Ahsoka Tano & Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Tyranus & Darth Maul

Originally posted by carthage
Lets all assume she can deflect lightning when she's never encountered it guys, based off of Beni's sound argument!!

Also he shouldn't have too much issue with Luke, I mean he'll be pressed in a duel but smashing Vader's arms was a pretty oneoff moment when Vader mentioned Leia. He isn't going to break Dooku's arms and Luke also similarly has no defense against lightning or Dooku's TK

And as if Dooku will be able to effectively employ those techniques when he's again, getting his shit pushed in in sabers.

Vader doesn't utilize lightning and you typically don't catch telekinetic attacks with a saber. Ahsoka spent her time primarily killing cannon fodder droids, and the few duels she encountered with darksiders (Ventress/Maul) are both force users that are unable to even use the ability. Why would Anakin teach her about an ability when he was the one who was tasked with fighting Dooku?

Solid counter-reasoning there, I accept your concession.

An adequate response for your retarded claim she knows how to counter an ability she's never even seen. Burden of proof is on you

Eh? Why does he need capable of defeating Vader to beat Dooku? Luke's ability to match Vader's strength and technique is all he needs to hand the Count his ass.

Not really considering Dooku handled Anakin's strength in a pure duel with only slight difficulty at best, and Dooku can break up duel at any point by chaining force attacks like he regularly does to Kenobi.

And as if Dooku will be able to effectively employ those techniques when he's again, getting his shit pushed in in sabers.

Tell that to Obi Wan, Sora Bulq, or any other duelist he regularly annihilates with his force abilities 👆

Originally posted by carthage
Vader doesn't utilize lightning and you typically don't catch telekinetic attacks with a saber. Ahsoka spent her time primarily killing cannon fodder droids, and the few duels she encountered with darksiders (Ventress/Maul) are both force users that are unable to even use the ability.

You claimed that Kanan could defeat PoD Bane, who can use lightning.

You also think that RotS Anakin could beat Zannah, who can use esoteric sith sorcery, the kind that's probably restricted access within the Jedi Archives that Anakin wanted to access so badly.

So as with most debaters, you make a reasonable assumption that sufficiently powerful Force users either have a general ability to resist such attacks, or have probably studied it in some capacity. Ahsoka was powerful enough to press and not get ragdolled by Vader, so she probably crosses that threshold here.

Why would Anakin teach her about an ability when he was the one who was tasked with fighting Dooku?

So obviously Dooku is a gentleman and would avoid using lightning against Ahsoka should they ever meet, for knowledge of Anakin's assumption?

I mean, AotC Obi Wan seemed to know how to block it and Force lightning probably hadn't been witnessed by the Jedi in 1000 years...

Originally posted by carthage
An adequate response for your retarded claim she knows how to counter an ability she's never even seen. Burden of proof is on you.

Neither Kenobi nor Windu had reason to learn to deflect lightning when the Sith were believed extinct. Nor did Kao-Cen Darach when they had been absent for hundreds of years.

All evidence points to it being a general ability that doesn't require experience, but rather a level of training and ability that Ahsoka acquired. That's called logical proof my friend, and the onus is on you to disprove it, rather than parroting the same flawed reasoning.

Not really considering Dooku handled Anakin's strength in a pure duel with only slight difficulty at best, and Dooku can break up duel at any point by chaining force attacks like he regularly does to Kenobi.

Vader is stronger than Anakin, and Luke is both stated to and observably matched his strength. Go figure.

And Kenobi isn't capable of pressing Dooku in the same manner so that's a moot point.

Tell that to Obi Wan, Sora Bulq, or any other duelist he regularly annihilates with his force abilities 👆

Ahsoka didn't "match" Vader's Force augmentation.

I was referring to Luke.

You claimed that Kanan could defeat PoD Bane, who can use lightning.

You also think that RotS Anakin could beat Zannah, who can use esoteric sith sorcery, the kind that's probably restricted access within the Jedi Archives that Anakin wanted to access so badly

I'm basing Kanan beating Bane on him being more skilled, I never denied Bane could kill Kanan on the basis of lightning. Zannah also has a fair shot at beating Anakin with sorcery, its just less likely considering Anakin will kill her in .1 seconds due to being laughably more skilled. Ahsoka also didn't deflect Vader's force abilities she got ko'ed by a single push off the temple side. The fight was primarily a saber duel, not a display of force abilities so her ability to duel with Vader doesn't disprove the fact she was sent flying and ko'ed by a push from Vader. Ahsoka has done nothing to suggest she wouldn't be annihilated by Vader's force abilities if she didn't maintain pressure on a duel, her saber skills are completely unrelated to her ability to defend from his force attacks.

So obviously Dooku is a gentleman and would avoid using lightning against Ahsoka should they ever meet, for knowledge of Anakin's assumption?

I mean, AotC Obi Wan seemed to know how to block it and Force lightning probably hadn't been witnessed by the Jedi in 1000 years

Kenobi learned to deflect the attack after Anakin went charging like a retard into Dooku's lightning (which was unknown to Jedi). So Kenobi had learned from Anakin's mistake per the AOTC Novelization:

Kenobi had witnessed Anakin get taken out and learned to use his saber and Ahsoka has no knowledge of FL at all, the two situations are completely different per the quotes. There isn't any basis for Ahsoka having any knowledge or counter to lightning

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was referring to Luke.

Hmm, fair enough. Luke's an exception, though.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm basing Kanan beating Bane on him being more skilled, I never denied Bane could kill Kanan on the basis of lightning.

How does Kanan's skill outweigh Bane's lightning, which obviously outranges his bladework, unless if that skill somehow facilitates being able to defend against it?

Zannah also has a fair shot at beating Anakin with sorcery, its just less likely considering Anakin will kill her in .1 seconds due to being laughably more skilled.

Sorcery and lightning are both ranged attacks, which is presumably why you're weighing the former so heavily here.

Ahsoka also didn't deflect Vader's force abilities she got ko'ed by a single push off the temple side. The fight was primarily a saber duel, not a display of force abilities so her ability to duel with Vader doesn't disprove the fact she was sent flying and ko'ed by a push from Vader. Ahsoka has done nothing to suggest she wouldn't be annihilated by Vader's force abilities if she didn't maintain pressure on a duel, her saber skills are completely unrelated to her ability to defend from his force attacks.

If Vader could've ragdolled Ahsoka, why didn't he just do that from the start? Yes, he was able to get a Force push in - she likely let her guard down or was too preoccupied with defending against his attacks.

Kenobi learned to deflect the attack after Anakin went charging like a retard into Dooku's lightning (which was unknown to Jedi). So Kenobi had learned from Anakin's mistake per the AOTC

Kenobi had witnessed Anakin get taken out and learned to use his saber and Ahsoka has no knowledge of FL at all, the two situations are completely different per the quotes. There isn't any basis for Ahsoka having any knowledge or counter to lightning [/B]

😆 So all you need to do to be able to block Force lightning is to see it once and figure "maybe I should hold up my lightsaber"? And you don't think Ahsoka has ever seen a video recreation of Force lightning, learned about it from talking with Anakin, heard about its name and guessed what it was, or otherwise have any knowledge of it? How the f*ck is that possible? Anakin never guessed that it was worth the eight seconds needed to prepare Ahsoka against Dooku's lightning by saying "hold your lightsaber up" if she happened to run into him (and gosh, I wonder why that might happen)?

Even if she had mysteriously never even heard of the idea of Force lightning despite fighting a war against the Dark Lord of the Sith, putting her saber out is probably her instinctive reaction to someone pointing their hand out and her precog telling her she was about to get hit by something.

Kenobi learned to deflect the attack after Anakin went charging like a retard into Dooku's lightning (which was unknown to Jedi). So Kenobi had learned from Anakin's mistake per the AOTC Novelization:

Kenobi had witnessed Anakin get taken out and learned to use his saber and Ahsoka has no knowledge of FL at all, the two situations are completely different per the quotes. There isn't any basis for Ahsoka having any knowledge or counter to lightning

Anakin was gimped by Dooku's lightning because he was evidently stupid and his training incomplete, Kenobi was not, so he was not.

Though the idea that Kenobi could adapt to Dooku's Sith lighting so quickly only without prior knowledge of the power, proves it an intuitive application of powers one already possesses, rather than a technique you have to be instructed in.

Why would Ahsoka be incapable of adaptation and intuition in this regard, when, as Eliminist points out, she'll very likely see it coming? Seems like you disproved your own argument there.

Lel, you continue to assume it's a specific ability that requires experience, when that's clearly not the case, and continue to fail to prove their is any correlation between the two.

Neither Kenobi nor Windu had reason to learn to deflect lightning when the Sith were believed extinct. Nor did Kao-Cen Darach when they had been absent for hundreds of years.

Kenobi learned to deflect lightning when Anakin was taken out by Dooku's lightning, I posted the quotes. Also Kao likely learned to deflect lightning in a similar fashion seeing as of 3:07 in the Return trailer we see Satele get sent flying by Vindican's lightning, Kao could've very well used the same method of learning as Kenobi did. Obviously they had to have seen it happen to their student, derp

All evidence points to it being a general ability that doesn't require experience, but rather a level of training and ability that Ahsoka both acquired and received. That's called logical proof my friend, and the onus is on you to disprove it, rather than parroting the same flawed reasoning.

Kao and Anakin both saw lightning when their students were hit by it, obviously using their sabers to deflect it. Experience=their knowledge to deflect it.

You mean when Anakin was emotionally unbalanced, without extenuating circumstances he was left exhausted by Skywalker's attacks, and when Anakin became enraged he was utterly obliterated.

Vader is stronger than Anakin, and Luke is both stated to and observably matched his strength. Go figure.

Skywalker was calling fully on his potential in his prior duel in ROTS, in TCW under normal circumstances Dooku has fought him off as per usual

And Kenobi isn't capable of pressing Dooku in the same manner so that's a moot point.

That has nothing to do with the fact he generally removes Kenobi with the force instead of outdueling him. Luke also has no defense against lightning or telekinetic attacks, try to keep up here. Luke doesn't normally use his overwhelming force power to beat down guards, the situation with Vader was a unique one

Because Kenobi, Bulq and scrubs have Force feats that compare to matching Vader's Force augmentation, and are capable of pressing Dooku in sabers to any comparable degree.

Because a strict saber duel between Vader and Luke totally disproves the notion Vader wouldnt've oneshot Luke with telekinesis, right? Lol. Force augmentation and force defenses are two completely different things, Dooku also uses lightning which Luke in the film got downed by. Try again

Ahsoka: Sky guy, what happened the first time you met Dooku?

Anakin: Oh, I charged at him like an idiot and got electrocuted and tossed aside like a punk.

Ahsoka: electrocuted?

Anakin: sorry, I can't tell you any more. The Jedi strictly forbid padawans from learning the "hold your lightsaber up relatively perpendicularly from your face to stop the blue lightning" technique, and you know me, I always follow the rules over helping my friends.

Ahsoka: Touche.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm sorry you'll have to be more clear, I'm not seeing how that can be inferred from the text without making assumptions. Especially when in the novelisation Dooku doesn't even employ lightning against Kenobi. 😬

Anakin was gimped by Dooku's lightning because he was evidently stupid and his training incomplete, Kenobi was not, so he was not.

Though the idea that Kenobi could adapt to Dooku's Sith lighting so quickly only without prior knowledge of the power, proves it an intuitive application of powers one already possesses, rather than a technique you have to be instructed in.

Why would Ahsoka be incapable of adaptation and intuition in this regard, when, as Eliminist points out, she'll very likely see it coming? Seems like you disproved your own argument there.

What does "intuitive ability" have to do with the fact that Kenobi saw Anakin got taken out and by logical inference would've learned to raise a defense? The text already said that lightning was unknown to Jedi prior to Anakin being hit. Anakin didn't have any "intuitive application of raising his saber" and was KOED, and Kenobi deflected it in the film. This isn't hard to figure out

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Ahsoka: Sky guy, what happened the first time you met Dooku?

Anakin: Oh, I charged at him like an idiot and got electrocuted and tossed aside like a punk.

Ahsoka: electrocuted?

Anakin: sorry, I can't tell you any more. The Jedi strictly forbid padawans from learning the "hold your lightsaber up relatively perpendicularly from your face to stop the blue lightning" technique, and you know me, I always follow the rules over helping my friends.

Ahsoka: Touche.

The text says lightning was unknown to Jedi before Anakin got hit by it. Apparently Kenobi is obviously too retarded to defend himself based off of Anakin getting hit. He obviously would've run into it because of "intuitive applications of powers" and not the fact his padawan got layed out before, right?

😂

Originally posted by carthage
The text says lightning was unknown to Jedi before Anakin got hit by it. Apparently Kenobi is obviously too retarded to defend himself based off of Anakin getting hit. He obviously would've run into it because of "intuitive applications of powers" and not the fact his padawan got layed out before, right?

😂

😐

This reply is a fascinating case of epic failure. It manages to both spectacularly miss the point and not even hit its misguided target well.

1. The text is comically outdated/wrong - Yoda, for example, knew how to absorb lightning with tutaminus. Of course he did - he had access to the most comprehensive collection of sith holocrons ever. Force lightning is repeatedly referenced as a well known dark side power that the Council expressively forbid Jedi from using. The AotC novel was just written before the backstory of the Jedi/Sith had been cohesively fleshed out.

2. Even if it were true that none of the Jedi knew what Force lightning was as of AotC, Ahsoka by Rebels sure has f*ck does, given that her master had encountered it firsthand multiple times, knew Ahsoka might run into Dooku, and would have taken the eight seconds needed to say "hold out your lightsaber."

3. Even if that were incorrect for some asinine reason, if Dooku holds his hands out and Ahsoka's precog warns her of an imminent attack, holding her lightsaber out would be her intuitive reaction. That Anakin was charging like a dumb idiot doesn't mean an older, wiser Ahsoka would.

Seriously, the notion that Ahsoka wouldn't have even known of the existence of Force lightning, like Anakin and Obi Wan were conspiring to keep it hidden from her, is absurd and I do wonder if you're trying to troll.

Again show me any evidence that she even knows about the ability, that she was ever taught and or instructed by Yoda or Anakin about it, or was given any sort of hint about how to defend against it, and I'll happily concede the point.

I've provided counter examples, neither you nor Beni have produced any sort of evidence. But have at it and continue making **** all effort to counter my arguments with anything substantive 👆

You clearly suck at analyzing and synthesizing data. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, and this commonly used cliche has its merit. If we have to figure out what someone's proficiency in X category is but lack direct observations, we do not assume an absence of it. Rather we, try to consider the probability distribution of possible levels and kinds of proficiencies based on the contextual evidence that we have. We try to create a theory of what their abilities are that best fits with the available evidence and creates the most plausible story.

In this case, we have access to several data points and simple deductive arguments to support the idea that Ahsoka knowing about lightning is a far more likely and plausible possibility than her being ignorant of it. Likewise, we can reasonably infer that Leia goes pee, despite having never seen her do so.

I hope you don't employ your idiotic logic in your everyday life. When you get mad at that 300 pound linebacker, I hope you don't punch him in the face and assume that he doesn't know how to thrust his arm in a motion towards your face because you've never seen him do it before. 🙄

Of course, I'm pretty sure you're going to repeat your evidentiary standard verbatim without bothering to respond to my specific criticisms of it, given that's what you just did.

Originally posted by carthage
Again show me any evidence that she even knows about the ability, that she was ever taught and or instructed by Yoda or Anakin about it, or was given any sort of hint about how to defend against it, and I'll happily concede the point.

Generally you're supposed to support your claims with evidence, and hell even a quote to suggest that the Jedi regularly taught their students to combat force abilities like lightning from a canon sourcebook would help your case.

Again any sort of proof would be nice, until then I'll happily take your concession while you try to save face.

Carthage: You need to demonstrate X!
Me: that makes no sense because of Y and Z!
Carthage: You need to demonstrate X!
Me: What about reasons Y and Z I just gave for why your burden of proof isn't-
Carthage: Carthage: You need to demonstrate X!

You obviously don't think that Leia goes pee, or that the scientific method exists, given that its entire purpose is to use past data points to make predictions about untested events.

Then again, this is a more complicated concept in epistemology than I've seen you grasp with to date, so it doesn't surprise me that you lack the intellect to understand me.