Understanding Exar Kun's spirit.

We can't all constantly talk about sodemy.

First of all you claim that Exar Kun gained extra power from the ritual, when we know exactly what it is he did with it:

There, where he first won their loyalty by slaying the wyrm, Kun used Sadow's ancient techniques and the life energy of every Massassi to leave his body and become one with the dark side.
Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Then you make the claim that somehow a spirit is capable of channeling more power in death than in life, which is so heavily contradicted I can't begin to see how you'd make such an unfounded claim:

"Freedon Nadd, a student of Naga Sadow, learned how to transcend the grave, just like Sadow."
―The Official Star Wars Factfile 90

So Exar Kun like Freedon Nadd, trascended his death using Naga Sadow's teachings on the matter.

Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun therefore share similar properties as spirits and in function, all of them sought to return human form, not unlike Karness Muur, speaking of whom.

Exar Kun is stated to be the most powerful ancient Sith Lord:

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he_[Exar Kun]_was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.
- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Cementing him above the likes of Karness Muur, whom as a Sith spirit posessing Celeste Morne, was a superior to Darth Krayt:

On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit.
Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt

He also possesses the power to stop Darth Vader in conbat:

"...She doesn't have the strength to stop Vader. But Karness Muur does."
Source: Dark Times 11: Vector: Part 5

Even he sought the power to return, power inadequate in Celeste Morne but present in the Skywalker line:

"The Sith from lifetimes past reaches out with the Force and sees that his suspicions are correct. There is power here. Great power, unrealized. Power that could set him free."
Source: Dark Times 11: Vector: Part 5_

Just like Freedon Nadd desired:

"Nonsense! I am hungry to reacquire flesh and life and... Power!"
-Freedon Nadd, Tales of the Jedi Omnibus Volume 2

And Naga Sadow before him:

Sadow was even powerful enough to stave off the inevitable. He placed himself in a near-death slumber, which he remained in for hundreds of years, waiting until someone would come to take his place….
Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part 1

Why? Because just like Exar Kun, they are all more powerful when they were alive, not as spirits as you seem to be suggesting:

I hope you are having a nice holiday, I was hoping if you could tell me whether Exar Kun was more powerful when he was alive or as a spirit?

Thanks for your time, happy holidays.

That was an email I sent to Tom Veitch, one of Kun's co-creators, at his personal email address [email protected]. This was his reply:

More powerful when he was alive! _ :-)

Merry Xmas!

So there is no dispute, Exar Kun as a living Sith Lord was more powerful than he was as a spirit, at any point. I was going to write out a full bodied reply, but decided this could settle the matter once and for all.

As far as Exar Kun not being capable of defeating Ulic with his powers goes, that is probably due to the fact that they were dueling, y'know, where you use melee weapons or lightsabers to settle a contest, not the Force.

After a long duel, Qel-Droma and Exar Kun joined forces; Exar Kun as the undisputed Dark Lord of the Sith, Qel-Droma as his apprentice.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic - Timeline - The Exar Kun War

Oh and he was infact very much pre-prime, whilst he had already gained the full power of the dark side:

When Kun destroyed the creature with an ancient Sith amulet, he won the approval of Nadd, the full strength of the dark side, and the worship of the Massassi.
-The Dark Side Sourcebook

He had yet to gain the Dark Holocron, which made him more powerful:

Locked within its recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Tales of the Jedi

Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.
- Tales of the Jedi

Then he started dabbling deeper into Sith alchemy and had gained 'extreme', 'enormous' powers:

An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies.
- The New Essential Chronology

"Though Kun had enormous power, it seems the key was that the other Jedi combined their might."
-Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force

Infact Exar Kun in his prime is undoubtedly the most powerful Sith and Jedi of his time:

She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, clash in mortal combat. One will be awarded the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, the most feared and powerful force in the galaxy.
-Tales of the Jedi

So nobody, not Ulic Qel-Droma, Thon, Odan-Urr, or anybody else even approached Exar Kun in power in his prime. He proves this when he kills Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr easily, the former is stated to have stood no chance against him and the latter utterly failed to sever Kun from the Force, getting one-shotted in return.

Vodo having been powerful enough to disarm Ulic of his lightsaber and temporarily cut him off from the Force.

Odan-Urr having been capable of communing telepathically with 10,000 Jedi simultaneously without any apparent sign of strain on his part.

Not even Master Thon could approach Exar Kun, Master Thon who cleansed Ambria, the most powerful concentration of dark side energy on Jedi record and trapped that power in Lake Nath.

So no Beniboybling, Exar Kun was most definitely more powerful when he was alive and in his time was unparalelled in power, even more powerful than the likes of Freedon Nadd or Karness Muur were.

As for spirit Kun making Kyp Durron look feeble by comparison:

He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.
- Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

It is clear what happens; Kyp Durron uses the cosmic focal point of the temple to search for the Suncrusher, then Exar Kun's power aided him and made Kyp's previous amplified effort seem feeble by comparison.

AP pwned the opposition here. Good work.

Not the first time that Beni have made questionable assumptions.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Cementing him above the likes of Karness Muur, whom as a Sith spirit posessing Celeste Morne, was a superior to Darth Krayt:

Above Vitiate as well. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by ares834
Above Vitiate as well. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by AncientPower
First of all you claim that Exar Kun gained extra power from the ritual, when we know exactly what it is he did with it:

Then you make the claim that somehow a spirit is capable of channeling more power in death than in life, which is so heavily contradicted I can't begin to see how you'd make such an unfounded claim:

So Exar Kun like Freedon Nadd, trascended his death using Naga Sadow's teachings on the matter.

Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun therefore share similar properties as spirits and in function, all of them sought to return human form, not unlike Karness Muur, speaking of whom.

Exar Kun is stated to be the most powerful ancient Sith Lord:

Cementing him above the likes of Karness Muur, whom as a Sith spirit posessing Celeste Morne, was a superior to Darth Krayt:

He also possesses the power to stop Darth Vader in conbat:

"...She doesn't have the strength to stop Vader. But Karness Muur does."
Source: Dark Times 11: Vector: Part 5

Even he sought the power to return, power inadequate in Celeste Morne but present in the Skywalker line:

"The Sith from lifetimes past reaches out with the Force and sees that his suspicions are correct. There is power here. Great power, unrealized. Power that could set him free."
Source: Dark Times 11: Vector: Part 5_

Just like Freedon Nadd desired:

"Nonsense! I am hungry to reacquire flesh and life and... Power!"
-Freedon Nadd, Tales of the Jedi Omnibus Volume 2

And Naga Sadow before him:

Sadow was even powerful enough to stave off the inevitable. He placed himself in a near-death slumber, which he remained in for hundreds of years, waiting until someone would come to take his place….
Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part 1

Why? Because just like Exar Kun, they are all more powerful when they were alive, not as spirits as you seem to be suggesting:

That was an email I sent to Tom Veitch, one of Kun's co-creators, at his personal email address [email protected]. This was his reply:

So there is no dispute, Exar Kun as a living Sith Lord was more powerful than he was as a spirit, at any point. I was going to write out a full bodied reply, but decided this could settle the matter once and for all.

As far as Exar Kun not being capable of defeating Ulic with his powers goes, that is probably due to the fact that they were dueling, y'know, where you use melee weapons or lightsabers to settle a contest, not the Force.

Oh and he was infact very much pre-prime, whilst he had already gained the full power of the dark side:

He had yet to gain the Dark Holocron, which made him more powerful:

Then he started dabbling deeper into Sith alchemy and had gained 'extreme', 'enormous' powers:

Infact Exar Kun in his prime is undoubtedly the most powerful Sith and Jedi of his time:

So nobody, not Ulic Qel-Droma, Thon, Odan-Urr, or anybody else even approached Exar Kun in power in his prime. He proves this when he kills Vodo-Siosk Baas and Odan-Urr easily, the former is stated to have stood no chance against him and the latter utterly failed to sever Kun from the Force, getting one-shotted in return.

Vodo having been powerful enough to disarm Ulic of his lightsaber and temporarily cut him off from the Force.

Odan-Urr having been capable of communing telepathically with 10,000 Jedi simultaneously without any apparent sign of strain on his part.

Not even Master Thon could approach Exar Kun, Master Thon who cleansed Ambria, the most powerful concentration of dark side energy on Jedi record and trapped that power in Lake Nath.

So no Beniboybling, Exar Kun was most definitely more powerful when he was alive and in his time was unparalelled in power, even more powerful than the likes of Freedon Nadd or Karness Muur were.

As for spirit Kun making Kyp Durron look feeble by comparison:

It is clear what happens; Kyp Durron uses the cosmic focal point of the temple to search for the Suncrusher, then Exar Kun's power aided him and made Kyp's previous amplified effort seem feeble by comparison.

^ this is fairly convincing tbh

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
AP pwned the opposition here. Good work.

Not the first time that Beni have made questionable assumptions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry, hon. Vitiate was not known back then and confirmed to be more powerful in sources covering Exar Kun.

Got a quote? Because everything I've see has said it after Exar was already dead.

Vitiate has indeed been labeled the most powerful sith and Force user up till his time, presumably not including the Ones/etc.

It seems convincing that Sidious > Vitiate > Exar Kun > Karness Murr > Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bane.

Granted, this is also pre-prime Vader, who goes through at least two power-ups (-> ESB and -> RotJ), and the Murr > Vader chain isn't clear; it's just stated that she could defeat him.

If we accept that living Exar > nexus-spirit Exar (which seems to be the reasonable interpretation), then his owning of Luke might put him really close to Palpatine. At the same time though he still had a nexus-amped Kyp Durron to help him, and frankly JA Luke consistently seems weaker than his DE incarnation.

This is...most interesting indeed.

What source? It better not have been an in-universe source like the TOR encyclopedia. And what was the exact quote?

Hell, Exar Kun is implied to be as strong as ol Palps in the first place.

"If he could face this final test, Luke would know that Kyp had passed through the fire of his testing---tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured."
-Jedi Academy Volume 3: Champions of the Force

Originally posted by The Ellimist
frankly JA Luke consistently seems weaker than his DE incarnation.

This is...most interesting indeed.

He is stated to get stronger with every mission, implying JA Luke > DE Luke, and then some. Luke seems less powerful because he grows wiser and thus is more conservative with his powers, which is a moot point given Luke used every single defensive technique he knew in an attempt to defend against Kun/Kyp and they were all utterly futile gestures, as stated in text.

Well given we already know Exar Kun isn't as powerful as Palpatine, I guess we can throw another one up to Luke's glorious opinion.

Yeh, that is fairly obvious, but it and the troves of other similar statements imply that Kun is supposed to be approaching Palps.

Like needing to drain an entire race of people just to an hero?

He is specifically noted to have not taken the time to learn the ritual properly because he didn't have time, he also intended to travel the galaxy and regroup elsewhere, the Wall of Light prevented that though.

Unfortunately AP's response appears to be almost entirely a red herring. mmm

You keep telling yourself that.

Just making an observation dear. 🙂

Observe as you will.