Revan 3.0 vs. Exar Kun

Started by Emperordmb14 pages

If you respond to me again, could you not pull a ****ing Syndicate please?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Freedon Nadd learnt everything he could, then packed his bags and headed to Onderon, he evidently did not learn everything Sadow had, given that he needed Kun to research Sadow's teachings to find a way to reconstruct Nadd's body for him. There are also entire places Exar Kun uncovers that nobody else had found before, also containing Sadow's knowledge.

-Fact File 90

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."-Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Well there's two statements, provide your evidence that Nadd didn't have all of Sadow's teachings or stop waisting my time.

Not to mention Nadd is a greater sorcerer than Sadow anyways

Originally posted by AncientPower
What Dooku considers amazing isn't relevant given that he is not a sorcerer and more importantly he is not Exar Kun. The Dark Holocron contains history and knowledge of the Sith dating back a 100,000 years and more, meaning that is how far back some of the knowledge can be dated to, not all of it.

Its pretty relevant that Dooku considered something Bane considered rudimentary to be magnificent and worth advancing from even after exploring the Dark Holocron, which certainly possessed more than sorcery.

Also, OOOOHHH HISTORY!!! Bane is ****ed now!

Originally posted by AncientPower
Furthermore Odan-Urr took part in the destruction of Sith knowledge throughout the Sith empire after the GHW and cut Sith Lords off from the Force, yet upon finding the Dark Holocron he considers it by far the most dangerous artifact he'd come across.

And unless Odan-Urr is confirmed to have come across a holocron as great as Darth Revan's, Freedon Nadd's, or Sorzus Syn's, I'm really not sure what this proves in comparison to Bane.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How can the knowledge the Jedi have during the Kotor era match that of Ossus when Mical, a Jedi historian, states that the Jedi are losing much of the knowledge due to the wars, specifically due to the destruction of the Great Library?

First of all can I get a quote for this?

Secondly, among the Jedi teachers Revan learned everything from was Kreia, and some of the greatest Jedi of Kun's day also lived to pass their knowledge down.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Malachor V was one planet amongst many Sith worlds, it was a storehouse of Sith knowledge from the true Suth Empire. That is impressive, but considering the Dark Holocron itself is specifically infamous throughout history for its knowledge, whereas Malachor V is a bump in the road comparatively in the eyes of historians then I question the supposed superiority.

Malachor V... is a bump in the road? Tell that to KOTOR II tbh. And any planetary store of information is hardly a bump in the road, seeing as such an amount of knowledge shits on the Ossus Libraries pretty hard.

Added upon this, it is also apparent that Darth Revan acquired a substantial amount of knowledge from Emperor Vitiate before creating his holocron, and some pretty hefty amounts of knowledge as well.
"Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at the time when the Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan."
―Star Wars: Force and Destiny Core Rulebook

And its worth noting that this specific ritual which Vitiate apparently passed on to Revan was the most complex ritual ever attempted
"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."
-The Old Republic: Revan

With that in mind, the value of the knowledge in Revan's holocron, which Kun never acquired, skyrockets immensely tbh.

Quite frankly, based on some of Vitiate's knowledge, along with an entire planetary store of Sith knowledge, Revan's holocron is looking to be a greater source of knowledge than any Kun had aside from possibly Freedon Nadd, whose knowledge Bane also had access to.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun's knowledge died with him, when Sidious finally uncovered this knowledge he praised it amongst all others, and maintained that it was too dangerous to share with anybody. Sidious had the absolute sum of all Sith knowledge the Banite Sith ever uncovered and he's still giving the greatest sorcerers like Sadow and Exar Kun praise for their works.

He doesn't really have the knowledge of everything the Banite Sith uncovered though, considering that a good portion of their knowledge was destroyed or lost by Gravid, quite a bit of Bane's knowledge being included in that, seeing as the Ritual of Essence Transfer was among the lost techniques.

And it's funny that you say that Sidious praises their knowledge as if it puts them above Bane when he considers one of Bane's works to be a cornerstone in the Banite Sith archives tbh.

Originally posted by AncientPower
On the topic of Kun and Sidious, Kevin J. Anderson states a clash between the two would decide which one is the greatest Sith Lord. Furthermore narratorial statements have reinforced that with Kyp Durron facing something just as powerful as Luke had in his own trials with the Dark Side. These comparisons are consistantly maintained right up until Specters of the Past throughout a series of books.

Yeah and who else aside from Kun would be a contender for the #2 spot on the darkest points Luke had ever known or whatever?

Originally posted by AncientPower
Now you want to continue using your pretty much retconned Fact File statement? Because Fact File maintained that Exar Kun, not Darth Bane, was the most powerful of all Sith Lords, until that was retconned by Darth Sidious being the most powerful. Obviously that is no longer applicable to a discussion with Darth Sidious or Vitiate, but Darth Bane is still 'fair game' as you put it.

Want to stop using a clearly no longer relrvant Fact File accolade or you want to concede to that? You choose.


Retconned? The statement came out in 2014 LOL Want to concede to me or continue to embarrass yourself? You choose.

Expect a reply today, source checking is a b!tch.

Yeah, it's hard to find those gloss hardback editions. 👆

As if you're even relevant to this debate anymore, shouldn't you be blowing Ell?

Given his lack of response, probably the opposite.

Ellimist blows himself

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Given his lack of response, probably the opposite.

i'm sorry for not replicating your earlier timely response, kek

Again apologies for the delay, my post is quite lengthy and I want it fully sourced up.

Exar Kun has unearthed a trove of Sith alchemical lore left behind by the original group who fled here to the fourth moon of Yavin.
- Tales of the Jedi
Now, beneath the ancient temples on Yavin Four he penetrates the hidden world of Sith magic.
- Tales of the Jedi

There was an entire chamber of Sadow's works that Freedon Nadd did not uncover, as it was guarded by the Sith Wyrm. Exar Kun is stated to have learnt all thatvthere exists to know about Sadow's teachings:

Exar Kun has learned all there is to know of the teachings of Naga Sadow.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Exar Kun didn't simply renew Sadow's work, he advanced it:

Furthermore, he realized that Naga Sadow had not gone far enough when he altered the Massassi. While they made excellent forest warriors, they were not prepared for the highpowered ordnance they would have to face when fighting the forces of the Republic. Exar Kun rejoiced when he discovered the giant alchemical machine that had belonged to Naga Sadow. At last, he had the means to shape his Massassi servants as he needed them, and he knew just the Massassi on whom he could experiment: Zythmnr, the priest who had ordered Kun to be sacrificed.

The Sith disciple first altered Zythmnr physically, fusing the old priest's skin with metallic bioarmor and enhancing the Massassi's skeletal structure and musculature accordingly. Vicious claws became razored gauntlets, thick hide became hardened plating, and Zythmnr's head was encased in a shelled helmet. The process was excruciating for the Massassi. He not only survived, but also continued to worship Kun, willfully insisting the experiments continue.

Exar Kun was more than happy to comply. He took his next step: infusing his new warrior with the dark side using some of his own physical makeup as a template. When Zythmnr readily took to the treatment-and even showed potential with Force skills-Kun chose several more "volunteers" to continue his work. Before long, he had several dozen living weapons that exuded the raw power and energy of the dark side. Upon feeling their power firsthand, the Jedi called them "abominations." Kun would take many of these bestial servants on his quests for Sith knowledge. In a few cases, he even left a handful of his favorite warriors behind to terrorize any that might oppose him. While the Jedi believed that all of the Massassi abominations died with their people, there may yet be descendants of this hideous species stranded on some remote, forgotten world.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook

Infact he outshines Sadow's mastery:

When the tainted Jedi Exar Kun later commanded the Massassi to expand the temples, he altered many of these beasts even further as a test of his new-found Sith abilities. The battle hydra is an example of Exar Kun's alchemical mastery and Naga Sadow's dark legacy.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Exar Kun's Sith alchemy forever altered these creatures' physiology, giving them many unusual traits. For example, Kun introduced ancient Sith armor alloys into their basic physiology at the molecular level, reducing damage against attacks-even lightsaber attacks.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
Exar Kun combined the natural venom from many different creatures when he mutated his original hydras. When the battle hydra hits with its stinging tail whip, a hooklike stinger injects acidic poison into the victim. This foul toxin is capable of destroying most of the victim's nervous system from the inside out within a matter of minutes.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook

He also created Terentateks:

Exar Kun’s power grew. He ordered the Massassi to build immense temples and to seek out Naga Sadow’s lost battleship. He also used Sith alchemy to create horrific monsters, including terentateks that hungered for the blood of Force users.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic - Galactic History 55 - Ascension of Exar Kun

He even invented new Sith alchemies:

An extremely powerful figure now, Kun dabbled in dark side alchemy, creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood. He invented a glowing golden sphere that trapped the children of the Massassi and allowed him to feed off their energies.
- The New Essential Chronology
Exar Kun had also constructed a Sith superweapon, the Dark Reaper, that was capable of drawing in the life energies of thousands of combatants. Ulic unleashed the Dark Reaper against hundreds of Republic troops on the outpost of Raxus Prime.
- The New Essential Chronology

Exar Kun's own knowledge of sorcery, which was more advanced than Naga Sadow's, didn't survive him:

The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere(Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers).
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

So no, whilst Bane may have obtained a holocron of Freedon Nadd, the depth of knowledge obtained and expanded by Exar Kun simply is not there.

As far as the Great Library on Ossus is concerned:

"The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice."
-Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135
The emergency efforts of all the Jedi can barely scratch the surface of the knowledge entombed on Ossus.
- Tales of the Jedi
Much has been forgotten in recent wars, and I fear that greater troubles shall stem from that loss of knowledge in the future. The destruction of the_Jedi Academy_on Ossus_near the_Cron Drift_in the_Sith War… All these things are in danger of being lost forever.
-Mical, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Home to the_Jedi_for countless generations, Ossus safeguarded vast libraries and storehouses of artifacts.
- The Old Republic Codex Entry Galactic History 50
Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.
- Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Volume #2

The Great Library of Ossus is implied to have been the single greatest collection of works ever gathered in the Jedi Order, so much that a year of evacuation would be lacking. Exar Kun gathered all the greatest pieces of this collection, from the Chamber of Antiquities to be specific.

So Darth Revan had uncovered a planetary storehouse of Sith knowledge, which he may or may not have studied in its entirety, an unlikely prospect given the vastness of such a collection. Said studies he may or may not have inserted in his holocron.

The Darth Revan Holocron also does not contain information on Vitiate's knowledge base. It merely contains a ritual inspired by Vitiate's Nathema event based on Revan's recordings.

Meanwhile Exar Kun makes away with more knowledge than he could ever need, including but not limited to Sith Holocrons that Odan-Urr had personally gathered from across the Sith Empire during its final days.

This is Sith knowledge complemented with the Dark Holocron, which contains more stated knowledge than any Sith holocron ever known.

This isn't counting the Tedryn Holocron which Exar Kun studied in secret as a Jedi, a Holocron which Darth Sidious required to pry the Essence Transfer technique from and was considered to have incredibly dangerous knowledge, including techniques such as Sever Force.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force serves as a window into the knowledge contained within the Tedryn Holocron and Exar Kun had access to it until stopped entirely by Vodo Siosk-Baas.

Darth Bane:
>Darth Revan's Holocron
>Sorzus Syn's Holocron
>Korriban Archives

Exar Kun:
>Uncovered the storehouse of Naga Sadow
>Dark Holocron
>Significant portion of Great Library of Ossus
>Tedryn Holocron
>Dantooine Archives
>A pioneer of sorcery.
>One of the greatest masters of alchemy ever.
>More advanced than even Naga Sadow.
>Knowledge base died with him.

I think the most knowledgable between the two is plain and simple.

I'll respond anywhere from today to Friday. Dealing with some graduation shit this week so if it takes me a couple days that is almost assuredly a reason.

Man, that Tedryn Holocron though. Didn't realise it was so OP.

But is it pump-a-rum?

Originally posted by AncientPower

There was an entire chamber of Sadow's works that Freedon Nadd did not uncover, as it was guarded by the Sith Wyrm. Exar Kun is stated to have learnt all thatvthere exists to know about Sadow's teachings:


None of this proves that Freedon Nadd himself didn't possess all of Sadow's knowledge, and there are in fact three quotes stating or implying that Nadd did in fact acquire all of Sadow's knowledge. Two of them I already provided, then there's the one stating he possessed knowledge of all powers in Tales of the Jedi content:

Kun not getting all of Sadow's knowledge from Nadd is your counter to this, but it is entirely possible Nadd's spirit didn't bequeath all of his knowledge to Kun before being destroyed, and sure you could argue this is speculative thought, but your argument includes this type of logic, as it would be suggesting Nadd didn't get all of Sadow's knowledge from Sadow's spirit. The difference is, what I am saying now doesn't contradict any quotes, whereas you suggesting Nadd didn't have all of Sadow's knowledge does.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun didn't simply renew Sadow's work, he advanced it:

Infact he outshines Sadow's mastery:

He also created Terentateks:

He even invented new Sith alchemies:


Most of this Sith Alchemy you mention is already present in Sorzus Syn's holocron however, including Battle Hydras, Terentateks, and Tuk'ata.

Massassi Abominations weren't alchemically created creatures Sorzus Syn's holocron would've possessed knowledge on, however unlike Kun, Syn is confirmed to have knowledge on the creation of Silooth, Warbirds, War Behemoths, Hssiss, Chrysalides, War Wyrms, Rakghouls and most importantly the creation of Leviathans (the leviathan thing is all the more impressive considering Syn was creating them well before her peak in knowledge, since she hadn't discovered the Sith species yet).

And as far as infusing creatures with metal goes, Bane would have similar knowledge of this from Belia Darzu's holocron, who created a technobeast virus that would transform its victims into enslaved creatures made up of combative technology and flesh that could be spread through particles that can be released from the mouth of any technobeast.

Also as far as protective alchemy goes, Darth Revan demonstrated the knowledge to imbue robes with Sith power and alter them in such a way that they would help the wearer channel dark side energy, and their power was such that the Jedi considered them an abomination and destroyed them for their terrible power:

Knights of the Old Republic
Created by the mystical technology of the Star Forge, these robes focus the dark side energies of the wearer, fueling their power. The Sith Lord Darth Revan was wearing similar robes when captured by the Jedi, who viewed the garments as an abomination and destroyed them. However the Jedi Council, not being familiar with the origins of the robes, were unaware that the Star Forge would be capable of producing an item of such terrible power a second time.

The Golden Globe is not included within Sorzus Syn's holocron either, but very similar knowledge (possibly the same knowledge) was possessed by Freedon Nadd, who created a crystal to trap the spirits of his enemies and feed off of their energy:

Very similar knowledge is also possessed by Sorzus Syn, who experimented with the Heart of Graush, which was stated to be used to store the souls of enemies to be fed off of for energy.

The Dark Reaper is a very fair point, however Bane possesses knowledge of various weapons and super weapons, such as the Malachor knowledge Revan used to sway various Jedi to the Dark Side in the middle of a battle, the thought bomb ritual, the Ruusan surface devastation ritual, knowledge of the Star Forge, knowledge of force powered Rakatan technology, knowledge of Sith meditation spheres, and knowledge of the Helm and Heart of Graush (stated to grant the user of both command over the Forces of nature). Not to mention Sorzus Syn also created the three great talismans (one of the two weaker ones being the Murr talisman, which evidently wasn't even the best she had to offer as an alchemist).

Originally posted by AncientPower
Exar Kun's own knowledge of sorcery, which was more advanced than Naga Sadow's, didn't survive him:

Except this quote isn't even a definitive statement first of all, with "unlikely" not being a certainty. Secondly, the dark side teachings Kun acquired not having any records elsewhere is blatantly contradicted by both Freedon Nadd's holocron, and the fact that the Dark Holocron survived throughout the millennia.

Originally posted by AncientPower
So no, whilst Bane may have obtained a holocron of Freedon Nadd, the depth of knowledge obtained and expanded by Exar Kun simply is not there.

Well he obtained the knowledge of Nadd and Sadow, and much of the knowledge Kun expanded upon is contained within other sources of knowledge Bane acquired, and some of these sources had knowledge Kun never displayed or that was similar to knowledge of Kun's that wasn't present in Bane's sources. Particularly, Bane possessed a considerable amount of knowledge regarding Sith rituals and arcane knowledge from Revan's holocron (containing a transcript for the most complex sith ritual ever attempted and various other rituals of terrible and awesome potential) and Syn's holocron (who eclectically acquired knowledge from a wide variety of sources from Sith magicians powerful enough to leave behind spells capable of severely impacting her, despite her being powerful and knowledgeable enough to have created leviathans well before that point).

Originally posted by AncientPower
As far as the Great Library on Ossus is concerned:

The Great Library of Ossus is implied to have been the single greatest collection of works ever gathered in the Jedi Order, so much that a year of evacuation would be lacking. Exar Kun gathered all the greatest pieces of this collection, from the Chamber of Antiquities to be specific.

So Darth Revan had uncovered a planetary storehouse of Sith knowledge, which he may or may not have studied in its entirety, an unlikely prospect given the vastness of such a collection. Said studies he may or may not have inserted in his holocron.

The Darth Revan Holocron also does not contain information on Vitiate's knowledge base. It merely contains a ritual inspired by Vitiate's Nathema event based on Revan's recordings.

Meanwhile Exar Kun makes away with more knowledge than he could ever need, including but not limited to Sith Holocrons that Odan-Urr had personally gathered from across the Sith Empire during its final days.

This is Sith knowledge complemented with the Dark Holocron, which contains more stated knowledge than any Sith holocron ever known.

This isn't counting the Tedryn Holocron which Exar Kun studied in secret as a Jedi, a Holocron which Darth Sidious required to pry the Essence Transfer technique from and was considered to have incredibly dangerous knowledge, including techniques such as Sever Force.

Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force serves as a window into the knowledge contained within the Tedryn Holocron and Exar Kun had access to it until stopped entirely by Vodo Siosk-Baas.


So what you are pointing out here for Kun is the Dark Holocron, the Tedryn Holocron, the Ossus Library, and various other holocrons.

First of all, these various other holocrons are more than matched by the several Sith holocrons discovered by Sorzus Syn and Darth Revan, as well as the ancient Rakatan Artifacts Revan uncovered which Kun isn't know to possess anything similar to, as he is never stated to have anything even remotely resembling an affiliation with anything related to the Rakatans.

Secondly, you claim the Dark Holocron has more knowledge than any other Sith holocron, yet you are honestly understanding the text relating to the Dark Holocron. The quote doesn't say that the Dark Holocron had over a hundred thousand years worth of Sith Knowledge, merely that the holocron possessed knowledge dating that far back, which again is something answered by Sorzus Syn's holocron possessing the knowledge of the Sith Species, particularly knowledge of easily some of the most prominent members of the Sith Species prior to the arrival of the original dark lords.

Third you levy the accusation that Revan wouldn't have possessed all of the knowledge from Malachor, yet this very same accusation could be levied at Kun and the Ossus library, and even moreso considering Exar Kun died the very same year he had uncovered the knowledge from the Ossus library, whereas Revan had a few years during his reign as dark lord to go through the knowledge of Malachor. And quite frankly the amount of knowledge possessed in a "planetary store of Sith knowledge" is more impressive than the amount of knowledge in any of these sources you mentioned in this part of your post for Kun. The quality of the Malachor knowledge is further reaffirmed by it being the basis for Nihilus's power, much of Traya's knowledge, various advanced draining techniques, and corruptive techniques, such as the ones from the Trayus academy Revan used to corrupt Jedi fighting near Malachor from the surface of the planet. Not to mention in regards to Jedi Knowledge, Revan was stated to have learned everything the Jedi Masters in his order could've possibly taught him prior to becoming a Sith, and upon that Banite Sith acquisition of the Syn holocron, the Jedi unknowingly placed a spying device disguised as Syn's holocron in the Jedi archives, which would've granted Bane access to a considerable amount of Jedi knowledge.

And as long as we are talking about the quality of knowledge possessed in holocrons, the Tedryn holocron possessing knowledge related to essence transfer is of little relevance when Bane himself uncovered the full technique from Andeddu's holocron. Not to mention if we're arguing based on quality and details of knowledge, Revan's holocron possessing a transcription of the most complex Sith ritual ever (because Revan was stated to have recorded the transcription for that ritual itself, and regardless, the thought bomb is still a more advanced ritual than any Kun has ever been shown to have knowledge of tbh), and one of the less powerful rituals within the holocron was still powerful enough to devastate most the surface of Ruusan and reduce its massive jungles and forests to ash.
actually hold considerable worth to the original topic of the thread.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Darth Bane:
>Darth Revan's Holocron
>Sorzus Syn's Holocron
>Korriban Archives

Exar Kun:
>Uncovered the storehouse of Naga Sadow
>Dark Holocron
>Significant portion of Great Library of Ossus
>Tedryn Holocron
>Dantooine Archives
>A pioneer of sorcery.
>One of the greatest masters of alchemy ever.
>More advanced than even Naga Sadow.
>Knowledge base died with him.

I think the most knowledgable between the two is plain and simple.


You see the fact that you didn't mention Freedon Nadd's holocron under Bane's section, despite the fact that we had been talking about it for a considerable amount of time in this debate, already leaves me pretty concerned with the quality of your comparison here. And also, you give Kun empty credits just to make his list seem longer, such as "a pioneer of sorcery" "one of the greatest masters of alchemy ever" "more advanced than Naga Sadow" that apply to many people Bane acquired knowledge from, and the fact that Kun's knowledge base died with him doesn't speak to the volume of Kun's knowledge and is based on a non-definitive quote.

Nadd/Sadow's knowledge (Even)
Bane:
>All of Sadow's knowledge (contained in Nadd's holocron)
>Nadd's teachings (from Nadd's holocron)

Kun:
>All of Sadow's knowledge (stated to possess it)
>Nadd's teachings (from Nadd's spirit)

Jedi knowledge (advantage to Kun due to the Ossus Library)
Bane:
>Jedi Knowledge from Githany
>Jedi Knowledge from Nadd
>Jedi Knowledge from Revan (Revan learned everything he could from the Jedi before turning)
>Spying device in the Jedi Archives

Kun:
>Jedi Knowledge from Nadd
>Portion of Ossus Library
>Training under Vodo

Sith alchemy (if anything there's an advantage to Bane based on a side by side comparison tbh)
Bane:
>Knowledge of Battle Hydras, Terentateks, and Tuk'ata. (Syn holocron)
>Knowledge of Silooth, Warbirds, War Behemoths, Hssiss, Chrysalides, War Wyrms, Rakghouls and Leviathans (Syn Holocron)
>Alchemical enhancements similar to Massassi abominations, ie. power focusing robes (Revan's holocron), technobeast virus (Belia Darzu's holocron), and alchemical enhancement of Sith (brotherhood).
>Knowledge of the Heart of Graush and entrapping crystal used by Nadd
>Knowledge of alchemical superweapons such as the Star Forge and various other Rakatan artifacts, the Helm and Heart of Graush, Sith meditation spheres (Revan's holocron and Syn's holocron)
>Knowledge of alchemy as advanced as that of the great amulets (Syn holocron)

Kun:
>Knowledge of Battle Hydras, Terentateks, and Tuk'ata.
>Knowledge of Massassi Abominations
>Knowledge of the Golden Globe
>Knowledge of the Dark Reaper

Other Sith knowledge (there's a much larger edge for Bane here than there is for Kun in any other category, mainly due to the knowledge contained in Darth Revan's holocron)
Bane:
>A ton of Sith holocrons and knowledge acquired by Revan and Sorzus Syn, as well as in the Jedi archives with the spying device
>A planetary store of Sith knowledge
>Rituals of widespread destruction including the thought bomb ritual
>the full essence transfer ritual
>knowledge dating back far into the history of the Sith preceding that of the first Dark Lords (Syn holocron)

Kun:
>A ton of Sith holocrons in the Ossus library
>Knowledge related to essence transfer (tedryn holocron)
>knowledge dating back far into the history of the Sith preceding that of the first Dark Lords (dark holocron)

Much of Kun's knowledge is either also held by Bane, or Bane has other sources of very similar, and sometimes greater knowledge. On the other side of the coin however, much of the knowledge Bane received from Darth Revan's holocron really is unmatched by any source of knowledge unique to Kun, as Revan's holocron possessed knowledge from a planetary store of Sith knolwedge, Rakatan knowledge, knowledge of various advanced techniques and rituals of widescale destruction, such as the thought bomb/nathema ritual transcription (the most complex ritual ever attempted), the ritual devastating the surface of Ruusan, the technique used with the trayus academy to corrupt several Jedi to the dark side in the middle of a battle. This knowledge possessed in Revan's holocron really is the biggest difference between the two, as they both possess Jedi knowledge (with Kun admittedly having the edge due to the Ossus library, though this is much more than compensated for in the long run by the vastness of the Malachor knowledge), both possess the knowledge of Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow, both possess ancient sith knowledge dating far back, and both possess extremely advanced alchemy knowledge.

From a comparison of their knowledge, the quality, quantity, and uniqueness of the knowledge in Darth Revan's holocron Bane acquired is truly the biggest difference in knowledge between the two and one that falls within Bane's favor. And this is a point that might have bearing on the original topic of the thread as a matter of fact.

Why is the knowledge of Revan's clothes included as a bullet point? Getting the feeling that the number of bullet points you're putting in isn't exactly an accurate representation of their comparative knowledge. Not that the other one was, really.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why is the knowledge of Revan's clothes included as a bullet point? Getting the feeling that the number of bullet points you're putting in isn't exactly an accurate representation of their comparative knowledge. Not that the other one was, really.

I meant that to be a specific counterpoint to Kun's Massassi abominations, alongside the technobeast virus and alchemical enhancement of Marauders within the brotherhood, though fair point about having that as its own bullet point, I edited and merged it with the other things I was using to counter the massassi abominations into a single point just as the abominations on Kun's end were a single point.

For a glaring start, you're completely ignoring the fact Bane never once utilised that alchemical knowledge due to his own lack of ability in using them.

Comparatively, Exar Kun is one of the single greatest sorcerers of all time, even more advanced than Naga Sadow had been, who himself was considerered to be one of the greatest of all time.

Bane has approaching Kun's sorcery knowledge, but has nothing even close to resembling mastery and understanding.

He was just as helpless against Zannah's tendrils as Luke was to Kun's, there is a very obvious flaw in your argument and I'll be following that up even further soon.

The claim that Freedon Nadd has all that knowledge is a game mechanic represented specifically within his profile in that sourcebook. It isn't indicative of Nadd's actual knowledge, which is entirely based on learning under Sadow's shade, shortly after packing up and heading to Onderon.

Whereas Exar Kun had full access to all the mysteries and knowledge Sadow's trove represented, something Nadd never uncovers and the source of all of Sadow's experimentations. Then Exar Kun becomes a great sorcerer than Sadow himself.

Furthermore as previously stated, Bane never achieves any mastery over the knowledge he obtains:

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah.
-Darth Plaguies

Comparatively Exar Kun was an inventor, a revolutionary, he was a natural prodigy and one of the single greatest masters ever known:

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook

So Darth Bane certainly does not compare to Exar Kun in terms of Sith alchemy and sorcery. Exar Kun actually practiced and evolved the arts of alchemy, creating that which neither Sadow or Nadd have ever replicated before.

And as long as we are talking about the quality of knowledge possessed in holocrons, the Tedryn holocron possessing knowledge related to essence transfer is of little relevance when Bane himself uncovered the full technique from Andeddu's holocron.

The Tedryn Holocron is a far more potent piece of knowledge than you realise:

One such victim was Ashka Boda, possessor of the famed Jedi(Tedryn) Holocron itself. With this artifact in his(Palpatine's) grasp, he had little need for any more living Jedi, save as pupils. He sifted this lore till he could find every secret he needed to continue his studies.
- Dark Side Sourcebook
Because the Holocron contained other prophecies as well as seemingly infinite data about the Jedi, its value was incalculable.
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

This is the same holocron Exar Kun studied in secret behind the back of Vodo Siosk-Baas whilst Vodo was away. Considering Palpatine's raid of the Jedi Archives in the Jedi Temple had already occurred; it can be inferred that this ancient device contained more valuable information than the achives at their prime did.

This is only further reinforced by the trove of information he recieved from the Great Library, considered to be the greatest collection of Jedi works. So those are two vast sources of Jedi knowledge and techniques that neither Revan or Bane ever touched. Infact the supposedly great knowledge of Darth Andeddu, Essence Transfer, that Bane later recovers, is within the Tedryn Holocron itself, where Sidious gleams Essence Transfer from:

Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the_ancient Sith_Lords_survived death to haunt their tombs.
-Darth Plagueis

All of this information is supported by forgotten lore and knowledge dating back to far before the arrival of Sorzus Syn and the other Jedi Exiles, extremely potent knowledge at that:

the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and_alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi_exiles on Korriban.
-Darth Plagueis
Odan-Urr kept this Sith Holocron for nearly a millennium before it was stolen by the Jedi Exar Kun, who used it to learn many secrets of the Sith.
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Locked within it's recesses, accessible only to a Dark Lord of the Sith, are the forgotten histories and lore, dating back a hundred thousand years and more.
- Odan-Urr, Tales of the Jedi
Secondly, you claim the Dark Holocron has more knowledge than any other Sith holocron, yet you are honestly understanding the text relating to the Dark Holocron. The quote doesn't say that the Dark Holocron had over a hundred thousand years worth of Sith Knowledge, merely that the holocron possessed knowledge dating that far back, which again is something answered by Sorzus Syn's holocron possessing the knowledge of the Sith Species, particularly knowledge of easily some of the most prominent members of the Sith Species prior to the arrival of the original dark lords.

Given that the Jedi Exiles are certainly not a 100,000 years old, I'm going to have to assume you're wrong.

So Darth Bane's single greatest discovery is one Exar Kun had not one but two sources to learn said technique from.

and the fact that the Dark Holocron survived throughout the millennia.
During the Clone Wars, the former Jedi Count Dooku—at the time, one of only twenty Jedi Masters known to have renounced the Jedi Order—stole at least one Sith Holocron from the Archives on Coruscant and also acquired the Sith Holocron of Darth Andeddu. Like Exar Kun, Count Dooku became a Sith Lord; while it is conceivable that the respective experiences and personality traits of both individuals guided their paths to the dark side, the possession of Sith Holocrons certainly directed their courses as well. Records do not reveal the fate of the Sith Holocrons used by Exar Kun and Count Dooku.
-Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

So not only does this guide refer to them as separate holocrons, it's impossible for the holocron to have survived Exar Kun:

You claim Darth Revan's holocron is some kind of Sith holy grail when really it just contains knowledge from Malachor V, which is really just knowledge from an Empire that Kun already has the primary source of information about.

I'd also point out that this Path of Destruction Darth Bane we're debatimg as that is the incarnation of Darth Bane supposedly more masterful and powerful than Exar Kun. The validity of this statement, or moreover the lack of any, is my point of contention.

Apologies for the image break, KMC hates editing atm.

I think there's an equally fair argument for Kun/Bane being more knowledgeable. I'd say they're about the same, more or less - it's really a negligible difference and nowhere near as big as the mascots here are suggesting with their waving flags.

On one hand, Kun being an actual Sorcerer and Alchemist allows him to divulge all of Nadd's secrets, whereas Bane admitted in RoT that he couldn't understand all of them and instead left some transcriptions for Zannah to study. To that end, we know that Bane's gleaned knowledge about Orbalisks and presumably a bit more, but most of the sorcerous applications explored in Nadd's holocron would be foreign to him. Kun's ability to comprehend all of Nadd's teachings in great detail means that he has the teachings of Sadow and Adas under his belt, since Nadd harnessed knowledge from both. Whatever Nadd failed to obtain from Sadow (if there was anything), Kun picked up as well, so that makes him one of the most knowledgeable Dark Lords already. Bane read some of Sadow's treatises during his time in the Academy, but his sorcerous illiteracy means that he can't comprehend much of Sadow's teachings. It's also worth noting that Bane read a variety of other material in the Academy archives in PoD.

Bane counters by having built up an entire library of Sith artifacts (ie. tomes, holocrons, etc.), including at least Belia Darzu's and Darth Andeddu's holocrons. There's also him having access to the Sorzus Syn holocron as per BoS, and again, whilst he doesn't understand Sorcery and Alchemy in the way Kun does (not to mention Syn's knowledge probably being a more primitive version of Sadow's/Nadd's), it's still a respectable amount of knowledge. We don't know too much about what else he possesses, but we know it's considerable, so suffice to say, this at least equalizes the field, if not puts him in front. Then we have Bane studying Darth Revan's holocron - and though he didn't fully understand everything immediately, he was still capable of utilizing several of the rituals and other techniques (ie. Detoxify Poison, Drain Life) from Revan's holocron, which we know contained knowledge from the Malachor archives, including Zelashiel the Blasphemer or whatever his name was.

That said, Kun is the beneficiary of having trained as a Jedi under Baas, which makes it probable that he studied from the Jedi archives. Above all, though, he reaped the benefits of the sacking of the Ossus library, which would've rewarded him very handsomely with hidden Jedi and Sith knowledge alike. Considering that the Great Library is stated to have contained knowledge from across centuries, it's not hard to consider it the equal of Bane's library or perhaps even its superior in terms of stored knowledge. And as mentioned by others, there's also the Dark Holocron take into account in favor of Kun.

Not seeing a gaping disparity here. Were I to give anybody the edge in terms of knowledge, it'd be Kun, but only because he's an actual Sorcerer and Alchemist. With respects to obtained information, they're roughly equal.