This is the last six page long post I respond to. If you're going to be asinine about your posting, you aren't worth responding to, and I mean this in light of how little worth I gave you to begin with.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@Freshestslice
Also, read the entire response before responding this time.
Didn't you assert in another threat that knowledge = power? Now you are distinguishing the two?
The Jedi High Council look into several aspects before selecting a candidate for a higher rank. Otherwise, individuals such as Coleman Trebor would not become a member of the Jedi High Council.
Bastila Shan was a powerful Jedi but she was also brash and impulsive and the Jedi High Council of her era felt that she needed more time to control her emotions. Her promotion would depend upon it.
Let's drop the 'padawan' nonsense and focus on the facts at hand; recognizing Bastila Shan as a powerful Jedi will be start for you.
Where it is stated that she was considered powerful due to her proficiency in a single talent? Don't make silly assumptions. They won't fly with me.
Now pay attention to following revelations:*snip*
*snip
Bastila Shan was considered powerful because she was strong in the Force and became proficient in the use of different powers. She was particularly renowned for her proficiency in the use of Battle Meditation.
Assertion such as "She has nothing else to her name" is utterly silly. Nobody is praised for his proficiency in Telekinesis.
Show me an example of a random Sith trooper repelling a Lightsaber-throw in a cutscene.
CONTEXT, my friend. Learn about it.And same is true for Darth Maul and Savage Opress in comparison to Revan... Shan's inferiority to Revan is not a mark against her.
Most 'are' inferior to Revan.
You explain to me how they got there. Did they teleport into that area?
I am curious! Are you a kid who needs citation to figure things out and lack any logical deductive ability of their own?Learn to use common sense.
Didn't address my point. Let me know when you have one.
Yes. That too.This is relevant (and meaningful) demonstration of power however:
*snip*The only meaningful information you can offer is that Savage Opress managed to put Count Dooku in a choke-hold and defeated some Jedi. Nothing else matters in this discussion.
And any "powerful" Force-user could do that.
No, this stuff is beneath him.Breaking windows is impressive now?
Darth Malak being able to affect powerful Jedi such as Bastila Shan and Revan with his powers, is sufficient proof in my books.
😬Bastila could be thought of as a second-tier Jedi. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.
Taken from Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 6
Are you not paying attention?
Yes, but Revan was no push-over when he fought Darth Malak for the first time in the game.
And if the time between the first and second confrontation is only 3 weeks then you don't have a solid ground to argue that Revan was significantly weak during first confrontation.
Then we won't get anywhere in this debate.
This is lame argument.Savage Opress have superior TK showings then Malak so he must be stronger as well?
Jedi Master Orgus Din have superior TK showings then Darth Angral but the latter slaughtered the former in a confrontation.
Right... That's why it was necessary to retrain Revan in the ways of the Force...Wait:
I agree with Master Dorak. Many of our own pupils are leaving the Jedi Order to follow the Sith teachings, we need recruits to stand against Malak! With Revan dead... (Master Vandar)
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Together you two may be able to stop Darth Malak and the Sith. (Master Vandar)
You may find more examples.
I laughed at your silly assumption that Savage Opress is more dominating (and stronger) opponent then Revan. I don't take stupid assumptions seriously.I have brought on the table what I could. I leave the ball in your court now.
No, they are useful. However, there is a need to focus on ambiguities.We know he is “among the most powerful Jedi ever”, just like we know Malak is “among the most powerful Sith ever”. If accolades are what you use to assess fights between Force users, you need to concede that Savage has kicked the ass of someone whose own accolades match Malak’s. If you’re either throwing accolades out or only using them as supplementary evidence to more important sources (“feats”), then I’m not seeing why Malak’s are worth bringing up, either.Plo Koon might be counted among the most powerful Jedi but we don't know where he actually stands in the big picture with this bit of information. To address this ambiguity, we look into his feats and performance (in general).
Besides usual stuff, I noticed Plo Koon disarming Aurra Sing, killing droids and criminals, and holding his own against Asajj Ventress (while being injured). However, we have evidence of him loosing to Savage Opress, so we have an indication from this that where he might stand.We know that Plo is a rough peer of Ventress (someone with an extremely impressive dueling track record), and that he has equivalent accolades to Malak. Savage kicked his ass. I think that gives an indication of where Malak is as well.
Savage Opress is good (no doubts about this). But I don't perceive him to be among the most powerful Sith; he never even acquired the mantle in the first place. His losses to real Sith like Darth Maul, Count Dooku and Palpatine imply that he was not up to the mark.Where you perceive him to be matters little. Savage exists in an era where the most powerful Sith ever (Sidious) is the leading Dark Lord of the Sith, and is following a philosophy where only one other Sith can exist at that time, as his apprentice. Despite that, starwars.com and many other sources recognize Savage as a “Sith” or “Sith apprentice” to both Maul and Dooku, and this was achieved within just months of training. Malak enjoys the luxury of living in an era where thousands of shmucks can attain the rank of Sith.
In other words, rank doesn’t actually mean anything when it comes to combat, but if it did, it’d be much more impressive to become a Sith during the era with the narrowest, most difficult selection process in history, rather than one of the easiest.
Also, Savage losing to Maul, Dooku and Sidious doesn’t mean he loses to Malak. It means he loses to those three. This would be another example of you using illogical arguments which fail in attempting to make links between Malak and Savage.
On the other hand, we have Darth Malak who not just became a Sith but proved his mettle by ruling an Empire in an era when multiple masters of the Force co-existed with him and were members of his Empire. Other Jedi attempted to stop him (including powerful Bastila Shan) but only Revan succeeded. This is a measure of his strength.
And who exactly did Malak rule over that is worth mentioning?
You say that Plo Koon is counted among the most powerful Jedi ever?No, Legends does.
Well, Bastila Shan is considered to be in the league of Count Dooku and Obi-Wan Kenobi:Bastila could be thought of as a second-tier Jedi. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus.
Taken from Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 6
“But [s]his[/s] her lack of performance in combat situations doesn't bodes well for him and his hype.”
You can’t have it both ways. Also, your source is shaky at best given that it conflicts with most other sources (which would paint Mace Windu as pretty frigging close to Dooku, and Dooku as much more powerful than Kenobi), and comes from a Star Wars miniature produced by the people who create roleplaying books.
So, either we go by feats, and accolades don’t mean shit (and Savage wins), or we go by accolades, where frankly Savage will still end up winning given that the amount of PT wank I can unleash on this thread will take a couple of pages to fill.
There might be one person but it isn't Savage Opress.It’s a possibility we simply can’t ignore. 🙂
It is a meaningless/poorly written statement.Given that your Bastila accolade is just as poorly written, I’m not seeing where the legs are you’re supposed to be standing on. Your entire argument seems to revolve around me giving a blind eye to your double standards while rolling on my back every time I produce material you disagree with on a personal level. That’s not really how debating works. Savage is a master of the Dark Side.You are not a master until you achieve refinement.
Savage Opress is good; never doubted this. But these showings aren't something that a Dark Lord should not be capable of. I am looking at the bigger picture here.Huh? The point was, we were playing the accolade fight regarding Savage being a “master” of the Dark Side, and I was proving that his “crude mastery” went on to see refinement, which is what was missing from your criteria for Savage being up to snuff; him needing refinement to compete with Malak. Now that I’ve proven he has the refinement you can’t change the goal posts and protest that you don’t think the feats mentioned are impressive.
Also, let me know when Malgus can affect a metal that is largely considered impenetrable, even to lightsabers. Among the few examples of it being broken I know of are Exar Kun, someone who can make his lightsaber strikes heard for kilometers and smash lightsaber-proof wood, requiring over a handful of full power strikes to break a Beskar wall, and Darth Caedus needing to use Shatterpoint to destroy Beskar armor. Or to use another gauge, Boba Fett’s durasteel armor (which is immeasurably inferior to his Beskar stuff) allowed him to eat a missile with little more than a scratch.
Does Malak have power on this level by virtue of feats?
Darth Malak proved to be worthy of being a Sith Lord (not just being a Sith Lord but also proved himself worthy of being referenced among the greatest Sith) and examples of his powers were cited by even the likes of Darth Plagueis while instructing his apprentice.As I said before, the criteria needed to become a Sith Lord during the PT are much, much higher than it was in Malak’s day. Malak would probably feel just as unworthy if he was in the presence of the likes of Sheev and Maul.Savage Opress was a Sith wannabe and died as as Sith wannabe (personally admitting his lack of ability). At least, he had the courage to admit his shortcomings.
Also, no, Savage was factually not a “Sith wannabe”. He is referenced as a Sith all over starwars.com. Jedi and third person narrators refer to him and Maul as “Sith” constantly. He’s featured in a frigging comic called “The Sith Hunters” that focuses on him and Darth Maul. Sure, he isn’t as fully trained as he could have been given the time, but that doesn’t stop him from both being a Sith and giving “real Sith Lords” such as Dooku, or some of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed like Kenobi, Anakin and Plo Koon, migraines.
Also, again, if we’re playing the accolades game, Malak is one of the most powerful Sith; Plo Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi. Savage kicked Plo’s ass. Do the math.
All of it is relevant! Freezing (powerful) Bastilla Shan [alongside Carth Onasi] and then multi-tasking by trapping Revan into a whirlwind of energy! It is a really impressive showing.More impressive than Savage holding Ventress and Dooku in his grasp against their will, forcing them to combine their power just to make a hasty retreat from him? I’m not feeling it.
Savage Opress's choke-hold on the duo of Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku was a temporary gain for him or you think that he would have choked both to death?He was more enraged than usual, but he was also months away from his prime, and by that time he would have received ample extra Sith training and growth to make up a good deal of the gap. Not to mention, choking out Malak is a much easier task than choking out Ventress and Dooku combined. Dooku alone eclipses Malak’s power, and Ventress has some impressive feats to her name as well.
At maximum, the aforementioned feat implies that he can put Darth Malak in a chokehold but he isn't gaining anything from it because Darth Malak will eventually resist it and resume spanking.On the contrary, if I was overly zealous, I’d assert that Savage would choke Malak out and be done with it if he was so inclined since Dooku and Ventress combined are far stronger than Malak. That said, I don’t think either will be able to just choke each other out. I more see Savage gradually beating Malak into submission with his greater power and skill as a fighter and Force wielder.
Yes [Malak is a better duelist].Prove it.
You need to prove that Savage Opress can resist powers of Darth Malak in the first place. You can't.I can. Savage endured multiple lightning blasts from Dooku; Dooku has oneshotted Ventress and killed handfuls of Nightbrothers with his lightning. Unless Malak’s lightning is up to scratch with Dooku’s, Savage will probably just get even more pissed off by it. He’s also likely learned how to deflect lightning given that; 1. it’s fairly simple practice that even Ventress was capable of, who lacked Sith training, 2. He trained with Darth Maul for months, who no doubt knows how to deflect lightning, and 3. In cut content they intended to have Savage showing the initiative to block Sidious’ lightning.
Is there any compelling argument for why that combination of inference is unreasonable?
As for Drain.. Show me Malak draining someone as powerful as Savage.
@ILS
Quoting system not working again, so I will quote your responses in a normal way.
We know he is “among the most powerful Jedi ever”, just like we know Malak is “among the most powerful Sith ever”. If accolades are what you use to assess fights between Force users, you need to concede that Savage has kicked the ass of someone whose own accolades match Malak’s. If you’re either throwing accolades out or only using them as supplementary evidence to more important sources (“feats”), then I’m not seeing why Malak’s are worth bringing up, either.
We don't see Darth Malak in big-budget mediums and/or novels so we have to stick with his showings in the game that do not impress you much either. Therefore, I will attempt another method to argue in favor of Darth Malak; the method of power-scaling. For this, I will cite some showings of his inferiors.
Lucien Draay
Lucien Draay killed several Jedi during a gathering, withstood a blast of power from Zayne Carrick at point-blank range, prevented a large stature from crushing him beneath, tolerated powers unleashed through Ludo Kressh's gauntlets against him, demonstrated the capability of collapsing/destroying structures, sent Zayne and one of his companions packing simultaneously with a gesture, destroyed several large (loader) droids simultaneously, and similarly destroyed several HK series droids simultaneously.
Zayne Carrick
Zayne Carrick levitated a large number of miners to safety (simultaneously) from an unstable comet. He was regarded as a mediocre Jedi of his era by the way.
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Darth Malak, being superior to Lucien Draay and Zayne Carrick, would be capable of relatively more impressive showings and tolerance capacity.
We know that Plo is a rough peer of Ventress (someone with an extremely impressive dueling track record), and that he has equivalent accolades to Malak. Savage kicked his ass. I think that gives an indication of where Malak is as well.
Also, you are presenting a rosy picture of Savage Opress and ignoring his share of embarrassments. Obi-Wan Kenobi injured Savage Opress in a confrontation while being pressed by both Darth Maul and Savage Opress. The latter had grown in power and skill at this point but still got his @ss handed to him by a Jedi who was legitimately among the most powerful of his era.
Therefore, Plo Koon's accolade doesn't reflects upon the competence of Darth Malak vis-a-vis Savage Opress. It's a bad analogy.
Where you perceive him to be matters little. Savage exists in an era where the most powerful Sith ever (Sidious) is the leading Dark Lord of the Sith, and is following a philosophy where only one other Sith can exist at that time, as his apprentice. Despite that, starwars.com and many other sources recognize Savage as a “Sith” or “Sith apprentice” to both Maul and Dooku, and this was achieved within just months of training. Malak enjoys the luxury of living in an era where thousands of shmucks can attain the rank of Sith.In other words, rank doesn’t actually mean anything when it comes to combat, but if it did, it’d be much more impressive to become a Sith during the era with the narrowest, most difficult selection process in history, rather than one of the easiest.
Also, Savage losing to Maul, Dooku and Sidious doesn’t mean he loses to Malak. It means he loses to those three. This would be another example of you using illogical arguments which fail in attempting to make links between Malak and Savage.
Yes, Savage Opress was a 'Sith apprentice' at best. However, Malak became a Darth (and) ruler of a Sith Empire. There is a clear distinction in the promotion of both characters.
Thousands of shumucks could attain the rank of Sith during the era of Darth Malak? This is based on?
I am sure that Darth Revan established stringent standards for producing Sith for his Empire since he desired quality (and did not take failures kindly) and his teachings inspired Darth Bane to establish [Rule of Two], a lineage that eventually culminated in Palpatine. Equally important is the fact that Darth Malak maintained the status quo after the fall of Darth Revan; not compromising on the standards of producing Sith.
Average Sith of the KoTOR era were already proficient in Jedi arts since they were largely converties and learned new powers during the Sith trials. They were good enough for the task of assassinating hardened Jedi and individuals (with great potential among them) would climb the ranks and become Sith Lords.
"With legions of armored troops spreading throughout the galaxy, all led by masters of the Force, the Sith Empire seems unstoppable.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Now, let us reexamine the capabilities of Sith of KoTOR era in general:
Sith student
The Sith students of Darth Revan and Darth Malak are many of the same Jedi crusaders that once fought for the Republic. Loyal to their fearless commander, they follow Revan to Korriban and into the heart of Darkness. Already proficient in Jedi arts, these marauders acquire new nefarious talents studying at the feet of the Sith academy headmaster Jorun Uln - one of Exar Kun's original acolytes.
Sith students fighting capabilities are surpassed only by their range and selfishness.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Remarks: Sith students of Darth Malak's Empire are already a match for fully-trained Jedi of the era.
Sith assassin
Established by Darth Revan and heavily utilized by Darth Sion, these surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of execution. They drain the Force from their targets to augment their own powers and expertly turn captives into Sith with a combination of torture, Sith poisons, and the dark-side-drenched masks they wear.
The most elite of these assassins are the Bladeborn - Sith blademasters who sometimes use lightsabers and more often wield dreaded tremor swords.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Remarks: Sith assassins tend to proficient in the use of Force Drain powers (that grant them advantage in combat situations) and Jedi dueling arts.
Shadow Hand
A Shadow Hand's expertise in cruelty, trickery and the dark side are second only to the Sith Master - for now.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Remarks: These are the chosen apprentices of Darths of the Empire.
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I believe that Sith Masters (or Darths) of the era do not need any introduction. More importantly, your assumptions are baseless.
And who exactly did Malak rule over that is worth mentioning?
Well, to take a quote out of one your own posts:“But [s]his[/s] her lack of performance in combat situations doesn't bodes well for him and his hype.”
You can’t have it both ways. Also, your source is shaky at best given that it conflicts with most other sources (which would paint Mace Windu as pretty frigging close to Dooku, and Dooku as much more powerful than Kenobi), and comes from a Star Wars miniature produced by the people who create roleplaying books.
So, either we go by feats, and accolades don’t mean shit (and Savage wins), or we go by accolades, where frankly Savage will still end up winning given that the amount of PT wank I can unleash on this thread will take a couple of pages to fill.
That source is shaky at best? Is it OK to pick and choose among the official revelations now? If yes, then I may disregard Plo Koon's accolade of being one of the most powerful Jedi ever.
Count Dooku didn't outgun Obi-Wan Kenobi by a massive margin. The latter was powerful and skilled enough to handle Anakin Skywalker head-on. Count Dooku overwhelmed Obi-Wan Kenobi through aggressive use of his command the Force.
It’s a possibility we simply can’t ignore. smile
Given that your Bastila accolade is just as poorly written, I’m not seeing where the legs are you’re supposed to be standing on. Your entire argument seems to revolve around me giving a blind eye to your double standards while rolling on my back every time I produce material you disagree with on a personal level. That’s not really how debating works. Savage is a master of the Dark Side.
I am not disagreeing with the material you cited. I am just pointing out the obvious. There is no such thing as 'crude' mastery of the Force. You are either a master of the Force or not. Simple.
I have also stated that Savage Opress is good. However, we don't witness him demonstrating advanced Sith powers and/or successfully countering them. He did not become a master of the Dark Side.
Huh? The point was, we were playing the accolade fight regarding Savage being a “master” of the Dark Side, and I was proving that his “crude mastery” went on to see refinement, which is what was missing from your criteria for Savage being up to snuff; him needing refinement to compete with Malak. Now that I’ve proven he has the refinement you can’t change the goal posts and protest that you don’t think the feats mentioned are impressive.Also, let me know when Malgus can affect a metal that is largely considered impenetrable, even to lightsabers. Among the few examples of it being broken I know of are Exar Kun, someone who can make his lightsaber strikes heard for kilometers and smash lightsaber-proof wood, requiring over a handful of full power strikes to break a Beskar wall, and Darth Caedus needing to use Shatterpoint to destroy Beskar armor. Or to use another gauge, Boba Fett’s durasteel armor (which is immeasurably inferior to his Beskar stuff) allowed him to eat a missile with little more than a scratch.
Does Malak have power on this level by virtue of feats?
You offer nothing that suggests that Savage Opress would not be affected by powers of Darth Malak. By virtue of power-scaling (see above) and proficiency in advanced Sith powers, I expect Darth Malak to have advantage in this hypothetical confrontation.
How is affecting some kind of metal relevant to this confrontation? Was it relevant against Obi-Wan Kenobi and Palpatine?
As I said before, the criteria needed to become a Sith Lord during the PT are much, much higher than it was in Malak’s day. Malak would probably feel just as unworthy if he was in the presence of the likes of Sheev and Maul.
Also, no, Savage was factually not a “Sith wannabe”. He is referenced as a Sith all over starwars.com. Jedi and third person narrators refer to him and Maul as “Sith” constantly. He’s featured in a frigging comic called “The Sith Hunters” that focuses on him and Darth Maul. Sure, he isn’t as fully trained as he could have been given the time, but that doesn’t stop him from both being a Sith and giving “real Sith Lords” such as Dooku, or some of the most powerful Jedi to have ever existed like Kenobi, Anakin and Plo Koon, migraines.
Also, again, if we’re playing the accolades game, Malak is one of the most powerful Sith; Plo Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi. Savage kicked Plo’s ass. Do the math.
More impressive than Savage holding Ventress and Dooku in his grasp against their will, forcing them to combine their power just to make a hasty retreat from him? I’m not feeling it.
Keep in mind that Darth Malak had to keep Bastila Shan and Carth Onasi immobile while dueling with Revan and managed to incapacitate Revan on top of his former actions (multi-tasking).
He was more enraged than usual, but he was also months away from his prime, and by that time he would have received ample extra Sith training and growth to make up a good deal of the gap. Not to mention, choking out Malak is a much easier task than choking out Ventress and Dooku combined. Dooku alone eclipses Malak’s power, and Ventress has some impressive feats to her name as well.
On the contrary, if I was overly zealous, I’d assert that Savage would choke Malak out and be done with it if he was so inclined since Dooku and Ventress combined are far stronger than Malak. That said, I don’t think either will be able to just choke each other out. I more see Savage gradually beating Malak into submission with his greater power and skill as a fighter and Force wielder.
I see the opposite.