The Immortal Emperors

You've given me lots of instances where Valkorian takes on groups of Force users, none of whom are as powerful as Skywalker. That's great, but it hardly suggests that he can overwhelm Luke in particular. There are essentially two methodologies that we can use to compare the two:

Powerscaling - in this case Valky doesn't stand a chance, since he's < TPM Sidious by canon. While Luke > Sidious in actualized power has never been confirmed, it seems highly probabe given that a) he was already powerful enough that Palpatine acknowledged he could give him (pre-young body) a good fight in DE b) he just needed some unlocked potential from Leia to defeat Wankatine, and 30 years of training probably outweighs that and c) we do know that full potential Luke > Sidious, and from precedent he's probably nearing that potential by age 60.

Feats - the supermassive black hole feat is really the greatest in all of Star Wars.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
HAHAHAHAH what?

It's a reasonable claim, given technological progression and the sheer scale of the armies involved. The Clone Wars era galaxy is the most combatively formidable up to its time in galactic history.

Originally posted by Trocity
Did Legend just try to lowball dovin basal manipulation?

It's not a showing that is exclusive to Luke Skywalker when we have proof that even a Darth Vader level Force-user (i.e. Kyp Durron) could pull it off.

End of case.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao, still haven't had this brain tumour removed yet I see.

Did Abeloth manage to ruin the galaxy with her powers (or even close) during the time-span of her freedom?

No character is powerful enough to destroy the Universe itself; it is too vast and huge. I'd say that no character can one-shot even an entire solar system with strictly personal abilities; forget the galaxy or larger cosmic formations.

The maximum we have is a statement that the The Ones might have ruined the galaxy with their powers. This would be a consequence of their virtually eternal feuds and it might have taken a thousand years or perhaps much more, based on the showings of Abeloth (a being of comparable power).

Originally posted by ares834
The Force seems to have already been out of balance prior to TPM. It just continues to become less balanced as the war goes on until the Jedi are extinct and Palpatine reigns supreme.

Yes, the balance of the Cosmic Force had titled towards the Dark Side (prior) to the events of PT.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I do find it amusing that you lecture me on using "hyperbole" and trusting the Father's subjective word, and then base 90% of your posts on accolades about how Valkorian is "incredibly powerful" (as if that's somehow a quantifiable or meaningful piece of evidence) and can make beings of "pure dark side energy" (which obviously gives us lots of data points with which to compare him with Luke). 🙄

An accolade (typically) indicates the position of a character vis-à-vis his surroundings.

For example: Luke Skywalker was believed to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy by his peers.

An hyperbole represents a statement that tends to hype an action or capability of a character to make storytelling interesting (for the readers) but these statements are not true in literal sense and/or should not be taken at face value.

For example: Luke Skywalker rooted himself into the heart of the Force to make him-self immovable to an extent that even a supermassive blackhole could not affect him at that moment.

However, we know that Luke struggled to influence an artificial micro blackhole (that is virtually nothing in comparison to the power of a true cosmic blackhole) and if he could really root himself into the heart of Force at will then he would have literally pwned Abeloth and everybody else in a confrontation. However, Luke struggled against powerful opponents as much as anybody else.

You should learn to distinguish between what constitutes as pure hype and what constitutes as being absolutely true or close. 🙂

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Regardless, Luke and Krayt were powerful enough to not be ragdolled or oneshotted by her, .ie they were closer in power to her than Revan was to Vitiate.

Prior to her confrontation with the duo of Luke and Darth Krayt in the realm of Beyond the Shadows, she was singlehandedly dominating the trio of Luke, Jaina Solo and Corran Horn inside the Jedi Temple. She would have killed Luke in this confrontation and then taken care of the rest but she wasted this opportunity (again). It's all PIS unfortunately.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
How is Palpatine supposed to prevent both of them from reaching Valkorian at the same time? "Tanking" won't work here.

Of-course, tanking won't work in this case; for Luke and Darth Krayt.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's one thing to argue that the Emperors outclass Luke and Krayt in Force abilities. It's another thing to claim that they outclass the duo by such a margin that they can win this fight in the seconds it takes for the two to close the gap on them and force a melee. They don't have the speed feats to avoid Luke, so their only hope is to basically one-shot him.

Luke does not outclass any member of Team 2 in speed; the sooner you understand this fact, the better.

A single bolt of Force Lightning from the Sith Emperor (a weaker incarnation of Valkorion) packed sufficient kinetic-energy to halt Revan's advance. I don't see the possibility of Luke and Darth Krayt managing to advance while being subjected to a proper Force Lightning Storm or Force Maelstrom from Valkorion; its kinetic-energy would be sufficient to halt their advance and its intensity and temperature will cause severe pain and burns (just like Revan experienced). Now Palpatine is also in the picture and he can (and will) support Valkorion with his powers during the attack. Heck, Palpatine (DE) may get the opportunity to conjure a Force Storm during the moment.

As I pointed out earlier, Luke and Darth Krayt have no hope in this confrontation; at all.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
[list]
[*]Telepathy: Vitiate + the dread masters could not break Revan in 300 years. Somehow I doubt that Valkorian alone is breaking him in 3 seconds.
[*]Telekinesis: dovin basal manipulation, Vader's fortress and supermassive black hole >>>
[*]Lightning: basically the only option for Valkorian. But it is implied that not even the Reborn Emperor could overwhelm the amped DE Luke with it, and you typically need a significant disparity in ability to overwhelm someone w/a lightsaber using lightning (think: Sidious vs. Windu, Dooku vs Obi Wan), and that likely does not apply here. Besides, what is Valky's greatest lightning feat? Shaking some capital ships? ooohhhh...that's something pre-NJO Luke could do with raw telekinesis.
[/list]

2. Valkorion could destroy Darth Vader's fortress and much more; collapsing a building is not a sound argument to use against Valkorion when Valkorion's inferiors have comparable showings.

Supermassive blackhole based point is entirely hyperbole (see my explanation above).

3. You've got to be killing me? Valkorion virtually embodies the Dark Side and is a master of many (offensive and defensive) techniques/Force powers. Kindly check my Valkorion Respect Thread.

Where is it is implied that Luke could not be overwhelmed by Force Lightning?

Exar Kun overwhelmed Luke with a powerful expression of Force Lightning. Years later, Luke chose to evade contact with Darth Krayt's Force Lightning rather then counter it with bear hands.

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

Taken from The Ultimate Visual Guide

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Or what if Luke tosses his lightsaber at Valkorian and uses the distraction to get personal and shatter his spine with shatterpoint? Or what if he folds-space his lightsaber into his skull? There are all sorts of tactical advantages that come with being able to engage at multiple combat ranges, rather than just trying to Force-lightning everyone.

Valkorion have developed countermeasures against weapons like Lightsaber; he can repel a Lightsaber strike so a Lightsaber-throw based attack won't lead to a desirable outcome.

Fold-space is an interesting option but Valkorion can teleport. Even if I give your argument the benefit of doubt that Luke somehow catches Valkorion off-guard with the Fold-space technique, you are forgetting that Valkorion doesn't needs a physical vessel to manifest and affect the external surroundings; he will catch Luke off-guard right after.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And suspiciously never replicates that ability when encountered without prep in non-nexuses.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Regardless, I'm not really impressed at his ability to kill 10 no-name fodder sith.

They were not identified (with the exception of Darth Lokess) because they are not deemed important for advancing the story of Valkorion. The event is just an example of what becomes of a Dark Council when it attempts to assassinate Valkorion.

Nonetheless, defeating an entire Dark Council is an arguably unparalleled showing in a combat situation; when Revan came to know about Valkorion's purge, he found it difficult to digest. Some time earlier, Revan pwned a Dark Council member in a 1 on 1 scenario but he felt that he could not handle an entire Dark Council; not even close.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So? Even Dark Empire Luke can absorb AT-AT laser cannons.

Now show me an example of Luke palming or repelling a Lightsaber strike with bear hands.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's a distinction between being able to influence large groups of unwitting non-force sensitives, and applying that against a Jedi grandmaster in the middle of combat.

1. It is difficult to telepathically influence even a single strong-willed individual irrespective of Force-sensitivity of the individual.

Example 1: Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn could not telepathically influence Watto.

Example 2: It took 3 Jedi Masters (Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker among them) to break Cad Bane with their telepathic abilities with joint effort.

Watto and Cad Bane weren't Force-sensitive or were they?

In comparison:

Valkorion telepathically influenced countless individuals (including many battle-hardened soldiers of the Republic and the Empire, Sith and Jedi) on planet Ziost; a solid evidence of his tremendous power and command of telepathic powers on the whole. Below is just one revelation:

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet's Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

Valkorion telepathically subjugated even scores of Jedi Masters on planet Ziost (Master Surro, Master Onok and Master Landai 'among' them).

Valkorion considered Master Surro an asset in particular because she was among the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and withstood everything in her path while others would fall. Master Surro even managed to break free from Valkorion's telepathic influence for a while (by virtue of her great strength in the Force) but Valkorion would not give-up on her and repossessed her.

I do not assert that telepathic powers are infallible but it is foolish to dismiss the threat of Valkorion's formidable command of telepathic powers and his potential to break even the strongest Jedi.

Even if you believe that Valkorion needs like 10 seconds to break a Jedi as powerful as Luke, and Luke can do a lot in the span of 10 seconds, you are overlooking the bigger picture here; Valkorion can telepathically assault Luke with a thought and disorient the Jedi Master enough to reduce his effectiveness in a combat situation and take advantage of this development.

I shall also remind you that Valkorion can multi-task with his powers. It is possible for Valkorion to assault Luke with his telepathic abilities (and) some other power at the same time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You know how everybody mocks Revan fanboys with the "heart of the Force" quote? You're like that, except you aren't trying to be satirical. Doesn't it occur to you that "being of pure Dark Side energy" is a meaningless quote that doesn't hold any analytical value?

Doubtlessly you respond to this by pointing out that this must mean Valkorian is "incredibly powerful", and make me fall over in laughter at your inability to progress beyond vague adjectives like "incredibly" and "very".

Given enough intellect, knowledge, fortitude and power, Sith alchemy can be used to achieve the seemingly impossible, such as transforming flesh and bone to form vicious Sithspawn such as the imposing Massassi and the unstoppable Terentatek. But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

Taken from Codex Entry titled "Monolith."

This codex entry is carrying a message: if Monolith (a being of pure Dark Side energy) is nearly impossible to kill, imagine what would it take to stop Valkorion himself. We have a quantifiable revelation here.

Don't mistake me for one of those Revan fanboys. I tend to cite examples that are meaningful for a discussion at hand.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Dovan basils have tugged moons, which actually takes a lot more energy than razing a planetary surface.

1. Not every Dovin Basal can do that! Don't try to generalize them. In addition, those select-few Dovin Basals would disturb the orbit of a moon and leave the rest to the gravitational forces.

2. Dovin Basals certainly have impressive capabilities but they are also vulnerable to Force powers; a weakness that Jedi managed to exploit.

3. Destroying an entire world is one of the most challenging tasks for a single Force-user. To give you an idea, it took 8000 Sith to pull-off a Ziost-like outcome. This is close to the strength of an entire Jedi Order in an era.

Nah, he absorbed shots first.

?

He's deflecting them with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
?

He's deflecting them with his lightsaber.

...Are we looking at the same panel? The one from Dark Empire? The one where the shots are striking against a Force field by his left shoulder while his lightsaber is off to his right?

The narration is talking about his lightsaber skills though and theres a lightsaber sound effect. And that "force field" is just the stupid way Dark Empire draws force users like all the time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The black hole at the center of the galaxy quote isn't figurative. The author is clearly trying to convey the idea that Luke makes himself literally immovable - if he were going for some fluffy hyperbole, he wouldn't have gone through several progressive comparisons:

But this time Luke was ready, he placed his own hand in front of Raynar's, rooted himself in the heart of the force. And when he did that he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him; not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's 16 ion engines, not the blackhole at the center of the galaxy itself. Luke stood that way waiting, fully aware that the remaining bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions.

So he writes "very essence of the immovable object", but figures most people would take this as a figurative statement - so he makes this clear by invoking progressively stronger forces and dismissing their ability to move him. The literalness seems pretty clear to me. (Use inversion: what would the author have written if he wanted to make the literal point? Pretty much exactly what he did. You don't put that much effort into making hyperbole seem real.)

And the Outlander could unite a thousand Stars with a weapon that was an extension of his will.

--

No.

Luke struggled to influence an artificial micro blackhole. Yet, he had the power to resist a supermassive blackhole? Doesn't makes sense at all.

Normal blackholes restricted the movement of Abeloth in the Maw Cluster and she was more powerful then Luke.

A supermassive blackhole is much more powerful then a normal blackhole. And a normal blackhole is much more powerful then Vong based manifestations. A normal blackhole can restrict the movements of a being such as Abeloth and/or destroy her. A normal blackhole could also destroy a superweapon such as Sun Crusher that endured the extreme environment of a gas giant planet.

Therefore, that revelation is hyperbole. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The narration is talking about his lightsaber skills though and theres a lightsaber sound effect. And that "force field" is just the stupid way Dark Empire draws force users like all the time.

The narration discusses his Force powers and skill and then his lightsaber prowess... which is why, in the very next scan, he deflects the bolts with his lightsaber without narration.

He absorbs them first {demonstration of his powers and skill} then deflects the rest with his lightsaber {demonstration of his skill with the laser sword}.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]Right...

And the Outlander could unite a thousand Stars with a weapon that was an extension of his will.

I love how you completely ignore all of the analysis you just quoted and instead give the same cookie cutter response it was preemptively refuting.

--

No.

Luke struggled to influence an artificial micro blackhole. Yet, he had the power to resist a supermassive blackhole? Doesn't makes sense at all.

Normal blackholes restricted the movement of Abeloth in the Maw Cluster and she was more powerful then Luke.

A supermassive blackhole is much more powerful then a normal blackhole. And a normal blackhole is much more powerful then Vong based manifestations.

No.

I can support Neph's mother on my body without any difficulty. Yet, I try to lift her a few meters, and it tires me. How could this be? Clearly Neph having a mom is mere hyperbole.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Given enough intellect, knowledge, fortitude and power, Sith alchemy can be used to achieve the seemingly impossible, such as transforming flesh and bone to form vicious Sithspawn such as the imposing Massassi and the unstoppable Terentatek. But Monoliths are something beyond Sithspawn: they are everlasting monstrosities built not on a foundation of living tissue but of dark side energy itself. Enduring and merciless and quite possibly unkillable, Monoliths plainly illustrate the immeasurable power of their creator and are best avoided at all costs.

Taken from Codex Entry titled "Monolith."

This codex entry is carrying a message: if Monolith (a being of pure Dark Side energy) is nearly impossible to kill, imagine what would it take to stop Valkorion himself. We have a quantifiable revelation here.

Don't mistake me for one of those Revan fanboys. I tend to cite examples that are meaningful for a discussion at hand. [/B]

😐 It's almost like just did that thing in order to prove to people that you didn't do it...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The narration discusses his Force powers and skill and then his lightsaber prowess... which is why, in the very next scan, he deflects the bolts with his lightsaber without narration.

He absorbs them first {demonstration of his powers and skill} then deflects the rest with his lightsaber {demonstration of his skill with the laser sword}.

That's idiotic. Why not just move the narration over so they'd match up? That the narration is talking about his lightsaber skills in the panel when he deflects them indicates he did it with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's idiotic. Why not just move the narration over so they'd match up? That the narration is talking about his lightsaber skills in the panel when he deflects them indicates he did it with his lightsaber.

Not really lol.

Notice the lack of bluish energy surrounding Luke when he actually, y'know, deflects the bolts with his lightsaber. Which is probably why the narration went to all that trouble to mention both his Force powers and lightsaber prowess: to actually demonstrate both.

Behold, I give you reason.

Good luck actually trying to make this case lmao.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I love how you completely ignore all of the analysis you just quoted and instead give the same cookie cutter response it was preemptively refuting.

I can support Neph's mother on my body without any difficulty. Yet, I try to lift her a few meters, and it tires me. How could this be? Clearly Neph having a mom is mere hyperbole.

Wait! Did Luke found himself in a position that he had to resist the pull of a supermassive blackhole? Like ever? No.

Sorry, my friend. I don't take hyperboles seriously.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Outlander can unite a thousand Stars! Obviously.

That's - you literally just repeated the exact same argument that I was addressing, and ignored all the specific points that I made to differentiate the two statements...did you even recognize that they were there?

I give up. If you finally manage to acquire the reading comprehension skills of a twelve year old, please feel free to actually respond to the sentences that are being constructed for you. Let me know if you do so.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really lol.

Notice the lack of bluish energy surrounding Luke when he actually, y'know, deflects the bolts with his lightsaber. Which is probably why the narration went to all that trouble to mention both his Force powers and lightsaber prowess: to actually demonstrate both.

Behold, I give you reason.

Good luck actually trying to make this case lmao.

That's not a reason lol. He can demonstrate both while the narration is actually on the right panels. That the DE illustrations are shitty and confusing changes nothing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You've given me lots of instances where Valkorian takes on groups of Force users, none of whom are as powerful as Skywalker.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's great, but it hardly suggests that he can overwhelm Luke in particular.

I'd say that Darth Nihilus can also kill Luke Skywalker; he have powers and feats to indicate as much.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There are essentially two methodologies that we can use to compare the two:

Powerscaling - in this case Valky doesn't stand a chance, since he's < TPM Sidious by canon. While Luke > Sidious in actualized power has never been confirmed, it seems highly probabe given that a) he was already powerful enough that Palpatine acknowledged he could give him (pre-young body) a good fight in DE b) he just needed some unlocked potential from Leia to defeat Wankatine, and 30 years of training probably outweighs that and c) we do know that full potential Luke > Sidious, and from precedent he's probably nearing that potential by age 60.

No source asserts that Palpatine was more powerful then Valkorion. There is only one source in which Vitiate's (early) history was briefly mentioned and Palpatine was stated to be "might be" the most powerful Sith in it.

If Vitiate's (early) history was sufficient to make an author doubt Palpatine's superiority, imagine the shit-storm that Ziost and Knights of the Fallen Empire based story-arcs of Vitiate would cause among the authors while documenting them.

Most importantly; Valkorion is not a Sith in strict terms; he have become more then a Sith and evolved into an seemingly immortal entity. The SWTOR content have been portraying his transformation and the latest Knights of the Fallen Empire expansion clearly distinguishes Valkorion from Sith. I don't think that any sourcebook cover these newer developments.

Moreover, Valkorion does not exists in canon. So Palpatine might be the most powerful Sith in galactic history in canon; his position doesn't influences the position of Valkorion.

Regarding Luke:

Luke certainly became more powerful after the events of Dark Empire but his growth in power is subject to interpretation. We observe Luke not having an answer for threats like Exar Kun and Lord Nyax (after) the events of Dark Empire. Luke also struggled to defeat Darth Caedus.

I am sorry but Luke isn't some unstoppable thing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Feats - the supermassive black hole feat is really the greatest in all of Star Wars.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

That's - you literally just repeated the exact same argument that I was addressing, and ignored all the specific points that I made to differentiate the two statements...did you even recognize that they were there?

I give up. If you finally manage to acquire the reading comprehension skills of a twelve year old, please feel free to actually respond to the sentences that are being constructed for you. Let me know if you do so.

You should give up on taking hyperboles seriously. Unfortunately, you are not interested in that.