Darth Jadus & SoD Maul vs Barsen'thor & Count Dooku

Originally posted by ILS
And it's that mindset that prevents much of the possibly intelligent debate surrounding Maul and Dooku, Tempy-poo. Guys like Beni get so attached to the idea of Dooku > Maul that when faced with the possibility of it not being so, he resorts to desperation tactics like Barlow's contradictory commentary. I'm all for Dooku > Maul if and when the right argument comes along for it.

Regardless I agree with Neph, the novelisation indicates Sidious ramped up the intensity of his assault over the course of that bout, to the point of which Maul couldn't even perceive him. Dooku on the other hand held out against Yoda going full out from the get go.

@Neph
That was part of why he was pissed, the other part was that he was replaced by none other than Dooku himself. In fact the latter part is visibly what enrages him. I don't think he'd be any less pissed if he had to fight Dooku himself. Also, Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan "easily" to quote recent material, I'm not sure why he was overly taxed fighting Yoda. Force users don't flag in stamina that easily. Maul wasn't in perfect shape, either, given that his head had a meeting with a wall shortly before fighting Sheev (though I don't use that as an excuse, Maul's been hitting the gym too long for a little concussion to matter). Yoda never wavered from his position of superiority either, it doesn't preclude the idea that the other side is doing a good job in their own right. I'm pretty sure Sheev wasn't planning on being kicked after Maul forced him into leaping over a cut at his legs. As I mentioned to Temp before, Sheev has this look of "I'm getting tired of this shit" a couple of times near the end (before he TKs Maul the first time and before he disarms him, IIRC). Clearly Maul was presenting something of an issue for him. Taking his prior enjoyment of toying with them away.

Sidious wasn't totally pissing around at the end of his fight with Maul (visually he's responding to Maul's own increased vigor), just like Yoda wasn't trying to totally slaughter Dooku. It was always clear Sidious was going to win, but it ended up being sheer strength and TK that ended the fight.

I view the Shadow Conspiracy duel as what would have happened if Sheev was really going all-out. In that one he ramps up his speed beyond Maul's comfortable responding to and disarms him. In the episode he just overpowers him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
LMAO. Unprovoked mudslinging only paints you as the desperate one Swords. 👆

Regardless I agree with Neph, the novelisation indicates Sidious ramped up the intensity of his assault over the course of that bout, to the point of which Maul couldn't even perceive him. Dooku on the other hand held out against Yoda going full out from the get go.

Proof Yoda was going "full out"? Most versions of the fight describe him as fighting defensively for the first portion of the duel and then developing an offence later on after deflecting everything Dooku had to offer. Kind of like... what happened with Sidious.

Originally posted by ILS
And it's that mindset that prevents much of the possibly intelligent debate surrounding Maul and Dooku, Tempy-poo. Guys like Beni get so attached to the idea of Dooku > Maul that when faced with the possibility of it not being so, he resorts to desperation tactics like Barlow's contradictory commentary. I'm all for Dooku > Maul if and when the right argument comes along for it.

Hey, I'll sing your praises all day long. Your personal crusade with Maul is one of the most impressive ones I've seen, here and elsewhere. I've long believed he deserves to be considered among the big leagues and you've pretty much singlehandedly affirmed that.

But I find Dooku to be the greater apprentice, by however slim a margin. In addition to all the accolades and feats he has to his name, I highly doubt that Sheev would have passed on Maul if he actually thought Maul was a better disciple than the good Count.

As far as Maul's ability to challenge Sidious is concerned, though, I thought we were all in agreement that Maul's not really a viable threat to Sheev in one on one combat. Per the 40th issue of the new Fact Files:

I don't think even ILS ever supported the notion of Maul having any smallest contest with Palpatine 1v1.

Originally posted by JKBart
I don't think even ILS ever supported the notion of Maul having any smallest contest with Palpatine 1v1.

His recent posts in this very thread do indicate that he believes Maul to be something of a challenge, which defies what we know of the duel.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]Hey, I'll sing your praises all day long. Your personal crusade with Maul is one of the most impressive ones I've seen, here and elsewhere. I've long believed he deserves to be considered among the big leagues and you've pretty much singlehandedly affirmed that.

But I find Dooku to be the greater apprentice, by however slim a margin. In addition to all the accolades and feats he has to his name, I highly doubt that Sheev would have passed on Maul if he actually thought Maul was a better disciple than the good Count.

As far as Maul's ability to challenge Sidious is concerned, though, I thought we were all in agreement that Maul's not really a viable threat to Sheev in one on one combat. Per the 40th issue of the new Fact Files:

One is not amused. And again, just before Sheev TK-KO'd Maul the first time, when Maul and Savage pulled some cool synergy move that forced Sheev into a cartwheel.

I think he always had victory in the bag, his far superior Force mastery saw to that, but his facial expression betrays a hint of .. contempt? Effort? Who knows. My point is I don't think Dooku's showing against Yoda is necessarily better. Different in function, maybe, but not better.

Originally posted by ILS
Eh, passive aggressive sideline commentary over the course of several threads does you no favours either, Benjamin. Hence why you're responding emotionally now.

Proof Yoda was going "full out"? Most versions of the fight describe him as fighting defensively for the first portion of the duel and then developing an offence later on after deflecting everything Dooku had to offer. Kind of like... what happened with Sidious.

If that were the case it stands to reason that within the 30 seconds it took to defeat Maul, Yoda would have overpowered Dooku, yet the Count escaped without being disarmed or injured.

But to answer your question, yes Yoda initially deflects Dooku's own attack with little difficulty, but then he hits back with an assault that seems no less full out than Sidious, which Dooku withstands:

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

And as far as strength is concerned, Dooku vs Yoda ends in a bladelock as well:

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.

Yet unlike Palpatine, Yoda is unable to overpower his opponent.

Obviously the fights are not identical, but in general Dooku handles Yoda a lot better, which seems a much stronger case than, well whatever the argument actually is for Maul being above him.

Lets not ignore Palpatine's telekinetic domination of Maul either. I'm not about to claim that its necessarily outside Yoda's ability to do the same to Dooku, but various statements do indicate they were far more evenly matched:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Originally posted by ILS
It was pretty clear Maul wasn't interested in being Sheev's apprentice again, though. Hence why Sidious acknowledged him as a "rival", due to the military foothold and Sith apprentice he had acquired.

Maul was deemed a rival precisely because he wasn't Sheev's apprentice any longer. Prior to "The Lawless," Maul never intrudes upon his former Master's design and deliberately avoids him. When he senses Sidious's arrival, Maul is terrified.

Obviously I don't think Maul was interested in being "genuinely" loyal to Sheev, but then neither was Dooku. I do think that when Maul dropped to one knee and pledged his allegiance to Sheev, it was a genuine effort to avoid the asskicking that was about to commence.

Originally posted by ILS
If Sheev was so sure Dooku was better, why not have Dooku deal with Maul personally the way he allows him to take on the Chosen One and his master simultaneously?

Because he's actively interested in Anakin as a replacement and is testing each of them against the other. He's not actively interested in Maul at all as an apprentice.

Originally posted by ILS
We are in agreement there. As for the quote, it's actually true. He did defeat Maul easily. It wasn't difficult to rip his saber from his hand and throw him around like a wet cloth. I merely dispute that he had to put in some legwork to get to that point.

One is not amused. And again, just before Sheev TK-KO'd Maul the first time, when Maul and Savage pulled some cool synergy move that forced Sheev into a cartwheel.

I think he always had victory in the bag, his far superior Force mastery saw to that, but his facial expression betrays a hint of .. contempt? Effort? Who knows. My point is I don't think Dooku's showing against Yoda is necessarily better. Different in function, maybe, but not better.

I agree that Sheev was irritated when Maul landed that kick. I don't think he was bothered by anything else prior to that point. And I most certainly don't consider Maul's performance against Sheev to be better than Dooku's against Yoda. Maul was ultimately disarmed and beaten like a tattered ragdoll. Obviously Dooku wasn't going to win against Yoda, but his duel didn't end that way.

@Beni

And Maul held strong against Sidious' strikes, as well. As for the blade-lock quote, nothing there indicates Yoda was "unable" to overpower Dooku. He was slowing pressing Dooku's saber back, which is when Dooku runs. It's my belief that if Yoda held little compassion for Dooku and was as brutal and sadistic as Sidious, he would have broken his guard and made a telekinetic plaything of him just as Sidious did Maul. But he didn't, because that's not how Yoda operates.

Running with the idea that Yoda and Sidious are peers, and Dooku can bladelock Yoda without being "overpowered" while Sidious can easily overpower Maul, do explain to me why Maul can deflect strikes from Savage Opress one-handed that have sent Dooku flying through the air? I'm aware you're also a supporter of Savage who doesn't dismiss these accomplishments of his.

In other words, Yoda clearly wasn't in as much of a brutal hurry as Palpatine to end the fight. He deflected everything that was thrown at him in the Force and physically, easily, slowly wore Dooku down and then congratulated in him on a good effort. Sidious afforded Maul none of the same courtesy, which is why I find the comparison to be faulty. And yeno, Maul at least kicked dat old man's torso.

As for the final two quotes, it wouldn't be the first time supplementary sources which attempt to summarize a fight are somewhat inaccurate. The primary source material, the movies/cartoons, hold the actual truth. Otherwise I'd cite The Dark Side Sourcebook claiming Maul "nearly" defeated Sidious as a totally worn-out and injured teenager.

windu beats both

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maul was deemed a rival precisely because he wasn't Sheev's apprentice any longer. Prior to "The Lawless," Maul never intrudes upon his former Master's design and deliberately avoids him. When he senses Sidious's arrival, Maul is terrified.

Obviously I don't think Maul was interested in being "genuinely" loyal to Sheev, but then neither was Dooku. I do think that when Maul dropped to one knee and pledged his allegiance to Sheev, it was a genuine effort to avoid the asskicking that was about to commence.

And yes, Maul bent the knee to avoid having his ass kicked. Not seeing the relevance this has pertaining to Dooku. Dooku willingly kept his knee bent up until his death by Sheev's new apprentice and had never at any point even mounted an attempt to overthrow him.

Because he's actively interested in Anakin as a replacement and is testing each of them against the other. He's not actively interested in Maul at all as an apprentice.

I agree that Sheev was irritated when Maul landed that kick. I don't think he was bothered by anything else prior to that point. And I most certainly don't consider Maul's performance against Sheev to be better than Dooku's against Yoda. Maul was ultimately disarmed and beaten like a tattered ragdoll. Obviously Dooku wasn't going to win against Yoda, but his duel didn't end that way.

Originally posted by JKBart
windu beats both

Originally posted by ILS
He avoided Sidious because he didn't yet have the resources to tackle him. He avoided the Jedi in the same way.

Not exactly. In "Revival," the opening narration explicitly states that Maul and Opress were engaging and killing Jedi during their scourge of the Outer Rim. In contrast, Maul deliberately avoided confrontation with Sheev – personal or distant – until Sheev brought it to him on Mandalore. He clearly didn't want his Master's attention.

Originally posted by ILS
You realize I'm not disagreeing right? Dooku was playing along with being Sidious' apprentice with the intention of killing him. That doesn't imply superiority over Maul because, as we know, Maul was out of the picture before Dooku was being considered as a replacement- Sidious never planned to lose Maul.

The problem being that Sheev kept Dooku around, long after Maul's return was made known to him. And we know for a fact Sheev's MO regarding potential apprentices is "find the strongest." The fact that he didn't even make a play for Maul's allegiance suggests to me that he didn't think Maul himself was a worthy candidate.

Originally posted by ILS
And yes, Maul bent the knee to avoid having his ass kicked. Not seeing the relevance this has pertaining to Dooku. Dooku willingly kept his knee bent up until his death by Sheev's new apprentice and had never at any point even mounted an attempt to overthrow him.

Right, my point being that if Sheev had extended an olive branch and offered Maul Dooku's position in the Sundari throne room, I believe Maul would have snatched it up immediately.

Originally posted by ILS
So what's your argument? That Dooku is better than Maul because Sidious took him on as a placeholder while he presumed Maul dead, and continued to keep him as a placeholder when Maul returned with the intention of decapitating his old master? I'm not seeing the logic. Both Dooku and Maul were irrelevant when Anakin was introduced. The only difference is only one of them was interested in serving Palpatine.

As you said earlier in this very post, Dooku himself wasn't interested in serving Sidious. He simply paid lipservice to him because he was afraid of him. Likewise, when Sheev confronted Maul, Maul dropped to one knee and tried to get Sheev to take him back. Do I think it was out of a genuine loyalty or interest in service? Absolutely not – none of Sheev's apprentices have a genuine loyalty to him. They're just afraid.

Originally posted by ILS
His duel didn't end that way because Dooku was fighting Yoda - a Jedi who still held a lot of emotional attachment to Dooku - opposed to Maul fighting Sidious, Star Wars' greatest sadist. Dooku himself shits his pants at the notion of a Dark-Sided Yoda in Dark Rendezvous IIRC, and for good reason.

I don't dispute Yoda's enduring emotional attachment to the Count. But, for two very different reasons, both Yoda and Sheev restrained themselves when they dueled against their former apprentices. Knowing how effortless Sidious's victory over Maul was, I think Dooku comes out looking better.

Who wins the fight, temp? 🙂

Maul and Dooku are incomparable to Jadus and Barsen'thor, so whoever wins between these two wins it for the team. I honestly can't decide.

Jadus is somewhat comparable to Malgus in terms of Force power (so Yoda/Caedus level somewhere), but his actual combat ability is completely unknown and impossible to judge. They should be somewhat relatable to his Force power, even if the disparty is as large as in the case of, for instance, Kyp Durron, but we don't know. On the other hand, Barsen'thor isn't as impressive with the Force, but is definitely more solid combatant.

Probably would side with Barsen'thor on that account, and if he can defeat Jadus, Maul is meaningless.

Originally posted by ILS
And Maul held strong against Sidious' strikes, as well.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

Granted in TCW manages to get in a hit, but I don't see this as giving justification to ignoring the novelisation, when the extent to which he handled his attacks on screen is ultimately down to the viewer's subjective interpretation.

As for the blade-lock quote, nothing there indicates Yoda was "unable" to overpower Dooku. He was slowing pressing Dooku's saber back, which is when Dooku runs.

Maul was hardly in any kind of position to do that against Palpy.

It's my belief that if Yoda held little compassion for Dooku and was as brutal and sadistic as Sidious, he would have broken his guard and made a telekinetic plaything of him just as Sidious did Maul. But he didn't, because that's not how Yoda operates.

As far as Yoda's compassion is concerned I'd reference Dark Rendezvous:

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Granted Yoda here likely lacks the same lethal intent, but it demonstrates that he has enough self-mastery to prevent his emotions from unbalancing him. In fact, a compassionate application of the Force that doesn't compromise on strength is a key tenet of Jedi lightsaber combat and general offense.

Yoda is also more than capable of disarming Dooku without maiming him, and frankly incapacitating him with the Force without excessive violence or malice.

On the other hand, I concur with Temp, Sidious was not applying lethal force either.

Running with the idea that Yoda and Sidious are peers, and Dooku can bladelock Yoda without being "overpowered" while Sidious can easily overpower Maul, do explain to me why Maul can deflect strikes from Savage Opress one-handed that have sent Dooku flying through the air? I'm aware you're also a supporter of Savage who doesn't dismiss these accomplishments of his.

In other words, Yoda clearly wasn't in as much of a brutal hurry as Palpatine to end the fight. He deflected everything that was thrown at him in the Force and physically, easily, slowly wore Dooku down and then congratulated in him on a good effort. Sidious afforded Maul none of the same courtesy, which is why I find the comparison to be faulty. And yeno, Maul at least kicked dat old man's torso.

Worse that we should assume Yoda was prolonging the fight because what, he was enjoying himself? Or was he was completely ignorant of the magnitude of the task before him? We shouldn't assume anything casual about this fight at all.

I'd also note that according to The Jedi Path, Ataru is a form geared towards ending a fight quickly with "short but devastating bursts" designed to rip through your opponents defense, so this notion that he was "slowly wearing him down" is what's not how Yoda operates.

Indeed to re-quote the text:

"With a sudden burst of sheer power. Master Yoda flew forward [...] Dooku held strong, though [...] or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

It's evident that Yoda was attempting to overwhelming him quickly with the aforementioned strategy, and if Dooku's defense hadn't been sufficient, it would have ended then and there. Like it did with Maul in Shadow Conspiracy.

And the apparent courtesies he extended aside, note that Yoda was screaming something fierce the entire time. He was in fully serious, shit-panting mode as far as I'm concerned.

As for the final two quotes, it wouldn't be the first time supplementary sources which attempt to summarize a fight are somewhat inaccurate. The primary source material, the movies/cartoons, hold the actual truth. Otherwise I'd cite The Dark Side Sourcebook claiming Maul "nearly" defeated Sidious as a totally worn-out and injured teenager.