Originally posted by Nephthys
I just told you about a Guard who'd killed over a dozen Sith Lords. 😬
Yeah, it's a one-off mentioned in some obscure entry that BioWare won't even remember about because they threw it in recklessly to make the IG's look good. I'm inclined to take what we have on paper, which is Yarri being no match for a trained Sith Lord as per the novel.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Revan kicks one whilst T3 shoots him, but doesn't kill him, the Guard just falls over.
Originally posted by AncientPower
It even says that three others besides the two Surik initially engages at the door, are present:Then Revan blasts the doors open and slays the one intercepting him, he percieves another six Imperial Guards on the far side of the hallway and drops an arch on them.
T3-M4, his electrical circuits instantly processing the situation, reacted by firing off his built-in blaster; the beam struck the soldier square in the chest. At the same time, Meetra threw herself at the two guards standing in front of the doors to the throne room, her lightsaber materializing in her hand.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Then;
One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Revan killed this guard.
Two down! Four remaining.
Then;
It wasn't enough to block the passage, but it did buy Scourge and Meetra a few precious seconds to complete their retreat into the chamber. They crossed the threshold, still engaged with Captain Yarri and the three surviving Imperial Guard that had escorted them to the throne room.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
And this was the situation afterwards:
Captain Yarri's skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge's attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.
Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Originally posted by AncientPower
Lord Scourge continues to face Captain Yarri until they move towards the throne room, so unless you're claiming that the other three Guards simply ceased to exist, they attacked Meetra before one split off to face Lord Scourge. Once they enter the throne room Meetra had evidently killed two others and then Scourge observes her slaying the last two as he finishes Yarri.
The puzzle is that there were seven in total. However, Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik fought two Imperial Guards each while retreating into the throne room. Reminder:
It wasn't enough to block the passage, but it did buy Scourge and Meetra a few precious seconds to complete their retreat into the chamber. They crossed the threshold, still engaged with Captain Yarri and the three surviving Imperial Guard that had escorted them to the throne room.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
One is missing in the count.
Among the two Imperial Guards that Meetra Surik initially confronted, one broke-off to face Revan and was killed by him. Therefore, it can be inferred that Meetra Surik killed the lone Imperial Guard. And she faced two more afterwards.
Originally posted by SunRazer
So because you have a preconceived notion of where Obi-Wan lies, then get proven wrong on it, you now put Qui-Gon lower just because Obi-Wan's near him? How about cutting your losses and putting them both higher? Because Qui-Gon's better than novel Scourge in every facet - feats, accolades, the whole nine yards. Obi-Wan being his near-equal means that it's not as outrageous as you're suggesting for him to be in Scourge's league, if not his equal.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's things like this that make you get called out for being biased. As Temp would say, you're relying entirely on me being charitable towards your arguments but you're not willing to extend that same charity to me - or in this case, you're not willing to extend the same logic to TOR characters.
Look at some of the recent threads:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625981.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625728.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625974.html
Some of the most ridiculous assumptions have been made in them in a while and you are among the guilty. But I am biased... 🙄
Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah. If the Guards can't beat an average joe Sith Lord on their own, then any noted Jedi/Sith warrior's above them, let alone somebody with unquestionably superior accolades and showings like Anoon Bondara. Bondara performed against Maul about as well as the top Guard did against Scourge, and Maul's way better than Scourge. So Bondara kicks in an average Imperial Guard's shit.They need to be in big numbers to be as effective as their hype suggests. On their own, or in paltry groups, they're not that impressive.
Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Ordinary soldiers do not even register to Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.
Lord Scourge, in particular, killed two bounty hunters in a confrontation and also killed Darth Xedrix (along with his apprentices) in another confrontation earlier.
But Lord Scourge lost to Darth Nyriss, he must be terrible. 🙄
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Qui-Gon is better than Lord Scourge in every facet? Any individual of note he had killed earlier aside from sparring with Anoon Bondara?
Firstly, given how easily you subscribe to hype, the fact that Anoon Bondara was reputably the most skilled Jedi in the Order should put him pretty high on your list, and Qui-Gon beating him is above any feat Scourge has to bear. The same goes for contending with Maul - Scourge has nothing on that.
I restore balance in the debates here with my alternate point-of-view. If me and a few others had not become heralds of TOR campaign, people would be assuming that every character in TOR era with the exception of Valkorion and Revan is a mook. A few continue to underestimate Valkorion and Revan as well.
Blatant fanboyism to the point of repeated double standards is not restoring balance, that's hilarious.
Look at some of the recent threads:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625981.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625728.html
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t625974.html
Some of the most ridiculous assumptions have been made in them in a while and you are among the guilty. But I am biased... 🙄
Uh, you're biased beyond the comparison of any user here, except Carthage/Elli when it comes to Bane. The whole forum knows that, lol. Don't try to roll your eyes or play innocent.
And who are you to call people out for making ridiculous assumptions? I mean, everybody's been laughed at for posting their opinion before, but you've literally made memes out of yourself.
Here:Ordinary soldiers would have been chopped down before they could even draw their weapons, but the Imperial Guard were not so easily felled.
From [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
[/b]
Beautiful. What does that have to do with anything?
Ordinary soldiers do not even register to Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik.
I didn't say they were ordinary soldiers. Ordinary soldiers would be low-tier fodder, not elite fodder.
And you think that's something to write home about? Qui-Gon's dodged a fodder's attack and disarmed him before anyone could even take a breath. Anyone worth mentioning can move imperceptibly fast/blitz fodder.
Lord Scourge, in particular, killed two bounty hunters in a confrontation and also killed Darth Xedrix (along with his apprentices) in another confrontation earlier.
I've read the novel, lol. That's not as good as any of Qui-Gon's showings - by a long shot.
But Lord Scourge lost to Darth Nyriss, he must be terrible. 🙄
If there's a part of my post where I even remotely insinuated that, please, quote it, because right now, you're just humiliating yourself.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Firstly, given how easily you subscribe to hype, the fact that Anoon Bondara was reputably the most skilled Jedi in the Order should put him pretty high on your list, and Qui-Gon beating him is above any feat Scourge has to bear. The same goes for contending with Maul - Scourge has nothing on that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Blatant fanboyism to the point of repeated double standards is not restoring balance, that's hilarious.
Everybody is biased here (including you).
Originally posted by SunRazer
Uh, you're biased beyond the comparison of any user here, except Carthage/Elli when it comes to Bane. The whole forum knows that, lol. Don't try to roll your eyes or play innocent.And who are you to call people out for making ridiculous assumptions? I mean, everybody's been laughed at for posting their opinion before, but you've literally made memes out of yourself.
Now, I will elaborate with an example that how fair a judge you really are.
A member recently asserted that Count Dooku would smoke Darth Angral, Darth Baras and Darth Lachris combined:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lel, Dooku schools these clowns.
Such statements are fair and balanced, right? 🙄
I don't see you calling him out on his extremely objective observation. 🙄
You are not a fair judge and you don't have the right to call me biased in the light of your own double-standards. Keep your petty judgments to yourself.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Beautiful. What does that have to do with anything?
Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say they were ordinary soldiers. Ordinary soldiers would be low-tier fodder, not elite fodder.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And you think that's something to write home about? Qui-Gon's dodged a fodder's attack and disarmed him before anyone could even take a breath. Anyone worth mentioning can move imperceptibly fast/blitz fodder.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I've read the novel, lol. That's not as good as any of Qui-Gon's showings - by a long shot.
Originally posted by SunRazer
If there's a part of my post where I even remotely insinuated that, please, quote it, because right now, you're just humiliating yourself.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDWhy would Nova call me out on a reasonable and justified assertion. 🙂
A member recently asserted that Count Dooku would smoke Darth Angral, Darth Baras and Darth Lachris combined:Such statements are fair and balanced, right? 🙄
I don't see you calling him out on his extremely objective observation. 🙄
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anoon Bondara was the most skilled Jedi in the Order according to whom? Start substantiating your claims.
"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."
-- Jedi Academy Training Manual
So what constitutes as being fair and balanced in your opinion? When somebody agrees with your perspective only?
Hardly. Sounds more like something to attribute to you, to be honest. I have debates with people all the time without calling them biased. It's usually a pretty extreme case when I call them out for that.
Everybody is biased here (including you)
Of course. Some are more biased than others, though.
Now, I will elaborate with an example that how fair a judge you really are.A member recently asserted that Count Dooku would smoke Darth Angral, Darth Baras and Darth Lachris combined:
Such statements are fair and balanced, right? 🙄
I don't see you calling him out on his extremely objective observation. 🙄
It's not like I called someone out in that thread after he posted it and then ignored it completely. I didn't post anything in the thread afterwards. But if that's what you want, Dooku destroying them all is ridiculous.
You are not a fair judge and you don't have the right to call me biased in the light of your own double-standards. Keep your petty judgments to yourself.
This isn't a double standard, and as you requested, I "condemned" Beni's post. Are you happy now?
And please, please, please never call somebody out for double standards. Except to say that you do it better than them.
Imperial Guards are not fodder?
Relative to some they are, but regardless, a random IG on his own isn't much compared to any of the greats.
There is not such thing as elite fodder.
There is to me, because I don't see all no-namers as equal.
And this showing puts him in the TIER of Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik at maximum.
What are you talking about? You gave me a quote about how Scourge and Surik could blitz fodder - I responded by saying Qui-Gon could do the same and cited an instance to support that.
Guess what? You 'opinion' matters little.
If only you applied that to yourself. Time to start taking less of the drugs and more of your own advice.
So on what grounds you are assuming that Lord Scourge is inferior to even Episode 1 Obi-Wan Kenobi?
Yet again you humiliate yourself by failing to keep up with the discussion. You said it was nonsense that Obi-Wan was even in the same league as Scourge - I argued otherwise and that's still where we're at. This is what I said:
Obi-Wan being his near-equal means that it's not as outrageous as you're suggesting for him to be in Scourge's league, if not his equal
Which, if you need clarification, just means that it's not ridiculous for Scourge and Obi-Wan to be in their same tier. The furthest I've gone is say that Obi-Wan might be his equal. I never said Scourge is inferior to Obi-Wan. And the "grounds" I've based my argument on are entirely clear - that he's a near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn, who is Scourge's better as per his superior feats and accolades. You didn't even address that - you just said "your opinion matters little", which sounds like a half-baked concession to me considering that we're in a debate and that this is a contest of opinions.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look at this quote! Its sense making and proves my point!This quote makes no sense, obviously utter dumb!
Lmao Neph.
Everyone knows that SF writers, or writers in general, have no sense of scale or time. No one takes Travis' quote about 3 million clones seriously. Everyone also knows that Karpyshan is an incompetent.
The statement that they have months of training doesn't directly contradict them possessing unmatched martial skill in the Empire or that they are it's premier fighting force. It's reinforced repeatedly in TOR in the codex, the encyclopedia and their appearances in the game.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, it's a one-off mentioned in some obscure entry that BioWare won't even remember about because they threw it in recklessly to make the IG's look good. I'm inclined to take what we have on paper, which is Yarri being no match for a trained Sith Lord as per the novel.
TOR is the primary source. Karpyshans novel is just a supporting source for the game, after all. TOR also came out afterwards and so can revise things that Drew was mistaken about in favor of their more solid vision. Their statements are also a lot more reliable than Drew "I wrote a entire chapter with Carth in it but oops, I forgot to put it in the book" and "People are concluding that Bane won the duel of wills at the end? Whaa??? How could people possibly come to that view just because Zannah starts acting like him afterwards" Karpyshan. Also are you just trying to flat out deny that the guy was that good? Because lol, he canonically killed over two dozen Sith Lords (and 6 Jedi).
That's just Scourges opinion, bro. Not a solid statement.
Originally posted by Nephthys
TOR is the primary source.
They're both C-Canon in the old hierarchy, but any difference in TOR would be considered a retcon of Karpyshyn's account of things anyway. Which does happen a fair bit, since, you know, BioWare doesn't have any coherence with itself and keeps contradicting its own writers.
Karpyshans novel is just a supporting source for the game, after all.
Sure, but I'd take something on-panel over some dubious accolade.
Their statements are also a lot more reliable than Drew "I wrote a entire chapter with Carth in it but oops, I forgot to put it in the book" and "people are concluding that Bane won the duel of wills at the end? Whaa???
True, Drew contradicts himself as well. Which is why he sucks.
Also are you just trying to flat out deny that they guy was that good? Because lol, he canonically killed over two dozen Sith Lords (and 6 Jedi).
No, I'm saying something on-panel takes precedence, as always. And just because one guy did this doesn't mean every Imperial Guard can do it.
That's just Scourges opinion, bro. Not a solid statement.
Well, it was clearly substantiated by Yarri not being a match for Scourge even when drawing on the Emperor's power and with a fellow Guard by her side and with Scourge distracting himself.
Originally posted by SunRazer
They're both C-Canon in the old hierarchy, but any difference in TOR would be considered a retcon of Karpyshyn's account of things anyway. Which does happen a fair bit, since, you know, BioWare doesn't have any coherence with itself and keeps contradicting its own writers.
Which is their prerogative, since the Empire was their creation. With Drew just going off of their cliff-notes for the novel.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sure, but I'd take something on-panel over some dubious accolade.
Accolades. Lassicar's statement is supported by the codex entry on the Imperial Guard, the encyclopedia entry on them and their in-game hype. All of which support the idea that they are Mando-tier and beyond in their abilities and can hang with Jedi and Sith. Even in the book they were noted to be fast enough to keep up with Meetra in terms of speed.
Originally posted by SunRazer
True, Drew contradicts himself as well. Which is why he sucks.
👆
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I'm saying something on-panel takes precedence, as always. And just because one guy did this doesn't mean every Imperial Guard can do it.
Naturally. But the other statements saying that they can hang with powerful Jedi and Sith do mean it. It's not like Lassicar was the leader of the Guard either, like Yarri was. And I was responding primarily to your assertion that the Guard is no match for a Sith Lord. This random member was a match for over 2 dozen of them. 🙂
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, it was clearly substantiated by Yarri not being a match for Scourge even when drawing on the Emperor's power and with a fellow Guard by her side and with Scourge distracting himself.
Which only indicates how impressive Scourge is. Which was the original point.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is their prerogative, since the Empire was their creation. With Drew just going off of their cliff-notes for the novel.
Actually, the Empire was created when Obsidian referenced them in KotOR II. That set up TOR.
👆
We finally agree on something. Then again, Drew's more or less second to Denning and Traviss in stupidity.
Accolades. Lassicar's statement is supported by the codex entry on the Imperial Guard, the encyclopedia entry on them and their in-game hype. All of which support the idea that they are Mando-tier and beyond in their abilities.
Naturally. But the other statements saying that they can hang with powerful Jedi and Sith do mean it. It's not like Lassicar was the leader of the Guard either, like Yarri was. And I was responding primarily to your assertion that the Guard is no match for a Sith Lord. This random member was a match for other 2 dozen of them. 🙂
Is this all of them at once, or over time?
Which only indicates how impressive Scourge is. Which was the original point.
Actually, the quote's from a third-person analysis of the situation. So yeah, it applies.
No, Bioware already established the Sith existance in Kotor 1. Canderous states they pushed the Mando's into war. Obsidian fleshed out the idea of a True Sith threat, unseen at that point. Bioware then took the idea and created the actual details about who they were and what they were. So it's their idea's that form concepts like the Imperial Guard. So they get to establish shit about them.
I'm not sure any Non-Force sensitive could take out over 2 dozen Sith Lords at once, lmao.
And nah, the whole thing is from Scourges perspective. It's a limited third-person's statement.
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."-- Jedi Academy Training Manual
Lord Scourge have relatively superior hype:
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Lord Scourge's peers/superiors were reluctant to even spar with him because of his skills.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Hardly. Sounds more like something to attribute to you, to be honest. I have debates with people all the time without calling them biased. It's usually a pretty extreme case when I call them out for that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Of course. Some are more biased than others, though.
Next time you accuse me of being biased, I'll remind you this.
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not like I called someone out in that thread after he posted it and then ignored it completely. I didn't post anything in the thread afterwards. But if that's what you want, Dooku destroying them all is ridiculous.
Kindly declare Beniboybling biased as well.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Relative to some they are, but regardless, a random IG on his own isn't much compared to any of the greats.
Yes, a few Sith and Jedi will nearly stomp a lone Imperial Guard but some would loose to one as well. On average, an Imperial Guard is on par with a well-trained Jedi and/or Sith.
Originally posted by SunRazer
What are you talking about? You gave me a quote about how Scourge and Surik could blitz fodder - I responded by saying Qui-Gon could do the same and cited an instance to support that.
Originally posted by SunRazer
If only you applied that to yourself. Time to start taking less of the drugs and more of your own advice.Yet again you humiliate yourself by failing to keep up with the discussion. You said it was nonsense that Obi-Wan was even in the same league as Scourge - I argued otherwise and that's still where we're at. This is what I said:
Which, if you need clarification, just means that it's not ridiculous for Scourge and Obi-Wan to be in their same tier. The furthest I've gone is say that Obi-Wan might be his equal. I never said Scourge is inferior to Obi-Wan. And the "grounds" I've based my argument on are entirely clear - that he's a near-equal to Qui-Gon Jinn, who is Scourge's better as per his superior feats and accolades. You didn't even address that - you just said "your opinion matters little", which sounds like a half-baked concession to me considering that we're in a debate and that this is a contest of opinions.
@Legend - I was about to respond, but I skimmed the first point and it already gave me cancer. Read the freaking quote. It says "unmatched in the Order". That's not something every Jedi joe in the PT era has. "One of the best" and "the best" aren't the same - get it through your head.
And you asked me who perceived Bondara as the best in the Order, and I answered you with the quote. You then underline "perceived" like I had no idea what I was talking about. I know who's factually the most skilled Jedi of the time - Yoda. I'm saying that some consider Bondara to be the most skilled Jedi of his time, which is a really good accolade as far as reputation's concerned. Academy instructors being reluctant to face Scourge doesn't mean the square root of jack shit in comparison.
As for all the bias crap - of course everyone's biased. Some are simply more biased, like you.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Bioware already established the Sith existance in Kotor 1. Canderous states they pushed the Mando's into war. Obsidian fleshed out the idea of a True Sith threat, unseen at that point. Bioware then took the idea and created the actual details about who they were and what they were. So it's their idea's that form concepts like the Imperial Guard. So they get to establish shit about them.
As far as I know, there was no hidden Sith Empire identity in the original KotOR, just that there were Sith. The first time it was actually mentioned was in KotOR II.
I'm not sure any Non-Force sensitive could take out over 2 dozen Sith Lords at once, lmao.
Precisely. Him killing them individually over time in suspect circumstances doesn't make him all that great.
And nah, the whole thing is from Scourges perspective. It's a limited third-person's statement.
Seems like it switches to Scourge's perspective after the first paragraph, but I'll check again tomorrow. It's past midnight here.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Legend - I was about to respond, but I skimmed the first point and it already gave me cancer. Read the freaking quote. It says "unmatched in the Order". That's not something every Jedi joe in the PT era has. "One of the best" and "the best" aren't the same - get it through your head.And you asked me who perceived Bondara as the best in the Order, and I answered you with the quote. You then underline "perceived" like I had no idea what I was talking about. I know who's factually the most skilled Jedi of the time - Yoda. I'm saying that some consider Bondara to be the most skilled Jedi of his time, which is a really good accolade as far as reputation's concerned. Academy instructors being reluctant to face Scourge doesn't mean the square root of jack shit in comparison.
As for all the bias crap - of course everyone's biased. Some are simply more biased, like you.
Lord Scourge's accolade is not from the perspective of anybody but authoritative. He is affirmed as an expert swordsman who wields his weapon with such level of expertise it that it appears to be an extension of his will. His skills are such that even his instructors became reluctant to spar with him at some point. This is an impressive accolade (not something you come across very often).