Legionaires Vs Heralds

Originally posted by basilisk
Pre-Crisis is probably a given, but excluding that version the list above (removing Superboy/girl) plus KK still has numbers, power, and versatility. But I think the Legion will need to rely heavily on the heavy hitters and magic users to win through. I don't know how Saturn Girl would go, she is powerful but these are heralds. I also think MEL might be needed to take out Destroyer if some other members can get him close enough.

On the herald side Destroyer, Morg, and Surfer will be trouble. No Fallen One though.

Without Morg and Destroyer I'd say stronger Legion lineups would win out. But with them it's tough to pick.

Thunder, XS, Black witch, and sensor girl don't exist pre crisis (sensor girl was princess projectra, different and lessor power set).

Anyhow lets look at a few ive listed.

Wilfire if he was to completely release his entire energy for from his containment suit can become a near limitless energy that in a blast can potentially take out a few heralds.

Sensor/girl after her retern and increase in power can completely alter the perceptions of anyone. She no longer just casts illusions like when she was projectra she completely controls all sensory input. In lightning saga Superman couldnt even see through he illauiona he only had an inkling be cause he knew sensor and a suspicion that something wasnt right. She kept her identity completely hidden from everyone but saturn girl IIRC. She couls literally have most of the heralds fighting each other just like she had the JSA and JLA. She went after the Fatal 5 solo ffs.

Thunder, Mon-el, Ultra-boy, and blok (not to mention Andromda the female daxamite I forgot) have the same similar erguments that we see in Superman vs Silver Surfer threads. They may not take Surfer, Destroyer or Morg but the rest they woul in 1 on 1s and they can hold off those 3 for a while.

None of the heralds should be able to so much as tag XS.

Black witch having absorbed the power of Mordru can take pretty much any herald and for the lesser ones 2 at a time.

Element lad can alter their structure.

Then lets look at some of the fodder/ brief memebers that I havent mentioned.

Quantum kid (number 2 bumber 1 was a joke) cand slow them in time to hold players out of the battle.

Kinetix a powerful TKer who could manipulate matter and magic.

Harmonia Li who can control all four elements.

Lets not forget "Earth-Man" who can siphon off powers. Granted more of a LoSH villain but briefly a memeber.

Quantum Queen. Able to control almost any part of the energy/ magnetic spectrum. Super strength, invulnerbility and the ability to go Nova.

Or quislet whoc an possess inanimate objects and cintrol alter them. They are destoyed when hes in them to long or leaves. He possesses surfer boatd, firelords staff and then simply leaves and they self desteuct. The only thing safe from his possession is matter frommhis own dimension. Thats a pretty much instant/ quick removal of most heralds weapons and destroyer armor played right.

How anout Tyrok with basically the powers of Black Bolt.

All of that is excluding Rond Vidar and Celeste Mcauley (both with the power of GL's. Chemical king and Boy who can control chemical reactions and composition. Chameleon boy and Girl who can take on the forms of anyone right down to internal organs. Attck you as though they were your allies (aided by sensor and he deceptions.

The options are too many without some sort of limit on the number of Legionares allowed to be used. Ive barely touched on the full spectrum of Legion membership.

How anout Tyrok with basically the powers of Black Bolt.

Originally posted by riv6672
Really?
Is that pre or post crisis?
Seems these two should have been matched up here.

If we go pre crisis he even has feats for low level reality warping. Which from sound generation just doesnt make sense (but then a lot of pre COIE didnt) and controlling weather and stuff by sonic waves and the right words. But thinking on it a lot of he stuff post COIE is off panel being more of a supporting character. What we do see on panel is more like sonic force blasts with vague references to other applications..

Good deal.
I went and started a thread, giving you due credit, of course!

White Witch can easily neutralize Destroyer.

Originally posted by beatboks
Mon-el
Superboy
Supergirl
Thunder
Ultraboy
Wildfire
Sensorgirl
Element lad
XS
Cosmic Boy (and IIRC his brother was also a member)
Block
White/black witch

These guys alone can give that list of heralds a bloody hard time.sensor girl can literaly xeprive them of their senses or make them see what she wants. She can make an illusion a "new reality".

When you add in Sunboy, lightning lad and Lass, KK, starboy, Phantom girl and Polarboy who can all at lease distract or occupy any herald so that the heavy hitters take out others fast/er. I'd say its a forgone conclusion

Even the fodder can destract enough to ensure victory

There are no Supermen in this fight os Superboy shouldn't be in it. Or Supergirl. So we are left with post crisis Ultraboy and Mon El as the big heavy hitters. Wildfire too I guess. But a lot of people will be killed in the opening energy blast. Mon El has the lead weakness right? Surfer can surely transmute lead. Likewise, what will Sunboy do to Surfer besides be a speed bump? Same for lightning Lad and pretty much everyone else you mentioned.

EDIT: Like for example you said Element Lad can "alter their structures" but he will most likely be vaporized before anything like that can be done.

Some of these people have powers that would potentially be helpful..if their opponents more or less just stood there and didn't move and let them do their thing.

Also yeah if this is the version of the Destroyer powerful enough to cut Thor's hammer in half with an energy beam then the heralds should win quite easily.

Originally posted by Surtur
There are no Supermen in this fight os Superboy shouldn't be in it. Or Supergirl. So we are left with post crisis Ultraboy and Mon El as the big heavy hitters. Wildfire too I guess. But a lot of people will be killed in the opening energy blast. Mon El has the lead weakness right? Surfer can surely transmute lead. Likewise, what will Sunboy do to Surfer besides be a speed bump? Same for lightning Lad and pretty much everyone else you mentioned.

EDIT: Like for example you said Element Lad can "alter their structures" but he will most likely be vaporized before anything like that can be done.

Some of these people have powers that would potentially be helpful..if their opponents more or less just stood there and didn't move and let them do their thing.

Also yeah if this is the version of the Destroyer powerful enough to cut Thor's hammer in half with an energy beam then the heralds should win quite easily.

Maybe you should read some LOSH before spouting such BS. No, Mon-El isn't weak to lead in LOSH due to Brainy making a cure.

The rest is just nonsensical.

Originally posted by Surtur
There are no Supermen in this fight os Superboy shouldn't be in it. Or Supergirl. So we are left with post crisis Ultraboy and Mon El as the big heavy hitters. Wildfire too I guess. But a lot of people will be killed in the opening energy blast. Mon El has the lead weakness right? Surfer can surely transmute lead. Likewise, what will Sunboy do to Surfer besides be a speed bump? Same for lightning Lad and pretty much everyone else you mentioned.

EDIT: Like for example you said Element Lad can "alter their structures" but he will most likely be vaporized before anything like that can be done.

Some of these people have powers that would potentially be helpful..if their opponents more or less just stood there and didn't move and let them do their thing.

Also yeah if this is the version of the Destroyer powerful enough to cut Thor's hammer in half with an energy beam then the heralds should win quite easily.

Thunder and Andromeda are also Superman level. Thunder is 30th cent marvel family and Andromda is a daxamite. As abhi said lead weakness doesn't exist in the 30th cent, b5 came up with a cure which is why Mon-el came out of phantom zone.

Blok can also fight close to that level. Close to same degree strength and durability.

Sensor girl was actually believed by the Legion to be Supergirl in disguise for some time. Thats how powerful she is.

Black Witch is up there with classic strange anf Fate. Not to mention she also has an apprentise who's a brief member.

You also have the fact IIRC that a descendent of tellis was able to stomp Supergirl in REBELS. Thats a less evolved member of that race.

There are a total of 7 superman type heroes in the LoSH including Supes and SG. Exlcuding still leaves 5 equals.plus a couple very close to equal. Add in Black witch who is vastly superior in power, wild fire, rond Vidar (GL), celeste (GL), Quantum Queen who are all close or in that level. others I've mentioned who can battle at that level. Then factor in teams of others who can combine to be a problem.

Even without Superman and Supergirl there are at least a dozen legionares that could all go one on one with most of these heralds (and a few of those like Bw who can go 1 to 2). There are a dozen more who can trouble them briefly solo (or have periods in their history when they could like Starboy who was also briefly superman like).

We're talking about a team that has had a memebership of around 60 members at the same time AND has a total list of members close to 100 if I'm not mistaken. We were told we could use any members post COIE. I mean Brainys force field can contain any herald for as long as required. Already mentioned Quantum kid can slow time to a stop for some heralds so those who can contend can take out others.

You mention Sunbot. He was able to defeat Quantum Queen when she was a villain by fighting smart. QQ was an energy manipulator on SS level at that point. When she came back to join as a Legionare her power had vrown and she was also a matter manipulator who additionally had Super strength AND invulnerability.

Its clear to me your not familiar with the range and scope of Legion memebers and their powers.

Originally posted by beatboks
Mon-el
Superboy
Supergirl
Thunder
Ultraboy
Wildfire
Sensorgirl
Element lad
XS
Cosmic Boy (and IIRC his brother was also a member)
Block
White/black witch

These guys alone can give that list of heralds a bloody hard time.sensor girl can literaly xeprive them of their senses or make them see what she wants. She can make an illusion a "new reality".

When you add in Sunboy, lightning lad and Lass, KK, starboy, Phantom girl and Polarboy who can all at lease distract or occupy any herald so that the heavy hitters take out others fast/er. I'd say its a forgone conclusion

Even the fodder can destract enough to ensure victory

Yeah, Sensor Girl fooled the JLA. Legion takes this.

Some of these people have powers that would potentially be helpful..if their opponents more or less just stood there and didn't move and let them do their thing.

The rest is just nonsensical.

Surtur's got a point, abhi. You and s lot of posters here debate that way.

Other than that this still seems an interesting match up.

Originally posted by riv6672
Surtur's got a point, abhi. You and s lot of posters here debate that way.

Other than that this still seems an interesting match up.

I dont believe he does. The idea that the legion is getting many taken out in an opejing salvo simply shouldnt fly. Dream girl will have seen this salvo allowing the Legion to react b4 initiated. B5 will extended his FF around his team mates. B5's force field can withstand Suneater (solar system dwstriction level) so is well untruly capable of wthistanding the damage the heralds can dish out. As stated Quantum kid can slow their attacksto a stop also allowing the legion to react in time to avoid..

These are just a FEW options of many.

Dream girl will have seen this salvo allowing the Legion to react b4 initiated.

If thats how you want to call it thats fine, but i said no prep.
Also, to be clear, my statement goes both ways. I don't (personally) think the Heralds take out a majority of the Legion off the bat, either. Its not like they're statues. Well, except for Stone Boy.

And again thats all IF sensor even allows the heralds to sense their presence, know where to attack, and simply not have the heralds percieve each other as their enemy and them all take themselves out.

Ah, i see you're talking AT not TO. Carry on. 👆

Originally posted by riv6672
If thats how you want to call it thats fine, but i said no prep.
Also, to be clear, my statement goes both ways. I don't (personally) think the Heralds take out a majority of the Legion off the bat, either. Its not like they're statues. Well, except fir Stone Boy.

Ahh i didnt say prep. She can have the vision at outset of or arrival on battle/field. Legion are normally TP linked by either Saturn Girl or Tellus. Lets not forget the prime enemy is a guy who can play with time like no other who has NEVER had them flat footed!!!!

If Time trapper cant blitz the team when time is his plaything these heralds arent.

Oh and FTR I'm not saying there is no chance of an opening attack that takes out a large number of the Legion just that the way the Legion as a team are portrayed it's not an overly likely outcome. There is a chance of that occurring maybe 3 of 4 times out of ten.

I mean look at the enemies that the Legion fights.

The fatal five is a team of 5 who frankly would take a majority vs the 11 heralds here

Time Trapper who can and did crete his own pocket universe to play with.

Pulsar Stargrve - intellect near B5, physicals near Superman and energy manipulations on the level above a star.

Mordru who absorbed half the magic in the DC universe of this era and it took every mage in the universe to bind him to one planet (before White witch took his power and became Black)

Nemisis kid with convenient plot device power of being able to develop the power necessary to defeat anyone he faces.

Darksied, and lets not forget that during GDS he absorbed the power of many magical artifacts AND that of a just freed Mordru. Yeah I know pre COIE but still canon given that it's a part of Legion history and without it how does Validus even come to exist (since DS would have never taken Lighting lad and Saturn girls baby to make him if he had no call for revenge)

Omaga (or maybe Omega)who is formed from the hate of all the known Universe (IIRC he was actually created by B5)

These are just some of the guys that teams of Legionaires fight usually with just one or two of their heavy hitters in these battles (most legion stories only feature a dozen or less members at a time).

Is morg with WOL?

Originally posted by Genii96
Is morg with WOL?

And Beatboks:
No prep means no prep.
That has NEVER been an issue here no matter how many precogs have happened to be on a team.
So, basically if you're hinging your whole strategy on that, your strategy is faulty.
You probably dont care, but then neither do i.

Originally posted by beatboks
Thunder and Andromeda are also Superman level. Thunder is 30th cent marvel family and Andromda is a daxamite.

What actual feats do they have on Superman's level?

Blok can also fight close to that level. Close to same degree strength and durability.

And his speed?

Sensor girl was actually believed by the Legion to be Supergirl in disguise for some time. Thats how powerful she is.

Black Witch is up there with classic strange anf Fate. Not to mention she also has an apprentise who's a brief member.

You also have the fact IIRC that a descendent of tellis was able to stomp Supergirl in REBELS. Thats a less evolved member of that race.

There are a total of 7 superman type heroes in the LoSH including Supes and SG. Exlcuding still leaves 5 equals.plus a couple very close to equal. Add in Black witch who is vastly superior in power, wild fire, rond Vidar (GL), celeste (GL), Quantum Queen who are all close or in that level. others I've mentioned who can battle at that level. Then factor in teams of others who can combine to be a problem.

Even without Superman and Supergirl there are at least a dozen legionares that could all go one on one with most of these heralds (and a few of those like Bw who can go 1 to 2). There are a dozen more who can trouble them briefly solo (or have periods in their history when they could like Starboy who was also briefly superman like).

We're talking about a team that has had a memebership of around 60 members at the same time AND has a total list of members close to 100 if I'm not mistaken. We were told we could use any members post COIE. I mean Brainys force field can contain any herald for as long as required. Already mentioned Quantum kid can slow time to a stop for some heralds so those who can contend can take out others.

You mention Sunbot. He was able to defeat Quantum Queen when she was a villain by fighting smart. QQ was an energy manipulator on SS level at that point. When she came back to join as a Legionare her power had vrown and she was also a matter manipulator who additionally had Super strength AND invulnerability.

Its clear to me your not familiar with the range and scope of Legion memebers and their powers.

I was mostly going by the people in the actual picture shown, not the 60-100 other members. I just can't help noticing a lot of this is "well this person is like this person, and this person is like this person" instead of feats. "So and so is like Dr. Strange and Fate combined" and all that.

Originally posted by beatboks
Ahh i didnt say prep. She can have the vision at outset of or arrival on battle/field. Legion are normally TP linked by either Saturn Girl or Tellus. Lets not forget the prime enemy is a guy who can play with time like no other who has NEVER had them flat footed!!!!

If Time trapper cant blitz the team when time is his plaything these heralds arent.

Some of the logic you put forth doesn't make any actual sense. It doesn't matter how many visions someone has if they aren't fast enough to do anything about it. Even though some 85% of the Legion lack the speed to even use her vision to avoid any kind of attack...whether they are telepathically linked or not. It's like when I see someone saying a force user can react to the Flash because of their "force precog".

Morg with WOL?,um,I think heralds win this one