Originally posted by SelenialTold you this thread had discussion value. 🙂
Well, since he's talking strictly stamina, it basically is. I don't know who the **** you think Vader is, but he's not exactly going to let Marek take a quick five to grab a glass of water and breathe. Nor is he the kind of person to go easy on Marek, you train by being beaten, Vader would push him to his limits for the full duration.Furthermore, I don't see why everyone's placing Marek below Ahsoka in blade work. This guy's mastered three seperate forms of Lightsaber combat by this point, Soresu being one of them. His defense was good enough to hold back a fully trained Juyo master, which is supposedly the hardest form to defend against and requiring many other forms mastered to even learn... His fights with Ti and Paratus should be taken into account too. All he did was refine his force techniques and his adaptability, so it's not like he improved so dramatically that his fights with them are out of early-Galen's reach.
Ahsoka challenging Vader doesn't automatically place her above him 😬
Y'all mother****ers using Kota vs Vader as an example, forgetting that he was blind and had fallen kilometres off a space station, hardly in his prime.
I don't see how Ahsoka's making it through Galen's defences before being shat on in the force...
Originally posted by SyndicateBecause if he didn't he would have been in much more of a hurry to remove it.
And how would Vader know that?
He could have been bluffing and even if not he's likely going to want to get there before Maul or somebody with knowledge on how the weapon works actually gets up there to use it.Bluffing? What do you mean?
And right, another reason to put all his powers into defeating Ahsoka. Not a reason to actually be concentrating on the temple exterior at the expense of his opponent.
If there's a car crash on the side of the road it serves no purpose to slow down and see what happened but we do anyways. It's a subconscious action.Uh-huh. I think you're not taking into account that Vader is a Dark Lord of the Sith capable of tapping in to a mystical and ominipresent energy field. 😬I think you're not taking into account that these characters can be distracted just like any other.
He's perfectly capable of remaining aware of his surroundings (which is all he need be) while applying all his skills in combat with Ahsoka. And it would be a rookiee error he'd never commit to allow himself to be distracted (which would serve no purpose) when in combat with a lethal opponent - one that can be won in nanoseconds and lost by a fractional misstep.
Originally posted by SyndicateNope, I'm talking about what happened after:
Dun Moch? What are you talking about? The only think that comes close to what you're saying is Galen saying Vader didn't have a father and Vader temporarily gaining the advantage BECAUSE of that. It worked in Vader's favour just like Dooku's backfired Dun Moch worked in Anakin's.
Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .Marek understood that he couldn't unbalance Vader by pissing him off, but by exposing the weak, fragile character Vader hid behind his mask, and it worked.Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.
"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."
"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.
He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.
"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
Also there's nothing stating that the Clone is more powerful then the original and btw the clone was at the time was unaware of how powerful Vader by the end of TFUII was just like Galen was unaware of how powerful Vader was by the end of TFU.Ah I was mistaken, what the quote actually says is that the clones inherited Marek's skill and Force ability.
Regardless Vader still capably defeated him.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because if he didn't he would have been in much more of a hurry to remove it.Bluffing? What do you mean?And right, another reason to put all his powers into defeating Ahsoka. Not a reason to actually be concentrating on the temple exterior at the expense of his opponent.Uh-huh. I think you're not taking into account that Vader is a Dark Lord of the Sith capable of tapping in to a mystical and ominipresent energy field. 😬
He's perfectly capable of remaining aware of his surroundings (which is all he need be) while applying all his skills in combat with Ahsoka. And it would be a rookiee error he'd never commit to allow himself to be distracted (which would serve no purpose) when in combat with a lethal opponent - one that can be won in nanoseconds and lost by a fractional misstep.
He was in a hurry to remove it. That's my point.
That he thought Ezra knew how to use the weapon. Also I'm saying that he's not going to have his full attention on Ahsoka as he's going to be distracted by having to make sure no one like Maul or Kanan are making their way towards Ezra to help him use the weapon.
And how would that change his basic human nature in this regard?
He likely didn't NEED to have his full attention on the fight given Ahsoka's inferiority. Aside from that though if he's projecting his senses somewhere else his full attention is not going to be on the fight thus he's not fighting at full capacity.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, I'm talking about what happened after:Marek understood that he couldn't unbalance Vader by pissing him off, but by exposing the weak, fragile character Vader hid behind his mask, and it worked.Ah I was mistaken, what the quote actually says is that the clones inherited Marek's skill and Force ability.Regardless Vader still capably defeated him.
Holy shit. xD Jeezus dude. I haven't seen someone attempt to reach that far since... Well, ever. Vader shows absolutely no sign of being affected by Galen's words. It's simply Galen coming to the realization that using the Dark Side for revenge would leave him worse off then before. Vader's energy is flagging by that point in the fight and so he succumbs to Galen's bladework.
Actually that's in doubt once I took a second look at the fight. The clone muses on needing to get into an indefensible position likely to get Vader to lower his guard which is exactly what happens. I think it highly likely the clone orchestrated those events so that he could get into a position where he could defeat Vader.
Been a busy few days so I missed this. Cba to debate the topic at large but I'll address this much.
Originally posted by SyndicateLegit thread. 🙂
Before we continue I'd like you to tell me honestly if you really thought that or if this was a troll thread directed at me.
Originally posted by SyndicateExcept he wasn't, in fact he seems much more interested in getting information from Ahsoka and Ezra.
He was in a hurry to remove it. That's my point.
That he thought Ezra knew how to use the weapon.No he didn't, he explicitly expresses disbelief it was the case when he's about to strike him down. The fact that he was prepared to kill him pretty much proving he thought the boy was useless.
Also I'm saying that he's not going to have his full attention on Ahsoka as he's going to be distracted by having to make sure no one like Maul or Kanan are making their way towards Ezra to help him use the weapon.And I'm saying that again as a Dark Lord of the Sith capable of tapping in to a mystical and omnipresent energy field all he'd need to be is aware of his surroundings (which is an important thing to do while in lightsaber combat as is) and that he doesn't need to project anywhere when his natural senses should easily encompass the span of several hundred meters.And how would that change his basic human nature in this regard?
He likely didn't NEED to have his full attention on the fight given Ahsoka's inferiority. Aside from that though if he's projecting his senses somewhere else his full attention is not going to be on the fight thus he's not fighting at full capacity.
So no, I'm failing to see how to be fully effective in lightsaber combat, Vader has to employ tunnel vision.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Been a busy few days so I missed this. Cba to debate the topic at large but I'll address this much.Legit thread. 🙂 Except he wasn't, in fact he seems much more interested in getting information from Ahsoka and Ezra.No he didn't, he explicitly expresses disbelief it was the case when he's about to strike him down. The fact that he was prepared to kill him pretty much proving he thought the boy was useless.And I'm saying that again as a Dark Lord of the Sith capable of tapping in to a mystical and omnipresent energy field all he'd need to be is aware of his surroundings (which is an important thing to do while in lightsaber combat as is) and that he doesn't need to project anywhere when his natural senses should easily encompass the span of several hundred meters.So no, I'm failing to see how to be fully effective in lightsaber combat, Vader has to employ tunnel vision.
I think you're lying to be completely honest.
When he faced Ezra he only bothered talking to him because he was confident in his ability to dispatch Ezra and take the holocron. Like many Sith including Maul Vader suffers from overconfidence.
*Shrug* Say he didn't. As I mentioned he's still not going to want to wait for Maul or someone else who might have knowledge on how to use it to make their way up to Ezra.
Evidence? When have we been shown that Vader's standard senses are projected hundreds of meters in canon?
Because he's still going to have to be monitoring things occurring outside of the fight.
Originally posted by SelenialSyndicate wasn't talking strictly stamina, he was using that sparring match as evidence Galen is better than Ahsoka period. Vader was never going all out on him, and regardless if Vader was "pushing him to his limits" we have no idea what limits those were. I'm quite aware that it's a very impressive stamina feat, though.
Well, since he's talking strictly stamina, it basically is. I don't know who the **** you think Vader is, but he's not exactly going to let Marek take a quick five to grab a glass of water and breathe. Nor is he the kind of person to go easy on Marek, you train by being beaten, Vader would push him to his limits for the full duration.
Originally posted by SelenialAnd Ahsoka has fought evenly with a far superior Juyo master in Maul, and at one point in the duel advances on him and pushes him back, albeit briefly. I know what you're going to say to that, but the fact that Ahsoka was capable of pushing back an incredibly offensive fighter back speaks volumes to her own offensive potency, even if it was brief. Marek mastering three forms is cool I guess but in terms of pure combative effectiveness and feats Ahsoka simply outstrips him.
Furthermore, I don't see why everyone's placing Marek below Ahsoka in blade work. This guy's mastered three seperate forms of Lightsaber combat by this point, Soresu being one of them. His defense was good enough to hold back a fully trained Juyo master, which is supposedly the hardest form to defend against and requiring many other forms mastered to even learn... His fights with Ti and Paratus should be taken into account too. All he did was refine his force techniques and his adaptability, so it's not like he improved so dramatically that his fights with them are out of early-Galen's reach.
What about Marek's performances against Kazdan or Ti put him above or near Ahsoka as a duelist, lol? He wasn't really doing too well in either cases. 😬
Also, you say Galen hasn't improved much between Kota and Ti, but Vader seems to disagree, because he goes from stating he doesn't think Marek will survive Kazdan, then he says how Kazdan and Kota were plebs and Marek needs to face a true Jedi Master in Shaak Ti. I'm sure there was some decent amounts of improvement...
Originally posted by SelenialWhy would him being blind (and did his fall actually cause lasting injuries?) make him more susceptible to getting butt****ed by Vader's telekinesis?
Y'all mother****ers using Kota vs Vader as an example, forgetting that he was blind and had fallen kilometres off a space station, hardly in his prime.
Originally posted by SelenialI don't know, gurl. She's a much superior duelist than he and powerful enough to not get 'shat on' in the Force, so I think she'll take his lily white ass to the curb. Ahsoka will succeed where Shaak Ti miserably failed. 🙂
I don't see how Ahsoka's making it through Galen's defences before being shat on in the force...
Originally posted by SyndicateLMAO. Don't assume my world revolves around you dear. 😉
I think you're lying to be completely honest.
When he faced Ezra he only bothered talking to him because he was confident in his ability to dispatch Ezra and take the holocron. Like many Sith including Maul Vader suffers from overconfidence....And yet he has an even longer exchange with Ahsoka, guess he didn't believe her a threat either right?
*Shrug* Say he didn't. As I mentioned he's still not going to want to wait for Maul or someone else who might have knowledge on how to use it to make their way up to Ezra.Right, point being that we've no reason to assume Vader believed it was about to fire, heck we can't even claim Vader knew how it worked.
Evidence? When have we been shown that Vader's standard senses are projected hundreds of meters in canon?I needn't even provide any considering Maul sensed the presence of ships dropping out of hyperspace over Dathomir, and indeed sensed Vader's arrival on Malachor. It's common sense.
Regardless the fact that he effortless Force choked someone radioing him from orbit i.e. from thousands of kilometers away, proves that his perceptions well exceed a few hundred meters.
Because he's still going to have to be monitoring things occurring outside of the fight.Which he can do without any need to project and therefore without any detriment to his abilities.
I don't assume your world does. Just that a singular thread you made at a time when I was getting Ahsoka does. 😛
Maybe not one that would inconvenience him as much as she actually did.
Granted, though he does seem to have some familiarity with the Sith Temple as we see in his conversation with Ezra. The weapon however looks like its charging up to me. Strange flashing lights being emitted and what not.
Was Maul engaged in battle or otherwise occupied when he sensed this? Also the example you provided is Vader focusing specifically on the person he's radioing with no other distractions.
Let me give you an example. Vader senses all force users in the surrounding area. Maul, Kanan, Ezra and of course Ahsoka. He knows where they are but currently most of his focus is on the fight with Ahsoka. Don't you think he's going to have to keep tabs on these other force users during the fight which would take away some of his focus in his fight with Ahsoka? Granted Ahsoka would have to do the same in regards to Maul.
Originally posted by SyndicateOK, but assumptions aside nothing implicit or explicit suggests he was in a hurry to receive the holocron, merely that he wanted it.
Maybe not one that would inconvenience him as much as she actually did.
Granted, though he does seem to have some familiarity with the Sith Temple as we see in his conversation with Ezra. The weapon however looks like its charging up to me. Strange flashing lights being emitted and what not.OK, but what it looks like to you isn't really relevant.
Was Maul engaged in battle or otherwise occupied when he sensed this? Also the example you provided is Vader focusing specifically on the person he's radioing with no other distractions.Nope, but then he sensed something from infinitely further than the distances were discussing, and Vader is significantly more powerful than him.
The same goes for the second example, he was hundreds of thousands of kilometer away.
Let me give you an example. Vader senses all force users in the surrounding area. Maul, Kanan, Ezra and of course Ahsoka. He knows where they are but currently most of his focus is on the fight with Ahsoka. Don't you think he's going to have to keep tabs on these other force users during the fight which would take away some of his focus in his fight with Ahsoka? Granted Ahsoka would have to do the same in regards to Maul.No. As I said before it would be a rookie error to give undue concentration (bar simple awareness of his surroundings) to the environment when he is engaging a lethal adversary and when it would serve no purpose, as its not as if he can do anything while Ahsoka has him occupied. Focusing on events elsewhere only extending that period of occupation.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK, but assumptions aside nothing implicit or explicit suggests he was in a hurry to receive the holocron, merely that he wanted it.OK, but what it looks like to you isn't really relevant.Nope, but then he sensed something from infinitely further than the distances were discussing, and Vader is significantly more powerful than him.The same goes for the second example, he was hundreds of thousands of kilometer away.No. As I said before it would be a rookie error to give undue concentration (bar simple awareness of his surroundings) to the environment when he is engaging a lethal adversary and when it would serve no purpose, as its not as if he can do anything while Ahsoka has him occupied. Focusing on events elsewhere only extending that period of occupation.
If you don't think that that's alright with me. I hold a different opinion however considering his mission was to retrieve it and it was powering up over his head.
It probably looked like that to Vader as well. Even if he didn't think Ezra could use it why take the risk?
Distance doesn't get rid of the attention you have to direct at the thing you're sensing.
"undue concentration" And that's what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting Vader would be actively keeping tags on all the people in the surrounding vicinity just that he'd be turning some of his attention to them. Ahsoka would likely do the same with Maul. You don't think this is likely?
Originally posted by SyndicateBut it wasn't, so your opinion is wrong. 😬
If you don't think that that's alright with me. I hold a different opinion however considering his mission was to retrieve it and it was powering up over his head.
It probably looked like that to Vader as well. Even if he didn't think Ezra could use it why take the risk?Until you substantiate your opinion with actual proof, I have no reason to care.
Distance doesn't get rid of the attention you have to direct at the thing you're sensing.Maul wasn't directing his attention at anything in either of those examples. And obviously ones perceptions will be stronger at closer range.
"undue concentration" And that's what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting Vader would be actively keeping tags on all the people in the surrounding vicinity just that he'd be turning some of his attention to them. Ahsoka would likely do the same with Maul. You don't think this is likely?Yes, but not enough to detriment his combat abilities, which would be again be both a rookiee error and counter intuitive.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But it wasn't, so your opinion is wrong. 😬Until you substantiate your opinion with actual proof, I have no reason to care.Maul wasn't directing his attention at anything in either of those examples. And obviously ones perceptions will be stronger at closer range.Yes, but not enough to detriment his combat abilities, which would be again be both a rookiee error and counter intuitive.
Well it actually was considering it just needed commands to be inputted for it to be used.
Fair enough. If you want to hold a different one that's fine. I was simply explaining why I believe what I believe.
Maul became aware of the ships presence upon it coming out of hyperspace thus it took up a part of his attention for that moment. If he chose to actively ignore it or continue to focus attention on it afterwards that was his choice.
But you admit that it would have been a factor for both combatants?
Originally posted by SyndicateOK.
Maul became aware of the ships presence upon it coming out of hyperspace thus it took up a part of his attention for that moment. If he chose to actively ignore it or continue to focus attention on it afterwards that was his choice.
But you admit that it would have been a factor for both combatants?No more so than any other combat related scenario, where is important to remain aware of your surroundings and avoid tunnel vision.
If anything the fact Ahsoka was able to duel evenly with a stronger opponent than her yet still remain aware of what was going on at the temple's apex demonstrates any impact would have been negligible.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK.No more so than any other combat related scenario, where is important to remain aware of your surroundings and avoid tunnel vision.If anything the fact Ahsoka was able to duel evenly with a stronger opponent than her yet still remain aware of what was going on at the temple's apex demonstrates any impact would have been negligible.
"yet still remain aware of what was going on at the temple's apex"
What do you mean by this?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That she was aware of where Ezra was and perhaps/probably sensed Vader's arrival.
When did she shown awareness of Ezra's location during the fight with Vader? Granted she knew where he was beforehand but why would she have given attention to his position after the fact when she's fighting Vader?