Darth Caedus vs. Starkiller

Are you posting from your phone or something?

Originally posted by Syndicate
First off upon reading the passage it appears Caedus couldn't even sense Luke's presence in the Force even when he had prior warning. This further supports Caedus's utter inability to compare to Luke as a force user who has also as I've mentioned casually pinned Caedus to a chair without gesturing or making any movements at all. Another good example exemplifying the gap between Caedus and Luke is force users is this little scene.

Luke had invented a new Force concealment technique. Regardless, we're talking about dueling ability here. In raw power Caedus is explicitly more powerful than Darth Vader, who at least won't get ragdolled by Starkiller -> force a duel.

Luke not only had a bad knee but a chest wound from his duel with Lumiya.

Such wounds typically don't compensate for substantial differences in ability...like the difference between FotJ Luke and RotJ Luke (= RotJ Vader).

And not only only was Caedus clever with his environment he was completely familiar with it as well. Given this fight takes place on neutral ground he won't have the same advantages he held in his fight against Luke.

So? He got past Luke's guard even without those advantages.

It's also specifically mentions that Caedus's pain empowered him making him stronger and faster.

"But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster." - Inferno.

Yes, that's a point in Caedus's favor...

Also you should make note that Caedus is on the defensive for the entirety of the fight and attempts to flee as soon as he is able to disengage with Luke.

Yes, Luke is clearly better than him, but Caedus still gets several good hits in, some of which make Luke scream. Bad knee or no; Darth Maul with a broken ankle was still able to defeat Qui Gon, and a drugged Bane was still able to fend off Zannah. You're focused way too much on the knee.

To address your powerscaling argument I would actually not disagree with you that RotJ Luke is a match for RotJ Vader as a duelist. I also would say that Galen being around that level as a duelist is accurate as well.

Read the actual novelization; Vader thinks Luke is on his level. Galen vs. Vader is close enough for the disparities to not affect my point.

Actually, I do. If RotJ Luke was as merciless as, as familiar with the area, and as powerful as Caedus along with holding the same advantages over Luke that Caedus did during the fight, not to mention being amped by his own pain, I believe he could replicate such a performance.

😆

Dark Empire Luke was dispatched by Wankatine in their first duel far more swiftly than Caedus was by Luke, and Luke's massive growth in power from RotJ was pointed out by like seven different people.

Legends Vader < RotS Anakin as a duelist, and RotS Anakin is probably < base Windu, yet Stover's novelization makes it clear that Windu was utterly helpless against Palpatine and would've died soon after the B-team without vaapad.

And no, I don't think Luke would've made Wankatine scream in pain if he'd had a bad knee, nor do I think that Vader could take Palpatine because he had a stomach cramp.

But the overall point is that Caedus is stronger than Vader in the Force, yet the ratio of his dueling ability to Force ability is much higher than Vader/Starkiller's (whose profiles are more slanted towards Force), so if the latter is in Caedus's favor, the former must be to a vaster degree.

Quote the entirety of my post if you're going to quote it in the first place rather then cherry picking. I said he was holding back only insofar as he didn't want to have to kill Luke if he could help it which is stated in the novel.

"Probably."

It means if he had wanted to he could have simply defeated him at any time. Rather he wanted to turn Luke to the Dark Side and make him an ally. He wanted his son to join him of his own volition thus his whole speech in ESB.

The Plagueis novel says that Plagueis was the most powerful sith lord who had ever lived, a belief Plagueis muses himself. Before Palpatine it's not that difficult to believe that he was.

So you're saying that you believe that Plagueis was stronger then Vitiate? Just to be clear.

Not "cause I say so." But because the comparative feats support that idea and we've had statements and back covers that were inaccurate or just flat out wrong in the past.

"and why/whether Luke was hurt by the hits aside"

What the hell?! He's impaled and stated to be poisoned by it!

"he gets in strikes through Luke's guard."

Name me those instances that weren't circumstantial or just after Luke had been injured.

"In their duel Starkiller couldn't overwhelm Shaak Ti. Advantage: Caedus."

On a light side nexus, after he had just fought through an army of force users, with an entire world aiding Shaak Ti during her fight before his prime. Try harder.

"It's said that his bladework is nearly perfect; when I did martial arts my instructor told me that a few times before. It hardly compares with facing Luke."

Lol. Third person unbiased statements are greater then your martial arts instructor's opinion.

"RotS Anakin > Vader as a duelist in Legends."

Proof? Vader has decades more experience and applies more forms in his lightsaber combat.

"Not the fight with Shaak Ti, which takes place pretty close to his fight with Vader..."

Actually, yes the fight with Shaak Ti. He fights off an army of force sensitive Felucians and their rancors. Not to mention it being on a light side nexus with an entire world aiding her during the actual fight.

"Felucians ran through these narrow streets preparing defenses and mustering their rancor mounts."

"They tapped into the Force as naturally as humans breathed an oxygen-rich atmosphere." - The Force Unleashed.

"The apprentice ducked another bolt of force energy hurled by the Felucian warrior to his right and sent a jagged line of Sith lightning crackling across the ground between them." - The Force Unleashed.

"The shaman he had spared several minutes earlier must have doubled back and healed the warrior's injuries." - The Force Unleashed.

"Dodging their clumsy telekinesis." - The Force Unleashed.

"He had some force resistance, but he couldn't withstand Darth Vader's apprentice for long."

"She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance." - The Force Unleashed.

Also he's stated to have grown in power between his fight with Shaak and his fight with Vader and there's the fact that several months pass between those fights.

All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before. - The Force Unleashed

“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.” - The Force Unleashed

"Actually he does struggle with them,"

Proof? I'm willing to be the only "evidence" you have are cut scenes and gameplay. 😛

"as he does with Maris Brood,"

Lol.

"She continued attacking with increasing desperation, even as he began to drive her back across the mound of bones."

"Raising his left hand, he used his left hand to lift a mound of bones into the air. Rattling and tumbling, rattling and tumbling they swirled around the two of them, picking up speed. Maris didn't know where to look. While she was distracted, he disarmed her with two swift, precise moves."

"Shaak Ti,"

Given I've explained to you all the circumstancial factors leading up to that duel I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here without reposting evidence.

"and a Vader who's weaker than the one who couldn't overwhelm Ben Kenobi."

Vader was likely capable of ragdolling Old Ben but given his speech at the beginning that he had surpassed Kenobi he likely wanted to beat him in a duel to prove his superiority. If not that's no mark against Vader who has plenty of other skill feats to draw on but simply one in favor of Ben.

Lol. He attempted to run away from an injured Luke when amped in an environment that favored him.

"It's explicitly stated that Sidious can "destroy them both"."

Quote?

"He's not comparable to Luke in raw power, no. Neither is Starkiller."

That's where I'd disagree with you. I say Galen is comparable to Luke in raw power.

"I get the feeling that you didn't actually read the passage in question. Luke was poisoned because Caedus out-maneuvered him and threw him into some Vong rack, and there's no reason to believe that Luke's dueling abilities were hindered by emotional instability.

The point is that he managed to get hits in against an enraged Luke without using the torture rack. Starkiller can't penetrate the defenses of Shaak Ti."

He doesn't outmaneuver him. He tricks Luke by holding up his hand as if he's about to shoot force lightning and uses the environment he knows well to his advantage by throwing a Vong torture device instead. Also Luke is definitely hindered by his emotional state. He's so focused on killing Caedus his precognition doesn't even warn him about the torture device about to be slammed into him.

Again, in regards to the Shaak Ti argument the fight was heavily circumstantial as I've explained above.

I didn't say RotJ Vader wasn't his strongest incarnation. Also them falling to Luke is only your opinion.

"Caedus fought Luke and didn't die. It was a no-holds-barred confrontation, and Luke was free to use whatever Force techniques he wanted to. He's fooled Luke with illusions before. He's stronger than Galen."

Luke could have killed him had he wanted to given this was the state Caedus was left in at the end of their fight despite having the advantages I listed above.

"Ben took the glow rod from Luke's belt and activated it. Jacen was crawling across the torture chamber, the hilt of a vibrodagger protruding from between his shoulder blades. His face was inflamed and misshapen, his clothes were smoking and tattered, a hand-sized rectangle of scorched skull showed through his scalp, and still he was stretching a hand toward his lightsaber."

It's really not all that impressive mate.

"Why the **** couldn't you be bothered to quote things?"

*Shrug* General laziness.

"Yes, I do. TPM Palpatine was scared to fight him. Vitiate got knocked on his ass by Revan."

"I'm not going to continue this if you can't be bothered to either use the quote function or sign-post what you're saying. The simple analysis here comes down to power-scaling: Caedus does better against Luke than pre-vaapad Windu was doing against Sidious, and Windu >= Dooku > Vader (in sabers) ~ Galen. Galen dies horribly."

Then don't. 🙂 I'm not going to be bothered to putting in actual effort against a debater like you.

Lol. What the hell kind of logic is that. Windu being overwhelmed by Sidious has nothing to do with skill it has to do with speed considering Sidious blitzed the B team before they could even fully react making your whole scaling argument completely pointless.

Jesus Christ can you quote things normally?

Ah you ninja'ed me before I could post the second part to this.

Have fun getting to all of this, or not. No skin off my scrote.

"Lol. Third person unbiased statements are greater then your martial arts instructor's opinion."

"Not "cause I say so." But because the comparative feats support that idea and we've had statements and back covers that were inaccurate or just flat out wrong in the past. "

^ these quotes stuck out in the sea of utter fail for an interesting case study on cognitive dissonance.

Can I do it mr ellimist 🙂

edit: you edited ur post, but can I still do it 🙂

You also need to work on concealing things; you drop a lot of hints that this is the first time you've actually read the passage, despite having mocked me for apparently not reading it.

I never claimed to have read the passage beforehand. I was going off of ILS's analysis. To be completely honest I thought you were a troll for the most part ( still unsure on that ) and I wasn't expecting an actual debate. I wasn't mocking you for not having read the passage. I was mocking you for having misinterpreted it so badly.

Posts like this where you completely let the point of my actual post fly over your head stand out to me. Likely because you were so eager to pump out another trollish response.

"Read the actual novelization; Vader thinks Luke is on his level. Galen vs. Vader is close enough for the disparities to not affect my point."

This was in response to this.

"To address your powerscaling argument I would actually not disagree with you that RotJ Luke is a match for RotJ Vader as a duelist. I also would say that Galen being around that level as a duelist is accurate as well."

Where I'm actually agreeing with you.

Take the time to actually read my damn posts.

I'll refrain from responding to the rest until you can edit in the responses to the rest of my first post and the entirety of my second. Alert me when you've done so.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
[i]cognitive dissonance.

I knew it.

Originally posted by The Ellimist

cognitive dissonance.

...Zeilon?

Caedus because Starkiller's mind isnt all there, all Caedus needs to do is cast an illusion if Starkillers offensive is to much and bam.

Starkiller is dead.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Caedus because Starkiller's mind isnt all there, all Caedus needs to do is cast an illusion if Starkillers offensive is to much and bam.

Starkiller is dead.

Get out.

What this is Star killer right? TFU2 the clone right?

Or is this Galen Marek?

I took this as TFU Starkiller so my point remains.

It's Galen Marek but even if this was the Starkiller clone he wouldn't go crazy or die because of some illusion.

Yeah his mindset is all over Juno in TFU2 its damn near insane.

Hell Vader even knew Juno was the only way to control him.

If Caedus pulls the same thing he did to Mara Jade, it can leave the clone open to an attack. The illusion wont kill him but can prove to be a major downfall.

But thats if Caedus cant keep up with this variant of Galen Marek.

Caedus doesn't know the clone and we're not even discussing Caedus vs the clone but Caedus vs Marek as of now. Even if it was the clone though how would Caedus know to create an illusion of Juno?

As I said on the first page Galen takes Force, Caedus likely takes sabers and it could probably be argued either way for who takes it all out.

Force Illusions or madness pretty much hits the demons of the person themselves, Caeuds doesnt have to read his mind.

He just needs to attempt it.

Caedus doesnt have to know Juno or the clone to know to cast it when needed.

The Force illusion pretty much does the work, all the effected person needs is will power.

^Thats what I say about the clone.

As for Galen Marek I doubt it would work, because Galen has no demons...no real ones...maybe his father maybe....but it wont detract his game.
As for Galen over Caedus (force) is moot at best.

Hmmmm maybe not....both of them can take a hit.....can Galen survive the injuries Caedus had in his last days?