Understanding Exar Kun's spirit.

It's almost as though character opinions only matter when they refer to SWTOR.

OK, time to address AP's response. 🙂

So now AP seems to be exclusively arguing that Exar Kun is more powerful than he was as a spirit. But guess what? I agree, and never argued otherwise. 😂

AP, your original claim was that:

Exar Kun in his living prime is clearly fully capable of replicating all the powers he displayed in Jedi Academy, but with even greater magnitude.

These feats include dominating Master Luke Skywalker with Force lightning; Force choking the melded Jedi Streen, Brakiss, Dorsk 81, Cilghal, Tionne, Kam, Jaina, Jacen and Kirani Ti; Summoning vortexes capable of launching multiple Jedi thousands of feet into the air; Telekinetically manipulating the circuitry of the Suncrusher whilst it was stuck inside the core of the sun Yavin Prime; Mentally manipulating Kyp Durron from across the galaxy; and senses capable of becoming one with an entire solar system.

It really doesn't matter Exar Kun wasn't at full strength when he recovered the Sun Crusher, or put Luke into a coma, because not only was he still "very powerful", but more importantly he had the "full might" of Kyp Durron, a supposed Vader-tier Force user, channelling his power through a cosmic focal point, at his disposal.

Nor does it matter Exar Kun wasn't at full strength when he possessed Streen. He still had the Jedi's Alter Enviroment genius at his fingertips, who too may have been amped by the temple.

Altogether what you've presented doesn't alter the fact that even if weakened, Kun was nonetheless able to realise powers in arguable excess of what he achieved in life by exploiting the powers of others.

So I'd start working on that fully bodied replied if I were you. 😉

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AP also seems to have misunderstood my point regarding spirits. So let me be clear. At no point have, and did I argue, that Exar as a spirit had more power in the Force than he had in life. Rather that he had a greater capacity to wield the Force that he had in life (and moreover, that he was capable of augmenting that capacity to unnatural degrees). To help you in comprehending that, the definition of capacity:

I'm not talking about the power Kun at the time possessed, I'm talking about his upper limit. The power he had at his fingertips at the time is really irrelevant. What is important is that:
[list=1][*]As AP kindly pointed out, Exar Kun's relationship with the dark side was seemingly strengthened by the Massassi ritual, literally stating he became "one with it."

[*]Without the limitations of the mortal coil (i.e. midichlorians, etc.), there is logically no limit to the power Exar Kun could accrue, given the time and resources.[/list=1] (And you can find plenty of proof of this, for example look up Dorsk 81, or alternatively the Outlander's experiences when being possessed by Valkorion. Or read my blog.)

Therefore, when the Jedi Academy sourcebook refers to the powers Kun could achieve, that he had the capacity to achieve, with "the energy needed to fuel his disembodied will", for the above reasons, and just as importantly the other reasons I have raised, we shouldn't assume that would equate to the natural limits of his power in life. When, again, we've every reason to believe he had the capacity to move past that given the sufficient resources.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's wrap this up.

As far as Exar Kun not being capable of defeating Ulic with his powers goes, that is probably due to the fact that they were dueling, y'know, where you use melee weapons or lightsabers to settle a contest, not the Force.

Be serious. Exar Kun engaged Ulic in a no-holds-barred lightsaber engagement, with the intent to kill, that was stated to have been "too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand", in a contest that could have "gone on for hours" that "would ultimately end with both men dead."

That proves three things. 1. That Ulic was able to match Kun in Force augmentation and stamina 2. That Ulic was sufficiently powerful for Kun not to disregard him with a Force attack as he did Aleema and 3. That Ulic was sufficiently powerful to prevent Kun from overcoming him with his powers full stop, seeing as he had the ability to ensure the pair's mutual destruction.

Oh and he was infact very much pre-prime, whilst he had already gained the full power of the dark side

He had yet to gain the Dark Holocron, which made him more powerful

Then he started dabbling deeper into Sith alchemy and had gained 'extreme', 'enormous' powers

As for that second statement, its neither implicit nor explicit that he didn't possess that "enormous" before, if anything the former quote suggests otherwise.

As for spirit Kun making Kyp Durron look feeble by comparison:

It is clear what happens; Kyp Durron uses the cosmic focal point of the temple to search for the Suncrusher, then Exar Kun's power aided him and made Kyp's previous amplified effort seem feeble by comparison.

Yeah, not seeing much compelling evidence to divorce Kyp's raw power from the equation.

FP Exar > Spirit Exar > Luke > Palpatine confirmed

Care to provide actual evidence for your conclusion rather than blind speculation on the properties of spirits? Because I'm seeing absolutely no evidence proving anything you've just said.

First of all, it was Exar Kun's power that defeated Luke Skywalker:

The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Suncrusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master.
- Corran Horn, Jedi vs Sith The Essential Guide to the Force.

Secondly, this statement makes it clear that none of the students Kun converted were strong enough to provide him enough energy for all of Kun's power:

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

This proves undisputedly that even when Kun drained Gantoris and had Kyp Durron's power, he was not at full power.

Again you keep arguing that he wouldn't attain physical form given the power he required, when that is exactly what he wanted to do:

Infact, after Exar Kun destroyed Luke Skywalker, he had only Streen to draw power from, Gantoris was long dead and Kyp had traversed the galaxy:

She supposes that the students have a chance of defeating him, since Kun no longer has his servants to draw power from, he[Streen] is his only source.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Reflecting that Exar Kun by the end was infact very weak, and yet managed this incredibly impressive feat:

As his eyes adjusted, Streen saw that all twelve of the Jedi candidates were limned with the faintest sheen of an iridescent blue glow that grew brighter as the new Jedi converged around Exar Kun.

"Even joined together, you are too weak to fight me!" the shadowy man said.

Streen felt his throat constrict, his windpipe close. He choked, unable to breathe. The black silhouette turned, staring at those who resisted him. The Jedi trainees grasped their throats, straining to breathe, their faces darkening with the effort. Kun's shadow expanded, growing darker and more powerful.

He towered over Streen. "Streen, take your lightsaber and finish these weaklings. Then I will allow you to live."

Streen heard the blood sing in his ears as his body strained for oxygen. The rushing sound reminded him of blowing wind, gale-force storms. Wind. Air. He grasped the wind with his Jedi powers, moving the air itself and making it flow into his lungs, past Kun's invisible stranglehold. Cool, sweet oxygen filled him, and Streen exhaled and inhaled again. Reaching out with his power, he did the same for all the other Jedi students, nudging air into their lungs—helping them breathe, helping them grow stronger.
- Star Wars Jedi Academy Trilogy Champions of the Force

Noting that they were empowering each other:

Exar Kun taunted me, and it was a struggle to resist the anger he wanted to bring out in me. In the years I’d spent as a prospector at Bespin, I’d come to believe that I wasn’t very comfortable around people, but I felt empowered by the arrival of my fellow trainees, who included Kirana Ti, Kam Solusar, Tionne, Cilghal, Dorsk 81, and Brakiss. They’d been waiting for the right moment to enter the chamber and catch Exar Kun off guard. Present, too, were Jacen and Jaina, who stayed close to Cilghal’s side.
-Streen, Jedi vs Sith The Essential Guide to the Force

The Jedi trainees stepped closer together, cinching the circle around the trapped shadowy form. Streen held the lightsaber high, whilst across the circle Kirani Ti raised hers to a striking position. The nebulous glow around the new Jedi Knights grew brighter, a luminous fog that joined them in an unbroken ring, a solid band of light forged by the power of the Force within them.

----

The shadow lunged toward Dorsk 81. The cloned Jedi candidate flinched, but the other trainees gave him strength.

-----

The glow continued to brighten as the synergy between the trainees grew more powerful, weaving threads to reinforce their weak spots and emphasize their strengths.
-Jedi Academy Volume 3 Champions of the Force

Also note that the Solo twins were being guided by the ghost of Luke Skywalker, who just previously gifted his full skills in lightsaber combat to Jacen:

Without hesitation the boy picked up the lightsaber handle. It was as long as his forearm.
"Don't know how," Jacen said to Luke.
I'll show you," Luke said. "Let me guide you.... let me fight with you."

----

But even Cilghal's greatest fears did not prepare her for the astonishing sight that greeted her as she entered the grand audience chamber.
Little Jacen held a lightsaber in his hand with all the grace and confidence of a master swordsman.

----

Cilghal rushed to Jacen just as he calmly replaced the lightsaber beside Luke's motionless form. She grabbed him, hugged him, and then stared in awe at the little boy. Only moments ago this not-quite-three-year-old child had fought like a legendary lightsaber duelist.
-Jedi Academy Volume 3 Champions of the Force

Also keep in mind that Jacen and Jaina's (now elder) brother Anakin, had been powerful enough as a fetus that through a similar meld he amplified Luke Skywalker's powers enough to defeat the reborn Emperor Palpatine in combat.

Whereas the combined force Exar Kun faced was Cilghal, Streen, Kirani Ti, Brakiss, Jacen, Jaina, Dorsk 81, Kam Solusar and Tionne Solusar, with the spirits of Luke Skywalker and Vodo-Siosk Baas melded together.

Let us take a look at some individual feats.

Streen:

Buffeting a Leviathan.
Blocking streams of Lava.

Brakiss:

An imperial inquisitor, shortly after capable of manipulating solar flares in a similar manner to what Naga Sadow did.
A year or two later, fighting Luke Skywalker so well, Luke would be exhausted.

Cilghal:

Master of healing arts, including grievous injuries.

Kam Solusar:

A Jedi that fought beside Luke Skywalker throughout Dark Empire, facing off inquisitors such as Sedriss.

Kirani Ti:

One of Dathomir's most powerful young witches

Dorsk 81:

A powerful Jedi clone who would later go on to telekinetically hurtle over a dozen Star Destroyers halfway across the Yavin system, whilst amped by a similar meld.

Just a small run down of the kinds of power we are talking about here, noting that by this point, they'd all nearly achieved mastery of Luke's teachings:

[QUOTE]Master Skywalker was proud of them. He said that the trainees were reaching the limits of the techniques he himself could teach them.
-Jedi Academy Volume 3 Champions of the Force[QUOTE]

So even without Kyp Durron, Gantoris or Streen, whilst his powers exhausted downing Luke Skywalker, Exar Kun at one of his weakest points as a spirit, is choking out an entire group of powerful Jedi, to the point they were fading out, and is only stopped by one of the most powerful melds we've ever seen Jedi perform. One that would later be strong enough to telekinetically hurtle a fleet of Star Destroyers, a vastly more impressive feat than anything Starkiller ever did.

But yeh, limits and capscities and amps, all down to Kyp Durron, sure thing Beni, sure thing.

Damn it edit, work.

Uh, no they’re not. Sorry you don't have a definitive absolute stament that Vitiate is greater. Something Exar, by contrast, actually has.

Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia also represents [in-universe] point-of-view of developments in the lore:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Ever bothered to read disclaimers of the sourcebooks? 😂

TOR Encyclopedia is a more recent work and it promotes Vitiate as the most powerful Force-user ever. Your criticism is futile.

Few sourcebooks represent [out-of-universe] point of view of developments in the lore. They are officially marketed as such. Want some examples?

Because they were cut off from the rest of the galaxy? And Revan actually came into contact with the Empire so…

It is foolish to assume that the Sith of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire were oblivious to developments in the galaxy at large. They dispatched agents to different worlds across the galaxy (outside the domain of the Empire) to learn about developments outside the Empire. They were responsible for orchestrating Mandalorians Wars and Jedi Civil War after failure of Exar Kun.

In-fact, some of them made arrangements for invading the galaxy centuries earlier than the Great Galactic War but the Emperor foiled such plans.

And had you actually read the comic you would realize she did this by turning Stormtroopers into Rakghouls not by being more powerful or a greater combatant than Vader.

Yes, I have checked the novel. What is portrayed on-screen doesn't refutes the explicit revelation that Karness Muur had the strength to tackle Darth Vader.

Karness Muur wasn't restricted to turning Stormtroopers into Rakghouls. He had a number of offensive options under his belt including traditional powers such as Force Lightning.

For example:

You see that? When Celeste Morne would activate the artifact, Karness Muur would take control of her and use her as a vessel to affect the external environment afterwards.

---

I accept your concession in advance. 😮‍💨

^ oh noez, Karness Murr knew "traditional powers such as Force lightning", he's obviously far above Vader. 🙄

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Every novel represents [in-universe] point-of-view of developments in the lore. Many sourcebooks also represent the same.

[B]Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia also represents [in-universe] point-of-view of developments in the lore:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Ever bothered to read disclaimers of the sourcebooks? 😂

TOR Encyclopedia is a more recent work and it promotes Vitiate as the most powerful Force-user ever. Your criticism is futile.

Few sourcebooks represent [out-of-universe] point of view of developments in the lore. They are officially marketed as such. Want some examples?[/B]

Yes, I know the TOR encyclopedia is an in-universe source. Thanks for parroting what I've said in this very thread. And the fact that you point that out only further undermines your argument.

So unless you have something stating The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is in-universe then I'm not really sure what you are arguing here...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So how did they perceive the Emperor's Wrath as second coming of Exar Kun?

It's almost as if by that time they had been reintegrated into the galaxy for decades...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
🙄

Yes, I have checked the novel. What is portrayed on-screen doesn't refutes the explicit revelation that Karness Muur had the strength to tackle Darth Vader.

In that case, you would know that Morne quote you used t argue Muur > Vader wasn't referring to Muur being more powerful but rather that he had access to a power that could allow him to defeat Vader via turning the Stormtroopers into Rakghouls.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I accept your concession in advance. 😮‍💨

For what? You didn't refute a single one of my points. You go off on unnecessary tangents that have nothing to do with what we are arguing about and even undermine your own sources.

On the claim that Exar Kun couldn't defeat Ulic with his powers, the fight was a duel, it wasn't a Force contest nor was it ever implied Force powers were party to their confrontation:

Both Jedi are master swordsman-- neither can claim an advantage with the lightsaber!
-Tales of the Jedi

They duel to a stalemate, that is all.

As far as the date of Kun's alchemical practice comes in, first of all it states he is nowan extremely powerful figure, as in he became it, something reinforced elsewhere:

When the tainted Jedi Exar Kun later commanded the Massassi to expand the temples, he altered many of these beasts even further as a test of his new-found Sith abilities.
-Dark Side Sourcebook

He tests his new abilities by altering Massassi into abominations, his far more impressive alchemical feats take place after, whem he sensed Ulic and Keto he knew he had to interrupt his plans and cement his place:

The Massassi took Exar Kun prisoner and prepared to sacrifice him to a monstrous wyrm. Exar Kun was forced to use his growing connection to the dark side to free himself. Freedon Nadd appeared once more, congratulating his student. But Exar Kun had tired of Nadd’s meddling and used his newfound strength to obliterate Nadd’s spirit. Cowed, the Massassi bowed before Exar Kun as his slaves. Exar Kun’s power grew. He ordered the Massassi to build immense temples and to seek out Naga Sadow’s lost battleship. He also used Sith alchemy to create horrific monsters, including terentateks that hungered for the blood of Force users. But powerful as he was, he could sense a distant rival: Ulic Qel-Droma.
-The Old Republic: Codex Entry: Galactic History 55: The Ascension of Exar Kun

He didn't have the Dark Holocron yet, and he didn't build the Golden Globe or the Dark Reaper until after he had returned from the unification between himself and Ulic. Ergo by the time he had built the Golden globe and Dark reaper, he had gained extreme, enormous powers beyond those he had available when the Ulic duel took place.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Care to provide actual evidence for your conclusion rather than blind speculation on the properties of spirits? Because I'm seeing absolutely no evidence proving anything you've just said.

As I have said the mortal coil limits one's capacity as a Force wielder, some examples:

Dorsk 81 - a member of Luke's academy whose demise was brought about from all the students channelling their power through him, causing a Force overload:

Taken from Darksaber

"Move!" he shouted.

The words themselves were like power incarnate, white-hot energy flaming out of his mouth, from his fingertips, surging through his body and burning, burning. [...]

[...] "Dorsk 81," Kyp said, looking down in horror as the cloned alien's skin sizzled from within, as if the tissues had been brought to a boil. Dorsk 81's wide yellow eyes were now only smouldering sockets. Steam rose from his body.

A breath of words curled out of his gaping, blackened mouth. "They're gone, my friend," he said.

"Wait!" Kyp said. "Wait, we'll find a healer. We'll get Cilghal back. We'll find-"

But Dorsk 81 was already dead in his arms.

Taken from The Dark Nest Trilogy: The Unseen Queen

A flurry of streaks and flashes filled the forward viewport as the pirates opened fire on the counterfeit. Luke continued the illusion's gentle turn, keeping it well ahead of its attackers and drawing them farther away. His skin felt dry and papery, and waves of heat were rolling through his body as the cytoplasm inside his cells began to boil. He did not let up. During the past year, he and Jacen had been working on overload techniques, so he knew could endure the pain and fatigue almost indefinitely. His body would pay a steep price, aging a year in a matter of minutes, but he knew he would not collapse.

Taken from Dark Empire

"Flesh does not easily support this great power."

Evidence of that? Well let's look at the limits of Kun himself. Who was able to empower his spirit with the life energies of thousands of Massassi prior to his imprisonment on Yavin 4:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579323-7350018171-45743.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579324-7603697735-45744.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111179633/4579325-6086201822-45744.jpg

With TotJ going as far as to refer to him breaking free from the "chains of his mortal body" (suggesting his physical form couldn't house that amount of power).

This giving him the power to survive a Wall of Light created by the entire Jedi Order, that's "thousands upon thousands of Force wielders". Power in vast excess of whatever he possessed in life, and proof he could accrue energy well beyond what he ever had before.

On the other hand, what reason do we have to believe the level of power Kun could accrue had an upper limit? When we have entities like Valkorion consuming entire worlds?

First of all, it was Exar Kun's power that defeated Luke Skywalker

Taken from Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

Against the full might of Kyp Durron and the forbidden weapons of the long-dead spirit of Exar Kun, even a Jedi Master such as Luke Skywalker could not prevail.

Secondly, this statement makes it clear that none of the students Kun converted were strong enough to provide him enough energy for all of Kun's power

This proves undisputedly that even when Kun drained Gantoris and had Kyp Durron's power, he was not at full power.

And you call me responsible for circular debates. Give it up dear.

Again you keep arguing that he wouldn't attain physical form given the power he required, when that is exactly what he wanted to do.

Rather, he'd need power in excess of that, to permanently recover those lost reserves.

Infact, after Exar Kun destroyed Luke Skywalker, he had only Streen to draw power from, Gantoris was long dead and Kyp had traversed the galaxy:

Reflecting that Exar Kun by the end was infact very weak, and yet managed this incredibly impressive feat:

Noting that they were empowering each other:

Also note that the Solo twins were being guided by the ghost of Luke Skywalker, who just previously gifted his full skills in lightsaber combat to Jacen:

Also keep in mind that Jacen and Jaina's (now elder) brother Anakin, had been powerful enough as a fetus that through a similar meld he amplified Luke Skywalker's powers enough to defeat the reborn Emperor Palpatine in combat.

Whereas the combined force Exar Kun faced was Cilghal, Streen, Kirani Ti, Brakiss, Jacen, Jaina, Dorsk 81, Kam Solusar and Tionne Solusar, with the spirits of Luke Skywalker and Vodo-Siosk Baas melded together.

Let us take a look at some individual feats...

blah blah blah

So even without Kyp Durron, Gantoris or Streen, whilst his powers exhausted downing Luke Skywalker, Exar Kun at one of his weakest points as a spirit, is choking out an entire group of powerful Jedi, to the point they were fading out, and is only stopped by one of the most powerful melds we've ever seen Jedi perform. One that would later be strong enough to telekinetically hurtle a fleet of Star Destroyers, a vastly more impressive feat than anything Starkiller ever did.

But please continue, the more you wank this feat the easier it is to prove it an outlier. 👆

But yeh, limits and capscities and amps, all down to Kyp Durron, sure thing Beni, sure thing.

Originally posted by AncientPower
On the claim that Exar Kun couldn't defeat Ulic with his powers, the fight was a duel, it wasn't a Force contest nor was it ever implied Force powers were party to their confrontation:

They duel to a stalemate, that is all.

As far as the date of Kun's alchemical practice comes in, first of all it states he is nowan extremely powerful figure, as in he became it, something reinforced elsewhere:

He tests his new abilities by altering Massassi into abominations, his far more impressive alchemical feats take place after, whem he sensed Ulic and Keto he knew he had to interrupt his plans and cement his place:

Regardless, what alchemic feats? You've raised none he performed after facing Ulic.

He didn't have the Dark Holocron yet, and he didn't build the Golden Globe or the Dark Reaper until after he had returned from the unification between himself and Ulic. Ergo by the time he had built the Golden globe and Dark reaper, he had gained extreme, enormous powers beyond those he had available when the Ulic duel took place.

Seriously, enough with the mental gymnastics, it's getting you nowhere.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes, I know the TOR encyclopedia is an in-universe source. Thanks for parroting what I've said in this very thread. And the fact that you point that out only further undermines your argument.

So unless you have something stating The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia is in-universe then I'm not really sure what you are arguing here...

Read this:

Like the first Encyclopedia, the in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history.

Taken from Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia

Originally posted by ares834
It's almost as if by that time they had been reintegrated into the galaxy for decades...

Exar Kun would be a well-known figure throughout the galaxy. TOR era sources touch his story time and again.

How would Darth Nyriss know that Revan was powerful and extremely dangerous? Tell me?

Originally posted by ares834
In that case, you would know that Morne quote you used t argue Muur > Vader wasn't referring to Muur being more powerful but rather that he had access to a power that could allow him to defeat Vader via turning the Stormtroopers into Rakghouls.

Karness Muur transformed stormtroopers into Rakghouls because there presence would be problematic. Afterwards, the former would find it easier to contend with Darth Vader [1 on 1] and tackle him. Darth Vader's retreat from the scene implies that he was not going to take his chances against Karness Muur. Simple.

Originally posted by ares834
For what? You didn't refute a single one of my points. You go off on unnecessary tangents that have nothing to do with what we are arguing about and even undermine your own sources.

I wonder if Legend will notice that word "omniscient" here soon. mmm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Listen you baboon

Originally posted by Aurbere
I wonder if Legend will notice that word "omniscient" here soon. mmm

Both TOR Encyclopedia and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia are in-universe sourcebooks. The writing style of both is same.

Beni being sassy AF. I likey

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Omniscient committee of historians and scholars (within the Star Wars saga), not authors.

Both TOR Encyclopedia and The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia are in-universe sourcebooks. The writing style of both is same.

We all know what "omniscient" means, right? I feel like someone here doesn't...

Originally posted by Aurbere
We all know what "omniscient" means, right? I feel like someone here doesn't...

Historians and Scholars, period.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Historians and Scholars, period.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What exactly is your point?