be. This is to the death. I've never seen Juggernaut die, this is true. I wasn't low-balling the G-Blast feat, but I'm also not sure how WB Hulk would stand up to such a blast. It isn't something that can actually be quantified. I was saying that using Galactus as a way of measuring the attack is faulty, because Galactus has different levels of power.
Back to the invisible force field vs the visible force field argument. I still think that it was artist rendition. Some artists include things that others do not. War fought Cain, and he had a visible FF after all. What I can't get around is that you are saying that Cain was more durable when the artist shows a glowing force field vs when we see no glowing force field as a means of saying that he isn't as durable when we don't see one. During the 8th Day arc, I don't recall seeing one when Thor hits Cain with everything he had. Cain looked just as durable there as he did when Thor tried fighting Cain accompanied by Excaliber. The only thing that I noticed that was different, was that Cain during the 8th Day arc was written to be stronger than ever according to on panel citation. I also don't think that using one depiction/showing of the G-Blast should be considered the same as another showing of it. You can think of it as me low balling, or take it for what it is that i am actually saying. One writer expresses things differently than another one does, so it makes the G-Blast very difficult to quantify.
What we can quantify, is Cain's performance against other characters in physical combat. We do know that merged Hulk was able to affect him with a punch to the gut as well. Do you have any proof at all that states that Juggernaut is more durable when we see a FF vs the times that we don't? Is this just personal opinion?
Originally posted by StoicThat was a crimson power aura, not a FF. War had an identical aura, except it was green.
War fought Cain, and he had a visible FF after all.
...Unless you think War had a FF? 😕
Originally posted by StoicI never said that, lol. Again, I think you're getting turned around by your own monologues.
What I can't get around is that you are saying that Cain was more durable when the artist shows a glowing force field vs when we see no glowing force field as a means of saying that he isn't as durable when we don't see one.
Originally posted by StoicYeah, that's pretty much the textbook definition of lowballing. 👆
I also don't think that using one depiction/showing of the G-Blast should be considered the same as another showing of it. You can think of it as me low balling, or take it for what it is that i am actually saying. One writer expresses things differently than another one does, so it makes the G-Blast very difficult to quantify.
Originally posted by StoicAgain, I don't even know where you got this. You're really twisting my words here.
Do you have any proof at all that states that Juggernaut is more durable when we see a FF vs the times that we don't? Is this just personal opinion?
Once more: a select few comics over the years have referenced/depicted Juggernaut with a force-field on panel--the other 95% of his showings have completely ignored the FF. That's why random characters can normally pull his helmet off to facilitate a TP win, etc. If the FF were there, they'd never even be able to touch his helmet, as it is encapsulated by the FF.
The FF is only there when we are TOLD it's there.