Revan 3.0 vs. Exar Kun

If potential-unlocked Durron were more powerful than living Exar, he would be able to use more than "some" of Kun's powers.

It's not about Durron using anything. The quote talks about Kun channeling powers through Durron, not Durron using Kun's powers.

Do you understand the difference?

Why would he have enough energy to unlock Durron beyond his own full power, but not enough to use rituals that said self could use without draining out? That doesn't make any sense.

For example, in the Infinities storyline with Skywalker and the Son, the Son was able to unlock all of Skywalker's potential but still wasn't more powerful than Skywalker, obviously.

Then why does it say that he can "channel" these powers through them? It doesn't say he "teaches Kyp how to use" them, and the idea that Kyp learned how to use tendrils in a few days is kind of funny.

Kun was essentially guiding Kyp's actions, holding over his mind (so much that Kyp immediately surrendered to Han when Kun died), seeing what he was seeing from across the galaxy, etc.

The quote isn't even consistent with the primary material, but making sense of it both, Kun can both teach Durron how to do X but can also do X through Durron.

It's not that hard to understand.

Right, obviously. And when it says Sidious is the most powerful sith, they're actually referring to his fleet of star destroyers.

Kun knew powers through expressing the dark side through his gauntlets.

The people he's channeling through don't have ****ing gauntlets, so they can only use some of his powers, for Kun knows others that can only be accessed by this or that.

So there you go. That's another ****ing interpretation of the quote that's not absolutely retarded.

Your whole case is built around the idea that Kun can't channel all of his powers through Kyp because his energy reserves are limited. Except, you know, apparently he is channeling his powers through someone more powerful than himself, so why doesn't he just use Kyp's apparently superior power instead? That's the whole point of channeling sh*t through him, kek.

Your response to this seems to be that some of his rituals are too complicated or something for Kyp to understand. So what? Exar Kun is the subject, he's channeling his own powers and using Kyp as a vessel. And as AP pointed out, Kun's hold over Kyp is incredibly tight.

Now your case is built around the semantics distinction between this and some sources using Kyp as the subject; they're one and the same. Kun is acting through Kyp. Duh. What's your explanation? That Kyp is attacking, and then Kun sometimes takes control of him to attack too, but the latter Kyp is weaker than the former?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kun knew powers through expressing the dark side through his gauntlets.

Yeah, that's ridiculous and I'm pretty sure you know it. And I'm pretty sure he has like one move that he uses his gauntlets for.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your whole case is built around the idea that Kun can't channel all of his powers through Kyp because his energy reserves are limited. Except, you know, apparently he is channeling his powers through someone more powerful than himself, so why doesn't he just use Kyp's apparently superior power instead? That's the whole point of channeling sh*t through him, kek.

We've never actually seen Kun channel anything through Durron. One might argue the Sun Crusher lifting, but even that is just one interpretation of many.

However, none can argue that Kun was channeling power through him when he fought Skywalker. Sources make a clear distinction between Kun and Durron in that fight.

Your response to this seems to be that some of his rituals are too complicated or something for Kyp to understand. So what? Exar Kun is the subject, he's channeling his own powers and using Kyp as a vessel. And as AP pointed out, Kun's hold over Kyp is incredibly tight.

You don't understand. For one, Kun doesn't have total possession over Durron.

Kun knows a swath of powers in the field of Sith sorcery and Sith alchemy that requires elaborate planning, preparation, moving, etc.

Kun can't do all that through Durron unless he has total control over Durron, which he doesn't, clearly.

Now your case is built around the semantics distinction between this and some sources using Kyp as the subject; they're one and the same. Kun is acting through Kyp. Duh.

This is supported by sources crediting Skywalker's defeat at the hands of Durron exercising his own power, not Kun's.

Kun helped on his own, but never channeled his power through Durron during that fight in particular.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Hardly saying spirit Kun is prime Kun. Merely saying that Spirit Kun is above Jedi Kun.

I like how you use this appeal as if it's going to sway me just by having the word Bane in it, but even POD Bane is more powerful than that nexus, and Bane is confirmed to be more powerful and masterful with Sith techniques than Kun.

Where do you draw the line then? There's Jedi!Kun, Sith!Kun then Prime!Kun after learning from the Dark Holocron.

Bane having more knowledge than Kun is literally not possible. Exar Kun had the full knowledge of Naga Sadow, knowledge stated to have died with Exar Kun, only Darth Sidious had uncovered this knowledge and he considered it so dangerous and powerful that he wouldn't share it with anybody else.

Kun had the Dark Holocron, stated to make him more powerful just by studying it, it contained a hundred, thousand years of dark side knowledge that Kun would later destroy, releasing the spirits inside.

Kun also gained knowledge from the Great Libraries on Ossus which is stated to be more than he'd ever need, such knowledge was the sum left before Ossus was destroyed.

He also gained the full direct teachings of Freedon Nadd and had repeated sessions with the Tedryn Holocron as a Jedi.

Bane stating in PoD that he sought the knowledge of the great Dark Lords such as Exar Kun is pretty definitive on the matter.

Ant, at this point you may want to realise that Exar Kun was tapping into (I.E. channelling through) Kyp when he downed the Suncrusher and then Luke turns up right afterwards and they utterly destroy him.

After Kun's final death, Luke takes Kyp into the jungle and Kyp wonders if Luke intends to execute him or gain revenge, Kyp then mentally asserts that he wouldn't even bother fighting back if that was the case.

So we have Kyp after Kun's death basically not standing a chance against Luke, whereas before he stomps Luke. I wonder what exactly the difference was between those two occasions.

The difference being Durron was mentally unstable and unwilling to use his power, as directly stated in the early sentences of chapter 27? 😂

Durron was fearful to face Skywalker because he didn't want to bring more destruction than he already caused. Did you even read the book?

You mean despite Kyp Durron going into the Black temple and being fully capable of using his powers, despite those powers remaining apparent, he wasn't going to try to fight back.

Admit you have no stance bar obvious bias against Exar Kun, Exar Kun in his prime is defeating JA!Luke and no matter how many times you misinterpret matters that isn't changing anything.

Spirit Exar Kun in general, aid or no, never equated his prime incarnation, or as the sources stated, he would have achieved the sufficient power to resurrect.

Your stance is as groundless as others who've tried the same argument.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
To me, throwing out Kun's Spirit feats because his living feats "weren't as impressive" is pretty damn ridiculous.

Because quite frankly, we don't really know how amazeballs the jedi of Kun's era were, at least as far as swordsmanship is concerned. All we really know is that Odan and Vodo are respectively the, "Yoda and Mace Windu" of their era. The best indicator of power regarding Kun in life is his stalemating Droma without his double bladed saber, his battering of Vodo as a padawan and tooling of him as the Dark Lord, his oneshotting of Spirit Nadd, (who was hilariously above the likes of King Ommin and Queen Amanoa, metaphysically buffeted Vodo from across the galaxy, etc) far before his prime, and being implied as vastly superior to any individual jedi of the era, including Thon, who trapped an entire planet's nexus and its host of sith spirits while exhausted. It's like when people use Vader's lack of facing any noteworthy opponents in sabers during the purge as an argument that he lacks lightsaber skill. Furthermore, the idea that Kun as a spirit is superior to his living form flies in the face of precedence. Literally every single goddamn sith spirit we've ever seen is inferior to their physical form. Ragnos. Nadd. Sadow. Vitiate/Valkorion. Even with drawing on external sources like Kyp and so on, Ragnos after eating multiple nexuses wasn't even close to full power, and Vitiate wasn't rejuvenated till he ate the possibly millions of deaths in the Revanite war, billions on Ziost, and the entire dark side nexus of Ziost. Of course also taking into account that Vitiate had been recuperating for months prior to the revanite war.

Point being: We literally have every reason to believe Kun is absolutely at an immensely high level based on what we know and what has been stated, and only, as Ellimist would say, appeals to self-incredulity to not believe so.

👆

@Ant I'm going to bed, but do you think peak Kyp > JA Luke?

@Kulvax:

He wasn't going to fight back because he specifically said that "He had allowed his anger to cause too much destruction already."

Furthermore, he stated that "I'm afraid that any power I use now might also lead me down the path of destruction."

So, no. It has nothing to do with fearing he'd lose to Skywalker, but rather fearing he'd turn back to the dark side again.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Where do you draw the line then? There's Jedi!Kun, Sith!Kun then Prime!Kun after learning from the Dark Holocron.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Bane having more knowledge than Kun is literally not possible. Exar Kun had the full knowledge of Naga Sadow, knowledge stated to have died with Exar Kun, only Darth Sidious had uncovered this knowledge and he considered it so dangerous and powerful that he wouldn't share it with anybody else.

Kun had the Dark Holocron, stated to make him more powerful just by studying it, it contained a hundred, thousand years of dark side knowledge that Kun would later destroy, releasing the spirits inside.

Kun also gained knowledge from the Great Libraries on Ossus which is stated to be more than he'd ever need, such knowledge was the sum left before Ossus was destroyed.

He also gained the full direct teachings of Freedon Nadd and had repeated sessions with the Tedryn Holocron as a Jedi.

Bane stating in PoD that he sought the knowledge of the great Dark Lords such as Exar Kun is pretty definitive on the matter.

Additionally, he acquired holocron of Sorzus Syn, which would've contained much of the knowledge found within the Dark Holocron from the relatively primitive Sith Species's practice of the dark side plus the advancements Sorzus Syn made upon this knowledge. And this shows by the fact that Sorzus Syn created the Murr Talisman, the Dreypa Talisman, and the Syn Talisman (stated to be considerably more powerful than the other two), as well as creating leviathans well before her prime.

Additionally, Bane also acquired the holocron of Darth Revan, who had already acquired "an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge" on Malachor V prior to even becoming a Sith, which is reaffirmed by the holocron possessing rituals as devastating as the thought bomb and the ritual that devastated most of Ruusan's surface.

Bane having more knowledge than Kun is hardly as impossible as you want it to be, and while Vitiate clearly wasn't being referred to in that fact files quote (as the editors of fact files confirmed they weren't taking SWTOR into account), Exar Kun, a Sith who has appeared in numerous fact files before, is fair game.

And also Bane stating that he sought the knowledge of the great Sith Lords like Exar Kun was when he was feigning failure when meeting with Githany, and hardly at the height of his powers.

If Bane > Kun and Vitiate saw Kun as a threat (which I'll admit I haven't researched extensively), it's tough to see how Sidious could be below Vitiate given an explicitly mentioned 30-generation power creep. 👆

@Ant

He also makes it pretty clear that he is terrified of Luke, I've got the damn book right here.

"Han could tell from Kyp's rigid posture and his set jaw that the young man was terrified at having to face his Jedi Master. Han felt cold, not wanting to be trapped between two people he counted among his dearest friends."

Yeah, because he just killed billions, if not trillions, of innocents and feels regret and remorse about it.

Yeah AP tbh there's no reason to think that's from having to fight him, rather than the emotional implications of having to face someone you tried to kill.

EDIT: ninja'd

Yes, one factor among many, one of them being dying I'd imagine. It was millions by the way.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Some point where Kun was actually familiar with Sorcery tbh.

Well Bane also acquired the knowledge of Freedon Nadd through his holocron.

Additionally, he acquired holocron of Sorzus Syn, which would've contained much of the knowledge found within the Dark Holocron from the relatively primitive Sith Species's practice of the dark side plus the advancements Sorzus Syn made upon this knowledge. And this shows by the fact that Sorzus Syn created the Murr Talisman, the Dreypa Talisman, and the Syn Talisman (stated to be considerably more powerful than the other two), as well as creating leviathans well before her prime.

Additionally, Bane also acquired the holocron of Darth Revan, who had already acquired "an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge" on Malachor V prior to even becoming a Sith, which is reaffirmed by the holocron possessing rituals as devastating as the thought bomb and the ritual that devastated most of Ruusan's surface.

Bane having more knowledge than Kun is hardly as impossible as you want it to be, and while Vitiate clearly wasn't being referred to in that fact files quote (as the editors of fact files confirmed they weren't taking SWTOR into account), Exar Kun, a Sith who has appeared in numerous fact files before, is fair game.

And also Bane stating that he sought the knowledge of the great Sith Lords like Exar Kun was when he was feigning failure when meeting with Githany, and hardly at the height of his powers.

Bane acquired one holocron, Kun was directly taught, had all of Sadow's treasury at his disposal and is confirmed to have the full knowledge of Sadow and Nadd combined. Not exactly the same thing.

Much of Sorzus Syn's teachings are in the Book of Sith, the Dark Holocron has a 100,000 years worth of Sith knowledge and techniques, it is the most dangerous of them all and one Odan-Urr specifically sought to protect above all others due to the dangers within it.

Exar Kun having vast knowledge from Ossus, the Tedryn(Great) Holocron, Dantooine's archives, Korriban and much more is simply overkill on the aforementioned.

Exar Kun constructed the Golden Globe, the Dark Reaper, a vast network of Sith temples, a Holocron on Sith spirits stated to be among the three most infamous Sith artifacts in the galaxy, he created Terentateks, Battle Hydras and created Massassi Abominations stated to be far more advanced than Sadow's experiments.

This sorcery knowledge above all others is what Reborn Palpatine considers the greatest he knows, besides of course the Force storm.

A single statement that refers specifically to the context of Darth Bane within the Brotherhood of Sith is hardly a definitive statement of superiority. Not when Exar Kun is compared by numerous sources, including Kevin J. Anderson, Luke, sourcebooks and more to Reborn Palpatine, the greatest Banite Sith by a league mile.

Especially when Knowledge doesn't equal mastery, as Bane had **** all ability to perform the feats of sorcery and couldn't wrap his head around any of the knowledge of Revan's/Sadow's/Nadd's holocron. The moron even failed at his attempt at essence transfer, that accolade is so full of shit..

Bane could choke out Qordis, lol at him being weak

Originally posted by AncientPower
Bane acquired one holocron, Kun was directly taught, had all of Sadow's treasury at his disposal and is confirmed to have the full knowledge of Sadow and Nadd combined. Not exactly the same thing.

WHOOPS!

Originally posted by AncientPower
Much of Sorzus Syn's teachings are in the Book of Sith, the Dark Holocron has a 100,000 years worth of Sith knowledge and techniques, it is the most dangerous of them all and one Odan-Urr specifically sought to protect above all others due to the dangers within it.

So it's the most dangerous holocron the Jedi actually possess? Other holocrons possessed by the Jedi at this time tbh? Because Revan's holocron, Nadd's holocron, and Syn's holocron are not among them. And 100,000 years worth of Sith knowledge? You do realize this implies most of it was the knowledge of the Sith species prior to the exiles arriving and starting up the Sith Order right? And those exiles including Sorzus Syn had powers well beyond that of the Ancient Sith even before learning from them and advancing their teachings to a new level.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun having vast knowledge from Ossus, the Tedryn(Great) Holocron, Dantooine's archives, Korriban and much more is simply overkill on the aforementioned.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun constructed the Golden Globe, the Dark Reaper, a vast network of Sith temples, a Holocron on Sith spirits stated to be among the three most infamous Sith artifacts in the galaxy, he created Terentateks, Battle Hydras and created Massassi Abominations stated to be far more advanced than Sadow's experiments.

Originally posted by AncientPower
This sorcery knowledge above all others is what Reborn Palpatine considers the greatest he knows, besides of course the Force storm.

Originally posted by AncientPower
A single statement that refers specifically to the context of Darth Bane within the Brotherhood of Sith is hardly a definitive statement of superiority. Not when Exar Kun is compared by numerous sources, including Kevin J. Anderson, Luke, sourcebooks and more to Reborn Palpatine, the greatest Banite Sith by a league mile.

And that quote didn't say anything about "just the Sith in Kaan's Order" either.

@DMB

Freedon Nadd learnt everything he could, then packed his bags and headed to Onderon, he evidently did not learn everything Sadow had, given that he needed Kun to research Sadow's teachings to find a way to reconstruct Nadd's body for him. There are also entire places Exar Kun uncovers that nobody else had found before, also containing Sadow's knowledge.

What Dooku considers amazing isn't relevant given that he is not a sorcerer and more importantly he is not Exar Kun. The Dark Holocron contains history and knowledge of the Sith dating back a 100,000 years and more, meaning that is how far back some of the knowledge can be dated to, not all of it.

Furthermore Odan-Urr took part in the destruction of Sith knowledge throughout the Sith empire after the GHW and cut Sith Lords off from the Force, yet upon finding the Dark Holocron he considers it by far the most dangerous artifact he'd come across.

How can the knowledge the Jedi have during the Kotor era match that of Ossus when Mical, a Jedi historian, states that the Jedi are losing much of the knowledge due to the wars, specifically due to the destruction of the Great Library?

Malachor V was one planet amongst many Sith worlds, it was a storehouse of Sith knowledge from the Sith Empire. That is impressive, but considering the Dark Holocron itself is specifically infamous throughout history for its knowledge, whereas Malachor V is a bump in the road comparatively in the eyes of historians then I question the supposed superiority.

Exar Kun's knowledge died with him, when Sidious finally uncovered this knowledge he praised it amongst all others, and maintained that it was too dangerous to share with anybody. Sidious had the absolute sum of all Sith knowledge the Banite Sith ever uncovered and he's still giving the greatest sorcerers like Sadow and Exar Kun praise for their works.

On the topic of Kun and Sidious, Kevin J. Anderson states a clash between the two would decide which one is the greatest Sith Lord. Furthermore narratorial statements have reinforced that with Kyp Durron facing something just as powerful as Luke had in his own trials with the Dark Side. These comparisons are consistently maintained right up until Specters of the Past throughout a series of books.

Now you want to continue using your pretty much retconned Fact File statement? Because Fact File once maintained that Exar Kun, not Darth Bane, was the most powerful of all Sith Lords, until that was retconned by Darth Sidious being the most powerful. Obviously that is no longer applicable to a discussion with Darth Sidious or Vitiate, but Darth Bane is still 'fair game' as you put it.

Want to stop using a clearly no longer relrvant Fact File accolade or you want to concede to that? You choose.