The Immortal Emperors

DE Sidious and Valkorion run a short Gauntlet. With full rest in between, how far do they get?

1: Yoda
2. Revan, Arcann, and Vaylin
3. Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun
4. Luke Skywalker (FOTJ) and Darth Krayt (Composite)
5. Zonama Sekot
6. The Daughter

Boss: Tilotny

Fights take place in the Eternal Throne Room.

Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Clear

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Clear

😆

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1: Yoda

Win handily given 2 vs 1 odds.

2. Revan, Arcann, and Vaylin

Either likely solos, depending on SOR Revan's power.

3. Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun

Either probably solos.

4. Luke Skywalker (FOTJ) and Darth Krayt (Composite)

They stop here. FOTJ Luke can apparently turn on oneness at will, and Krayt is strong enough to at least contend with either of them.

5. Zonama Sekot
6. The Daughter

Both of these are entities who are implied to be >>>>> Luke.

Darth Krayt does not holds a candle to these guys.

And nobody is capable of defeating the Strike Team of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion! Nobody.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Krayt does not holds a candle to these guys.

His performance against Abeloth and huge power boost post-revival suggest otherwise. I'd put him > Vader IMHO, although I may have overstated it; he's likely still far below Wankatine.

Either way, FotJ Luke can solo this. He has this Force light ability that he seems to be able to activate at will, to a sufficient extent that he can survive protracted confrontations with bodies of Abeloth.

And nobody is capable of defeating the Strike Team of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion! Nobody.

This obviously isn't literally true. The Daughter can canonically f*ck up the entire universe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His performance against Abeloth and huge power boost post-revival suggest otherwise. I'd put him > Vader IMHO, although I may have overstated it; he's likely still far below Wankatine.

Yes, I put Darth Krayt above Darth Vader. However, this doesn't puts him in the ballpark of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion. Not even close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Either way, FotJ Luke can solo this. He has this Force light ability that he seems to be able to activate at will, to a sufficient extent that he can survive protracted confrontations with bodies of Abeloth.

Luke Skywalker cannot defeat Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion together! Don't be naive.

Luke Skywalker defeated an avatar of Abeloth in a specific setting. He cannot do it in each setting.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
This obviously isn't literally true. The Daughter can canonically f*ck up the entire universe.

George Lucas stated that Anakin Skywalker could become twice as powerful as Palpatine in canon. At this level, he would rival the Father in power.

Daughter << Father

Palpatine (DE) >> Palpatine (OT)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His performance against Abeloth implies squat when he had Luke Skywalker on his side. Both were doing the hard work.

Yes, and Krayt was strong enough to contribute noticeably, and it wasn't even suggested that his was inferior. He was strong enough to Force drain both Luke and Abeloth.

Yes, I put Darth Krayt above Darth Vader. However, this doesn't puts him in the ballpark of Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion. Not even close.

It makes him powerful enough to distract them.

Luke Skywalker defeated an avatar of Abeloth in a specific setting. He cannot do it in each setting.

He contends with focused avatars of Abeloth on multiple occasions, which is really all that I need to demonstrate. Abeloth has melted cities by getting angry and performed a variety of feats that put her solidly above Sidious/Valkorian.

Valkorian probably dies via speedblitz in the early stages of the duel, since his entire gig is to rely on a massive Force differential in his favor, which doesn't apply here.

Based on?

That's literally a statement. It's why the Father had to put her and the son on Mortis, a pocket universe.

George Lucas stated that Anakin Skywalker could become twice as powerful then Palpatine in canon. At this level, he would rival the Father in power.

He had twice the potential of Palpatine. What makes you think Palpatine increased his potential?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, and Krayt was strong enough to contribute noticeably, and it wasn't even suggested that his was inferior. He was strong enough to Force drain both Luke and Abeloth.

B/W Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion are also masters of Force Drain powers; Valkorion even more-so then the others.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It makes him powerful enough to distract them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He contends with focused avatars of Abeloth on multiple occasions, which is really all that I need to demonstrate. Abeloth has melted cities by getting angry and performed a variety of feats that put her solidly above Sidious/Valkorian.

Abeloth humiliated Luke in the Jedi Temple in a strictly [1 on 1] phase of the confrontation. Luckily for him, his allies distracted Abeloth.

You need to read this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624023&pagenumber=1

And this one: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

Valkorion have slaughtered entire Councils, downed scores of Starships, telepathically controlled billions of individuals, and is a well-known world-killer. His inferiors have destroyed entire cities and towns.

You cannot win a feats based argument in this case.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorian probably dies via speedblitz in the early stages of the duel, since his entire gig is to rely on a massive Force differential in his favor, which doesn't apply here.

You know squat about Valkorion, it seems. Valkorion can react in split-second moments and have never been blitzed in a confrontation. Some of his inferiors have excellent speed feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's literally a statement. It's why the Father had to put her and the son on Mortis, a pocket universe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He had twice the potential of Palpatine. What makes you think Palpatine increased his potential?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Krayt targeted only Abeloth with his Force Drain. He could not afford to weaken Luke Skywalker under such a dire circumstances.

No, he targeted both, and how does this refute what I was saying?

B/W Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion are also masters of Force Drain powers; Valkorion even more-so then the others.

Yes, I know...I was trying to establish Krayt's usefulness. He can probably give Valkorian a fight, although I'm not sure if he can last long against Palpatine. But Luke can take care of this either way.

Valkorion can attack and affect Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt (simultaneously) with his powers meanwhile Palpatine takes advantage.

When has he ever successfully done this? The best applicable AoE we see out of Valkorian is overwhelming (with prep, on a nexus) a Jedi strike team with no members remotely on Luke or Krayt's level. He can kill a distracted Darth Marr, for example, but he does it individually.

You sure about this?

Abeloth humiliated Luke in the Jedi Temple in a strictly [1 on 1] phase of the confrontation. Luckily for him, his allies distracted Abeloth.

I never said Luke was as powerful as Abeloth, I said that he could contend with concentrated versions of her avatar, which is far beyond anything that Valkorian or Palpatine have done.

Valkorion have slaughtered entire Councils,

With some level of prep, on a nexus, off-screen, using an undisclosed ability he never replicates in any context that could be scrutinized, even when it would have benefited him to do so? Obviously he would use it here.

downed scores of Starships,

So what? Pre-NJO Luke can telekinetically destroy Vader's fortress. Heck, even before DE he muses about being able to tear the hull off capital ships. This isn't particularly impressive.

telepathically controlled billions of individuals,

How is this applicable in a two v two confrontation? Luke resisted the TP of UnuThul, who essentially mind-f*cked half of Jedi order, let alone unwitting and non-Force sensitive populations.

and is a well-known planet-killer.

He's never actually done this in combat.

You cannot win a feats based argument in this case.

Actually, I can. Valkorian has never done anything to give him the raw combative prowess of Luke Skywalker, whether or not he can perform esoteric rituals or not. Your examples are hardly convincing.

TK: Manipulating dorvin bassals (which have pulled moons out of orbit), destroying Vader's fortress, rooting himself so that a supermassive black hole cannot move him, pinning Caedus to his chair. Vitiate's best feat is destroying a temple (on a nexus).

TP: Luke resisted the efforts of UnuThul and Abeloth, so it's implausible to claim that Valkorian can dominate him. His best domination feats are of wide-non-Force sensitive populations; Palpatine could do that too, and couldn't overpower Luke. That he can mind-screw vastly weaker characters (.ie mando-wars Revan/Malak, pre-prime HoT, Tol Braga) means nothing.

Speed: Pre-DE Luke can run long distances at > 60 kph, DE Luke can already move faster than Leia can see, NJO Luke looks like he's fighting with 20-30 lightsabers. And you say Vitiate can't be blitzed...because weaklings haven't managed to do it yet?

Lightsaber prowess: obviously in Luke's favor. Valkorian can block some lightsaber strikes, cool; Luke can cut through vong-resistant armor, and has the shatterpoint ability. He just overwhelms Valkorian's defenses up close.

Tactical acumen: let's be honest here, Valkorian whenever he cannot just overpower his enemies outright is a piss-poor fighter - he gets disarmed by a saber throw from Meetra that could have killed him. While on a nexus, of course.

Face it, Valkorian is dead as soon as he is engaged in close combat, so his only shot is to take out Luke from a distance in the fraction of a second he'll have. He has two ways to do this: TK and lightning. I've already explained how TK won't work, unless if Vitiate > black hole. His best lightning feats are overwhelming characters far weaker than Luke. Even early-DE Luke can absorb AT-AT laser cannons.

You know squat about Valkorion, it seems. Valkorion can react in split-second moments

What is this supposed to mean? I can react in "split-second" moments. Valkorian's reflexes are nowhere near as impressive as those of Luke. Luke has taken on entire Vong armies in melee; when has Valkorian ever demonstrated the quick-draw to lightning him before he closes the distance?

and have never been blitzed in a confrontation.

And FotJ Luke has never lost to an old emperor before, so I guess it can never happen, right? Lol.

His inferiors have excellent speed feats.

His inferiors actually have experience engaging in melee combat. Valkorian can block the slow-ass strikes of his son designed to stall him, sure. He hasn't done anything more.

Its a claim of the Father. Nothing else.

😆 This is an incredibly unconvincing reply and you probably recognize this. You think that the Father, canonically the most powerful Force user in the mythos, was just lying for no reason, or mistaken, and just went through the efforts to exile his own children in a pocket dimension for the heck of it?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Done at 6

Daughter creams em

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
DE Sidious and Valkorion run a short Gauntlet. With full rest in between, how far do they get?

1: Yoda
2. Revan, Arcann, and Vaylin
3. Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun
4. Luke Skywalker (FOTJ) and Darth Krayt (Composite)
5. Zonama Sekot
6. The Daughter

Boss: Tilotny

Fights take place in the Eternal Throne Room.

1: They stomp.
2: They win.
3: They win, I'd say actually more easily than against those in round 2, mainly due to Sadow and Nadd being mostly unknowns.
4: They win.
5: Wut. The planet?
6: Not sure about the full extent of her powers tbh.

Boss: No idea how she'd fare in combat against these two.

Regarding the Luke and krayt debate
I say that krayt gets beaten by sidious while valkorion holds off luke (or the other way around it doesn't matter)
And I'm sorry but I don't think even the great luke skywalker can deal with both of these two

They're not defeating the Daughter but I'm willing to be convinced that they give her a decent fight. 🙂

Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, he targeted both, and how does this refute what I was saying?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yes, I know...I was trying to establish Krayt's usefulness. He can probably give Valkorian a fight, although I'm not sure if he can last long against Palpatine. But Luke can take care of this either way.

Valkorion and Palpatine (DE) do not physically grapple with their opponents (by virtue of utilizing some sort of tentacles); they are like Tanks and Artillery.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that members of Team 2 should avoid a melee-oriented combat strategy and use their overwhelming powers to their advantage instead. Valkorion isn't much fond of melee-oriented combat tactics so he can be expected to adopt the role of heavy artillery while Palpatine engages one (most probably Luke due to history).

In-fact, both Palpatine (DE) and Valkorion can affect both members of Team 1 with their powers simultaneously. Team 1 will be engulfed, trapped, weakened and eventually destroyed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
When has he ever successfully done this?

Want to see more?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The best applicable AoE we see out of Valkorian is overwhelming (with prep, on a nexus) a Jedi strike team with no members remotely on Luke or Krayt's level.

Here:

The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopeda

Your assumptions are baseless.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He can kill a distracted Darth Marr, for example, but he does it individually.

Darth Marr was focused on Valkorion when the latter attacked:

Darth Marr's remarks also confirmed that Valkorion's attack 'destroyed' his body; something that is not animated.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I never said Luke was as powerful as Abeloth, I said that he could contend with concentrated versions of her avatar, which is far beyond anything that Valkorian or Palpatine have done.

Luke just demonstrated a fact that contending with Abeloth was not impossible under certain circumstances. Abeloth was never a dozen times stronger then Luke.

You do know a fried body is still destroyed? It doesn't need to be obliterated. Welcome to figurative language, LeGenD.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
With some level of prep, on a nexus, off-screen, using an undisclosed ability he never replicates in any context that could be scrutinized, even when it would have benefited him to do so? Obviously he would use it here.

I admit that the offensive technique (involved in this confrontation) have not been identified so far but this doesn't imply that Valkorion never used it again.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So what? Pre-NJO Luke can telekinetically destroy Vader's fortress. Heck, even before DE he muses about being able to tear the hull off capital ships. This isn't particularly impressive.

And downing scores of Starships is not an impressive feat? 😂

As for collapsing buildings:

https://i.imgur.com/BytFLox.webm

This was a multi-story structure (15 - 20 stories tall).

And Valkorion >>> Vaylin

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is this applicable in a two v two confrontation? Luke resisted the TP of UnuThul, who essentially mind-f*cked half of Jedi order, let alone unwitting and non-Force sensitive populations.

Luke Skywalker resisted UnuThul's telepathic influence with a strategy; Luke would project thoughts of his earlier history with Raynar Thul into the mind of UnuThul whenever the latter would attempt to intrude into the mind of Luke, dissuading UnuThul in this manner during each attempt. UnuThul eventually gave-up.

However, Luke does not have the aforementioned luxury vis-a-vis Valkorion. Looking into the mind of Valkorion leads to looking into an endless void that have a demoralizing effect on the probing individual instead. And Valkorion is also a superior telepath then UnuThul.

Valkorion have broken legendary warriors in combat situations (including the duo of Revan and Malak) and his showings on planet Ziost trump all other telepathic showings in the mythos in scale and scope.

On Ziost, Valkorion telepathically influenced countless individuals across the planet including many battle-hardened Republic forces, Imperial forces, Jedi and Sith. Here is a glimpse:

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He's never actually done this in combat.

It won't be difficult for Valkorion to use Force Drain powers during a (so-called) combat situation. Lesser Force-users have utilized Force Drain powers in combat situations successfully. Don't be naive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Actually, I can. Valkorian has never done anything to give him the raw combative prowess of Luke Skywalker, whether or not he can perform esoteric rituals or not. Your examples are hardly convincing.

Valkorion (easily) defeated a powerful Sith Lord at the age of 10, an entire rebellious Dark Council from afar, a Strike Team of powerful Jedi, and legendary warriors such as Revan, Darth Marr, Arcann and the Outlander on separate occasions.

- Revan doesn't needs an introduction or does he?
- Darth Marr is among the most powerful Sith with skills second to none and history of soundly defeating other powerful Sith, several warriors at a time, and even routing entire armies of the Republic during the war.
- Arcann was so powerful that no Jedi or Sith could hope to defeat him in a confrontation
- Hero of Tython is officially the Outlander - a veteran of Great Galactic War and the most powerful Jedi of his era.

---

Luke defeated Darth Vader, Lumiya, UnuThul and Darth Caedus on separate occasions. However, let's have a look at his failures:

- Luke outdueled Palpatine in a confrontation but could not stop the latter without assistance from his allies.
- Luke lost to the duo of Exar Kun (a weakened Force ghost during this time) and Kyp Durron (an apprentice during this time); badly I may add.
- Luke could not contend with Lord Nyax on his own
- Luke suffered severe injuries during his confrontation with Darth Caedus

There are other situations in which lesser Force-users have successfully affected Luke with their powers.

I may also add that Luke's skills with a Lightsaber give him advantage over others in a melee-oriented engagement. Ever seen Luke utterly dominating or one-shotting powerful opponents with just his Force powers?

So tell me! How Luke stands apart from Valkorion in the aspect of combat? He doesn't. In-fact, Luke doesn't matches the sheer effectiveness of Valkorion in the domain of Force powers during combat situations.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TK: Manipulating dorvin bassals (which have pulled moons out of orbit),

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

Taken from Star Wars: Dark Tide: Onslaught

2. The above is reinforced by the fact that Kyp Durron also matched Luke's aforementioned feat. And Kyp Durron is on par with Darth Vader in raw power.

3. Dovin Basal vary in size and capabilities. The moon-pulling Dovin Basals are huge and most powerful among them. However, nobody ever attempted to manipulate this kind of Dovin Basal.

4. Keeping in mind the fact that Dovin Basals cannot offer much against Force powers, it wouldn't surprise me if even the most powerful among them were also susceptible to manipulation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
destroying Vader's fortress,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
rooting himself so that a supermassive black hole cannot move him,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
pinning Caedus to his chair.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate's best feat is destroying a temple (on a nexus).

Do keep in mind that Valkorion managed to collapse a large segment of the Dark Temple during his most compromised condition; after suffering a major setback from the disruption of his most ambitious ritual and destruction of his Voice on top of it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
TP: Luke resisted the efforts of UnuThul and Abeloth, so it's implausible to claim that Valkorian can dominate him. His best domination feats are of wide-non-Force sensitive populations; Palpatine could do that too, and couldn't overpower Luke. That he can mind-screw vastly weaker characters (.ie mando-wars Revan/Malak, pre-prime HoT, Tol Braga) means nothing.

Valkorion is unparalleled in the domain of telepathic powers FYI. Even if we assume that Valkorion cannot outright break Luke Skywalker on a moment's notice, he [does] have the capability to disorient the Jedi Master and take advantage.

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Speed: Pre-DE Luke can run long distances at > 60 kph, DE Luke can already move faster than Leia can see, NJO Luke looks like he's fighting with 20-30 lightsabers. And you say Vitiate can't be blitzed...because weaklings haven't managed to do it yet?

- Satele Shan is officially stated to be unbelievably fast; another Force-user found it difficult to cope with her speed. Satele Shan have blitzed and/or killed opponents in split-second moments, mind you. Yet, she was hesitate to confront Valkorion.

- Darth Marr could move so fast that another powerful Force-user could not track his movements. Here:

Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. "I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it."

"I see no reason to."

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

"You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power

- Lord Scourge, years before his prime, was stated to move at blinding speeds. During his prime, he met his match in Hero of Tython. The latter also have history of blitzing two opponents at a time.

- Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Lord Scourge and Hero of Tython - all have history of dodging/evading attacks at point-blank range during combat situations.

- Aryn Leener - who fought Darth Malgus to a standstill for a while - also have some of the best speed feats in the mythos.

And yet, none of the above were capable of blitzing Valkorion. Don't be naive.

Valkorion can move, react and attack much faster then you imagine or tend to believe. I will cover this issue in a blog soon.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lightsaber prowess: obviously in Luke's favor. Valkorian can block some lightsaber strikes, cool; Luke can cut through vong-resistant armor, and has the shatterpoint ability. He just overwhelms Valkorian's defenses up close.

Valkorion can block/repel lightsaber strikes at point-blank range with barely an effort. Only The Ones have comparable showings in this regard.

How is cutting through the body armor and having shatterpoint ability beneficial in this case? A lightsaber can cut through most objects like a knife through a butter (no need for a forceful blow in most cases).

Even a supposedly Lightsaber-resistant body armor cannot offer complete protection against a lightsaber; it can be eventually cut through and also have weak points that can be exploited.

Shatterpoint talent is useful in some situations but not all! Its not a magic. FYI: Satele Shan and Lord Scourge also developed shatterpoint abilities at some point but they weren't unstoppable due to it.

B/W Arcann is physically very strong. He have disarmed powerful Sith by just grabbing their wrists.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What is this supposed to mean? I can react in "split-second" moments. Valkorian's reflexes are nowhere near as impressive as those of Luke. Luke has taken on entire Vong armies in melee; when has Valkorian ever demonstrated the quick-draw to lightning him before he closes the distance?

https://i.imgur.com/NZzuotc.webm

"Accept my help or watch her die. Choose quickly: time have not stopped." (Valkorion during the aforementioned moment)

By the time Valkorion responded, that Knight of Zakuul was still in motion and Valkorion killed him before he could land a blow at Lana Beniko.

As I pointed out earlier, Valkorion is much faster then you can imagine or tend to believe.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And FotJ Luke has never lost to an old emperor before, so I guess it can never happen, right? Lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
His inferiors actually have experience engaging in melee combat. Valkorian can block the slow-ass strikes of his son designed to stall him, sure. He hasn't done anything more.

Arcann's blows were animated to look slow (for storytelling purpose only) because we (as normal humans) won't be able to keep track of his movements in real-time. Well-trained Force-users tend to move at blinding speeds in general and a normal human cannot maintain track of their movements. I thought this was common knowledge?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
😆 This is an incredibly unconvincing reply and you probably recognize this. You think that the Father, canonically the most powerful Force user in the mythos, was just lying for no reason, or mistaken, and just went through the efforts to exile his own children in a pocket dimension for the heck of it?