Originally posted by The Ellimist
Maybe, but that would feed into my point, because The Emperor wouldn't be put into a bacta tank for a week in a fight against Galen Marek.Luke vs. Caedus is a closer fight than Sidious vs. pre-vaapad Windu, who is comparable to or superior to Dooku as a swordsman, who is IMHO above Starkiller as a duelist.
If Galen had all the circumstantial advantages Caedus did I'd say he could.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Caedus did as well as he did by fighting smart which I do doubt would've worked as well against a level headed Luke.
Yep. An emotional Luke suffering from preexisting injuries which Caedus focused on causing more damage to in an environment he knew well when the pain from his injury was stated to have empowered him and Luke was still beating a Caedus attempting to flee. :6
Caedus's illusions have fooled Luke before. He also has shatterpoint and a bunch of other esoteric Force abilities in combination with having more raw power than Darth Vader, the second/third best damage soak in the mythos after Sion and maybe Maul, and vastly greater feats with a lightsaber. He crushes him, tbh.
Galen comes somewhat close to him (as in, Dooku to Vader) in raw power, but loses out in every other category. These modest but numerous disadvantages aggregate into a curbstomp.
Given his feats don't reflect his supposed superiority to Vader who imo always held back against his son as he wanted to turn him to the dark side and this is based off Luke's musings I don't buy that.
Vastly greater feats with a lightsaber? So you're saying getting your lightsaber almost knocked out of your hands by a heavily injured Luke and dodging and blocking blows as you attempt to run away is vastly superior to out dueling Vader? Lol.
Galen absolutely destroys him in raw power.
You're delusional. Caedus's illusions won't be the deciding factor against a more powerful and comparably skilled duelist.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Given his feats don't reflect his supposed superiority to Vader
Putting Luke in a bacta tank for a week? Deflecting turbolaser bolts? Shattering besk'ar with a touch? Fooling Luke with illusions? Yeah, sure. 🙄
who imo always held back against his son as he wanted to turn him to the dark side
We get Vader's PoV in the RotJ novel. If he was holding back, he didn't know it himself.
(Also Luke was holding back even more...)
and this is based off Luke's musings I don't buy that.
It's actually based off of the preview in the hard cover version.
He's also stated to be the second most powerful person in the galaxy, so he's above Kyp Durron.
Vastly greater feats with a lightsaber? So you're saying getting your lightsaber almost knocked out of your hands by a heavily injured Luke and dodging and blocking blows as you attempt to run away is vastly superior to out dueling Vader? Lol.
Did you actually read the passage? He makes Luke scream several times and, according to C3PO in Invincible, Luke had to spend a week in a bacta tank. Caedus lost, but he did pretty damn well for how he was doing.
Now, what has Starkiller done with a lightsaber? Struggle against Kota and Shaak Ti? Struggle against random shadow guards? Get overpowered by a pre-prime Vader who couldn't seem to overwhelm an old and over-the-hill Kenobi?
Starkiller and Vader together wouldn't have beaten Palpatine. Caedus alone posed a legitimate danger to Luke. Now look at the dark side ending in TFUI; Sidious two shots him.
Galen absolutely destroys him in raw power.
Galen is pre-prime Vader's level. Caedus put up a fight against Luke. I don't see how they're comparable at all.
You're delusional. Caedus's illusions won't be the deciding factor against a more powerful and comparably skilled duelist.
He fools both Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker (one of the best illusionists of all time) with them.
Let's review all of the advantages Caedus has in this rather one-sided affair:
[LIST]
[*]He's explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader according to the narrator, who by RotJ had probably surpassed Galen. Your personal disagreement with canon statements does not negate what's written.
[*]He has incorporated into combat illusions which can fool the most powerful non-entity/amped Force wielder of all time.
[*]He has ridiculous pain tolerance, feeling confident in fighting anyone in the galaxy but Skywalker with one arm.
[*]He knows shatterpoint, .ie fold space, and a bunch of other estoeric Force abilities Galen's probably never heard of.
[*]He has put Luke in a bacta tank for a week, albeit ultimately losing, while Galen struggles against Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota.
[*]He's considered by the main characters to be the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy, .ie above dorvin-basil moving, "I'm stronger than Luke" Kyp Durron.
[/LIST]
There is basically nothing that Galen Marek has over Caedus, who is probably the third, fourth or fifth most powerful sith lord of all time.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Putting Luke in a bacta tank for a week? Deflecting turbolaser bolts? Shattering besk'ar with a touch? Fooling Luke with illusions? Yeah, sure. 🙄We get Vader's PoV in the RotJ novel. If he was holding back, he didn't know it himself.
(Also Luke was holding back even more...)
It's actually based off of the preview in the hard cover version.
He's also stated to be the second most powerful person in the galaxy, so he's above Kyp Durron.
Did you actually read the passage? He makes Luke scream several times and, according to C3PO in Invincible, Luke had to spend a week in a bacta tank. Caedus lost, but he did pretty damn well for how he was doing.
Now, what has Starkiller done with a lightsaber? Struggle against Kota and Shaak Ti? Struggle against random shadow guards? Get overpowered by a pre-prime Vader who couldn't seem to overwhelm an old and over-the-hill Kenobi?
Starkiller and Vader together wouldn't have beaten Palpatine. Caedus alone posed a legitimate danger to Luke. Now look at the dark side ending in TFUI; Sidious two shots him.
Galen is pre-prime Vader's level. Caedus put up a fight against Luke. I don't see how they're comparable at all.
He fools both Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker (one of the best illusionists of all time) with them.
Let's review all of the advantages Caedus has in this rather one-sided affair:
[LIST]
[*]He's explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader according to the narrator, who by RotJ had probably surpassed Galen. Your personal disagreement with canon statements does not negate what's written.
[*]He has incorporated into combat illusions which can fool the most powerful non-entity/amped Force wielder of all time.
[*]He has ridiculous pain tolerance, feeling confident in fighting anyone in the galaxy but Skywalker with one arm.
[*]He knows shatterpoint, .ie fold space, and a bunch of other estoeric Force abilities Galen's probably never heard of.
[*]He has put Luke in a bacta tank for a week, albeit ultimately losing, while Galen struggles against Shaak Ti and Rahm Kota.
[*]He's considered by the main characters to be the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy, .ie above dorvin-basil moving, "I'm stronger than Luke" Kyp Durron.
[/LIST]There is basically nothing that Galen Marek has over Caedus, who is probably the third, fourth or fifth most powerful sith lord of all time.
Given the circumstances of the first feat, the fact that Vader has replicated the second, the question of if Caedus's has ever actively used shatterpoint in combat and the fact that Galen has already faced and overcome similar illusions, yes.
Luke was holding back only in so much as he didn't want to kill his father and subsequently turn to the Dark Side. Vader was holding back as he wanted to turn his son to the Dark Side and use him an ally to defeat Sidious. Of course Luke's perception of Vader is going to be off especially given Vader never attempted to actively ragdoll him at the most only testing him on Bespin by throwing objects at him.
Quote? Also regardless the Plagueis novel states that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord in history on the back cover. I wouldn't take it as gospel.
By catching Luke off guard by throwing a Vong torture rack at him and focusing on an already wounded area of Luke's body. Given the circumstances I should hope he would do that well otherwise all sense of stakes would have been lost.
Aside from being stated to have nearly perfected lightsaber combat he out dueled Vader 2 years before ANH where he has already accomplished some of his best feats, been stated to have reworked his form to compensate for any of the suit's weaknesses and employ multiple forms in his fighting style and has on top of all his experience and knowledge as Anakin, all of his experience and knowledge from 17 years of being the Emperor's enforcer thus making him highly more skilled then his RotS incarnation. Also all those feats you mention are after Galen has fought through entire armies and before his prime. Also he never struggled with shadow guards either choking them or electrocuting them to death in the novelizations.
That's debatable actually given Galen and Vader's various feats in comparison to Sidious. Also the dark side ending is non canon. Caedus was effortlessly pinned to his chair by a Luke Skywalker that didn't even have to gesture. He was in retreat the whole time against a wounded emotionally unstable Luke who was poisoned and had his injury aggravated throughout the fight. Stop exaggerating Caedus's performance.
Galen is imo above RotJ Vader level and as we've seen is undeniably superior to Vader by TFU which is 2 years before ANH. Maybe because if you compare their actual force feats you'll realize Galen outstrips him in every category?
And? Explain how it will tip a confrontation between them in his favor rather then saying "Ermagerd dere su gud."
And Plagueis is stated to be more powerful then Vitiate. Do you also believe that?
And? Explain how you think that will affect the fight rather then wanking it as something amazing that will allow him to instantly win.
As does Galen having resisted the heat of lightsaber blades BEFORE being remade stronger then before.
Explain how that will help him in an actual confrontation then. Also if you don't mind I'd appreciate if you provided me a quote where he uses fold space or shatterpoint whilst in combat.
A pre prime Galen beats both Shaak and Kota after fighting his way through entire armies you mean and Caedus put an already wounded emotionally hindered Luke in the bacta tank by constantly retreating, throwing poison racks, abusing Ben's presence and focusing on Luke's wounded area.
Considering he seemed to struggle to manipulate a space fighter I doubt he could replicate such a feat.
Lol. Until Caedus has actual feats proving he's a superior force user or even a superior duelist then Galen don't bother responding.
Kyp Durron would beat Starkiller
Caedus > kyp
I don't see any argument here
Caedus folds space his lightsaber into starkillers brain and game over
You said getting beat by an injured luke is embarassing? Starkiller would've been vaporized if he replaced caedus in that fight with luke
Caedus >> Peak Vader >/= Peak Starkiller
Argument over
Originally posted by Syndicate
Given the circumstances of the first feat, the fact that Vader has replicated the second, the question of if Caedus's has ever actively used shatterpoint in combat and the fact that Galen has already faced and overcome similar illusions, yes.
Luke had a bad knee and Caedus was clever with the environment; that's it. It still outstrips anything Galen has ever done with a lightsaber. Or if you disagree, show me the counter-evidence. The only active argument you've made that isn't purely reactionary is that he defeated Vader; prime Vader, according to his PoV passages in the RotJ novelization, was evenly matched in sabers with the Luke Skywalker of that period. Caedus matched blades with a Luke with something like 40 years of experience on top of that, and didn't die.
OK, we're going to power-scale, and it's going to be simple.
RotJ Luke = Vader (as a duelist) ~ Galen Marek (see discussion below about Vader's fight with Luke).
Do you think RotJ Luke would've lasted as long against his LotF counterpart, bad knee and Vong equipment or no?
Didn't think so.
Galen gets his shit stomped. It's pretty simple.
-----------------------------------
When does Galen ever withstand illusions that could fool Luke Skywalker?
Vader was holding back
Prove it, as any hope of victory for you lies in this claim. We see his PoV in the RotJ novel and he explicitly states that Luke is his equal and he needs to go all-out. Mind you, he also says that he feels more powerful than he ever has (like when he fought Galen...)
Vader never attempted to actively ragdoll him at the most only testing him on Bespin by throwing objects at him.
So what? Vader is probably stronger in the Force than RotJ Luke...this has nothing to do with anything here.
Quote? Also regardless the Plagueis novel states that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord in history on the back cover. I wouldn't take it as gospel.
It’s a plan that will be as difficult and dangerous to execute as it is daring. For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader.
The Plagueis novel says that Plagueis was the most powerful sith lord who had ever lived, a belief Plagueis muses himself. Before Palpatine it's not that difficult to believe that he was.
You can't just dismiss narrative statements because you don't like them. You'd need to have overwhelming evidence on your side, not "uh he's better than Vader who's probably stronger than Caedus 'cause I say so".
By catching Luke off guard by throwing a Vong torture rack at him and focusing on an already wounded area of Luke's body. Given the circumstances I should hope he would do that well otherwise all sense of stakes would have been lost.
Thorns and why/whether Luke was hurt by the hits aside, he gets in strikes through Luke's guard. In their duel Starkiller couldn't overwhelm Shaak Ti. Advantage: Caedus.
Aside from being stated to have nearly perfected lightsaber combat
It's said that his bladework is nearly perfect; when I did martial arts my instructor told me that a few times before. It hardly compares with facing Luke.
he out dueled Vader 2 years before ANH where he has already accomplished some of his best feats,
Vader wouldn't last ten seconds against Luke, bad knee or no.
been stated to have reworked his form to compensate for any of the suit's weaknesses and employ multiple forms in his fighting style and has on top of all his experience and knowledge as Anakin, all of his experience and knowledge from 17 years of being the Emperor's enforcer thus making him highly more skilled then his RotS incarnation.
RotS Anakin > Vader as a duelist in Legends.
Also all those feats you mention are after Galen has fought through entire armies and before his prime.
Not the fight with Shaak Ti, which takes place pretty close to his fight with Vader...
Also he never struggled with shadow guards either choking them or electrocuting them to death in the novelizations.
Actually he does struggle with them, as he does with Maris Brood, Shaak Ti, and a Vader who's weaker than the one who couldn't overwhelm Ben Kenobi.
Caedus faced down Luke.
That's debatable actually given Galen and Vader's various feats in comparison to Sidious.
It's explicitly stated that Sidious can "destroy them both".
Also the dark side ending is non canon. Caedus was effortlessly pinned to his chair by a Luke Skywalker that didn't even have to gesture.
He's not comparable to Luke in raw power, no. Neither is Starkiller.
He was in retreat the whole time against a wounded emotionally unstable Luke who was poisoned and had his injury aggravated throughout the fight. Stop exaggerating Caedus's performance.
I get the feeling that you didn't actually read the passage in question. Luke was poisoned because Caedus out-maneuvered him and threw him into some Vong rack, and there's no reason to believe that Luke's dueling abilities were hindered by emotional instability.
The point is that he managed to get hits in against an enraged Luke without using the torture rack. Starkiller can't penetrate the defenses of Shaak Ti.
Galen is imo above RotJ Vader level and as we've seen is undeniably superior to Vader by TFU which is 2 years before ANH.
Vader says in the RotJ novelization that he's stronger than he's ever been. Regardless, both RotJ Vader and Galen would've died within seconds to Luke.
Maybe because if you compare their actual force feats you'll realize Galen outstrips him in every category?
Caedus fought Luke and didn't die. It was a no-holds-barred confrontation, and Luke was free to use whatever Force techniques he wanted to. He's fooled Luke with illusions before. He's stronger than Galen.
And? Explain how it will tip a confrontation between them in his favor rather then saying "Ermagerd dere su gud."
Why the **** couldn't you be bothered to quote things?
And Plagueis is stated to be more powerful then Vitiate. Do you also believe that?
Yes, I do. TPM Palpatine was scared to fight him. Vitiate got knocked on his ass by Revan.
And? Explain how you think that will affect the fight rather then wanking it as something amazing that will allow him to instantly win.As does Galen having resisted the heat of lightsaber blades BEFORE being remade stronger then before.
Explain how that will help him in an actual confrontation then. Also if you don't mind I'd appreciate if you provided me a quote where he uses fold space or shatterpoint whilst in combat.
A pre prime Galen beats both Shaak and Kota after fighting his way through entire armies you mean and Caedus put an already wounded emotionally hindered Luke in the bacta tank by constantly retreating, throwing poison racks, abusing Ben's presence and focusing on Luke's wounded area.
Considering he seemed to struggle to manipulate a space fighter I doubt he could replicate such a feat.
Lol. Until Caedus has actual feats proving he's a superior force user or even a superior duelist then Galen don't bother responding.
I'm not going to continue this if you can't be bothered to either use the quote function or sign-post what you're saying. The simple analysis here comes down to power-scaling: Caedus does better against Luke than pre-vaapad Windu was doing against Sidious, and Windu >= Dooku > Vader (in sabers) ~ Galen. Galen dies horribly.
Originally posted by hutchy1345
Kyp Durron would beat Starkiller
Caedus > kyp
I don't see any argument here
Caedus folds space his lightsaber into starkillers brain and game over
You said getting beat by an injured luke is embarassing? Starkiller would've been vaporized if he replaced caedus in that fight with luke
Caedus >> Peak Vader >/= Peak Starkiller
Argument over
First off upon reading the passage it appears Caedus couldn't even sense Luke's presence in the Force even when he had prior warning. This further supports Caedus's utter inability to compare to Luke as a force user who has also as I've mentioned casually pinned Caedus to a chair without gesturing or making any movements at all. Another good example exemplifying the gap between Caedus and Luke is force users is this little scene.
"He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising. Bad mistake. Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang." - Inferno.
Even when Luke is trapped in a Vong torture device being poisoned and his sense being dulled Caedus is incapable of holding him in place with the Force.
Putting that to the side for now let's address the rest of your post.
Luke not only had a bad knee but a chest wound from his duel with Lumiya.
"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps." - Inferno.
And not only only was Caedus clever with his environment he was completely familiar with it as well. Given this fight takes place on neutral ground he won't have the same advantages he held in his fight against Luke.
It's also specifically mentions that Caedus's pain empowered him making him stronger and faster.
"But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster." - Inferno.
Also you should make note that Caedus is on the defensive for the entirety of the fight and attempts to flee as soon as he is able to disengage with Luke.
"Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke." - Inferno.
"Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber." - Inferno.
"They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door. Jacen was running." - Inferno.
"Then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness." - Inferno.
It should also be noted that whenever he actually does engage Luke directly, even hindered as Luke is during the entirety of the fight, he gets trashed.
"Landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it." - Inferno.
"He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter." - Inferno.
"Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin. The garrote went completely slack." - Inferno.
This is despite Luke growing progressively more and more injured by Caedus's tricks and the aggravation of his prior wounds.
"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps." - Inferno.
"He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin." - Inferno.
"Holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing." - Inferno.
"Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down." - Inferno.
"A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood." - Inferno.
"Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire." - Inferno.
Hell even with his amped physical strength Caedus can't even keep Luke from forcing his blade to cut into his shoulder.
"Beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder." - Inferno.
So to sum it all up we have an amped Caedus fighting an injured Luke in a setting he is intimately familiar with and still being on the defensive for the entirety of the duel and attempting to run away whenever possible, not to mention Luke being distracted by the presence of Ben during the entirety of the fight.
""Wait!" Ben cried from behind him. "Let me do it!" Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen's lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair's lashing tentacles. Luke shook his head. "I don't think so, Ben." "You have to!" Ben insisted. "I deserve it!" "Deserve it?" Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. "To kill someone?" "You don't understand, "Ben insisted. "It was my fault. If I don't do this..." "I said no, "Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? "You're very confused, Ben. We'll talk about this later." Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free." - Inferno.
His son's presence is even used by Caedus to maneuver him into a trap.
"Luke pressed forward, angling toward the Embrace to keep Jacen away from Ben. Jacen fought his way over anyway, placing himself squarely between Luke and the chair, then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness. Luke Force-leapt after him, knowing that this Jacen- the Jacen he had caught torturing his son-would not hesitate to take Ben hostage... or to kill him. Luke landed half a meter in front of Jacen's lightsaber and quickly beat down his nephew's guard-too quickly. When he did not glimpse a face in the light of his own blade, Luke knew something was wrong and stopped. Which was exactly what Jacen was waiting for, of course." - Inferno.
To address your powerscaling argument I would actually not disagree with you that RotJ Luke is a match for RotJ Vader as a duelist. I also would say that Galen being around that level as a duelist is accurate as well.
Actually, I do. If RotJ Luke was as merciless as, as familiar with the area, and as powerful as Caedus along with holding the same advantages over Luke that Caedus did during the fight, not to mention being amped by his own pain, I believe he could replicate such a performance.
Given you have yet to prove such I'd love to hear why you think that would be.
He withstands illusions on Kashyyyk similar to the ones Luke faced on Dagobah. While we don't know if Luke by Inferno would or would not have I'm simply saying that Galen has experience with dealing with illusions.