Anakin Skywalker vs. Exar Kun

Originally posted by MythLord
What movie did you watch?

https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=61

Well firstly, you said "and then" when what actually happens is Anakin goes first. And secondly, Anakin catches Dooku by surprise midswing. Dooku then recovers and utterly overpowers Anakin.

Originally posted by MythLord
So Asajj floors him with TK(which lesser Force users have done to more powerful ones dozens of times) so that means Anakin is a bad Force user now? Also let's not forget that it's non-canon. It's about as valid as Maul pinning Sidious. LOL. Let's not forget Anakin in his prime would dominate Asajj any day of the week.

I wasn't aware that it was a deleted scene. And I didn't say it made Anakin bad, just nowhere near Dooku.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Just the same way as Maul should be capable of TKing Sidious and holding him against a wall?

They went to the trouble of actually animating the scene. It was cut due to time constraints. They obviously thought that Anakin and Ventress by that point in time were relative peers.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In means he definitely surpassed him, which is what you argued he didn't, don't change the goal posts now.

And the quote establishes it my friend, plain and simple, as does the fact he goes from getting handily defeated by Dooku in combat then one-shotted by his powers in AoTC, to giving him almost no advantage less than a few months later, to then giving Dooku difficulty mid-Clone Wars and shrugging off his Force powers, to ultimately surpassing and defeating him. In three years, that's prodigal growth, because he's the Chosen One lmao.Erm, by looking up the dictionary definition of vast? 😬

Their isn't a specific measurement for vast Beni. :/ And vast means different things to different people including the person who wrote the quote.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nice ignoring that Ventress wasn't in her prime either. Lol.

That feat is utterly irrelevant, and its not even canon.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Their isn't a specific measurement for vast Beni. :/ And vast means different things to different people including the person who wrote the quote.

adj. Very great in size, number, amount, or quantity.

You want something more specific? Go quantify what Anakin's stompage of Dooku in RotS amounts to. 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because Ventress experienced the same growth as Anakin. 😂

That feat is utterly irrelevant, and its not even canon.

Given her various showings throughout the Clone Wars and the fact that she was trained by both Dooku and Talzin and was seen as a threat by Sidious within a few years of the Clone Wars I'd say it'd be at least comparable.

Lol its not comparable at all. 😬

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol its not comparable at all. 😬

Interesting opinion.

My opinions>

Originally posted by Syndicate
How did I prove your point? You were trying to say he was angry all the time in almost all of his fights. At least stick to the topic at hand.

Because Anakin's "conflicting emotions" rarely ever weaken him in combat, but it often does strengthen him(like when his fury held behind the walls of will allowed him to damn near dominate Dooku, all prior to getting enraged).

Originally posted by Syndicate
0_o We're not talking about Mace... We're talking about Anakin.

And I'm saying Anakin's feat is better. Focus.

Originally posted by Syndicate
The text infers that Obi Wan was going to counter it if it hadn't been so sudden otherwise it would have mentioned something like Dooku's power being too much for him.

But we don't know if the power was too much or not since Obi couldn't counter. If he tried, the end-result is something we do not know. But given how whipcracks of Dooku's power dispatched Kenobi... yeah, I doubt Kenobi would be breaking free of Dooku's hold. Especially when near-Kenobi level Force users like Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress get telekinetically manhandled by the Count.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Also if Obi Wan couldn't counter a grip/choke because it was so "sudden" I imagine a "whipcrack" of power would be too fast for Obi Wan to have countered as well.

Here's the problem: in the situation that was "too sudden" Obi was sneaking up behind Dooku and was not expecting anything. In the "whipcrack" example, he's literally staring at him. Besides, Force users like Kas'im have errected Barriers at an instant, so I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan could do that, especially when he's dueling one of the most powerful Sith ever and staring him right in the face.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Nice ignoring that Ventress wasn't in her prime either. Lol.

Nice ignoring that it's non-canon and prime Anakin can dominate prime Asajj, KEK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well firstly, you said "and then" when what actually happens is Anakin goes first. And secondly, Anakin catches Dooku by surprise midswing. Dooku then recovers and utterly overpowers Anakin.

He doesn't catch him by surprise, and he doesn't utterly overpower him. He redirected a telekinetic wave and knocked Anakin back, he was given a similar treatment as Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't aware that it was a deleted scene. And I didn't say it made Anakin bad, just nowhere near Dooku.

Yet Anakin, even at this time, is near Dooku. Not his superior, but he is near him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In means he definitely surpassed him, which is what you argued he didn't, don't change the goal posts now.

And the quote establishes it my friend, plain and simple, as does the fact he goes from getting handily defeated by Dooku in combat then one-shotted by his powers in AoTC, to giving him almost no advantage less than a few months later, to then giving Dooku difficulty mid-Clone Wars and shrugging off his Force powers, to ultimately surpassing and defeating him. In three years, that's prodigal growth, because he's the Chosen One lmao.

Uh, what? How exactly does it "definitely" do that? It doesn't.

Did they change the meaning of vastly to become way the **** more specific while I wasn't looking? Does it now mean "way more than Kenobi power and change"? Because once again, Dooku was pushing back Anakin and Obi-Wan together shortly before RotS. Where the hell are you pulling this certainty that Anakin "definitely" greatly eclipsed Dooku in power as of RotS when, as you yourself admit, theres a complete absence of evidence to that claim? Its a non-specific term, ya goof.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Neph, given your Scourge vs. Obi Wan arguments, I find it amusing that you've finally grasped the concept of quantifying growth curves. You are, steadily, gaining elementary abilities. This pleases me.

As for putting him vs. Dooku, the narrator says that Tyranus's mastery of the Force is rendered a joke against Anakin.

I've been quantifying growth curves since before you even watched Star Wars, whelp. I simply consider it such a basic ability it isn't necessary to explain most of the time.

Because Anakin just dominated him in melee without his mastery being brought to bare. His mastery is a joke because it becomes irrelevant to the outcome. Anakin hasn't ever outdone Dooku with the Force prior to becoming Vader.

Originally posted by MythLord
Because Anakin's "conflicting emotions" rarely ever weaken him in combat, but it often does strengthen him(like when his fury held behind the walls of will allowed him to damn near dominate Dooku, all prior to getting enraged).

And I'm saying Anakin's feat is better. Focus.

But we don't know if the power was too much or not since Obi couldn't counter. If he tried, the end-result is something we do not know. But given how whipcracks of Dooku's power dispatched Kenobi... yeah, I doubt Kenobi would be breaking free of Dooku's hold. Especially when near-Kenobi level Force users like Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress get telekinetically manhandled by the Count.

Here's the problem: in the situation that was "too sudden" Obi was sneaking up behind Dooku and was not expecting anything. In the "whipcrack" example, he's literally staring at him. Besides, Force users like Kas'im have errected Barriers at an instant, so I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan could do that, especially when he's dueling one of the most powerful Sith ever and staring him right in the face.

Nice ignoring that it's non-canon and prime Anakin can dominate prime Asajj, KEK.

He doesn't catch him by surprise, and he doesn't utterly overpower him. He redirected a telekinetic wave and knocked Anakin back, he was given a similar treatment as Dooku.

Yet Anakin, even at this time, is near Dooku. Not his superior, but he is near him.

It did in LoE. It did in his fight against Dooku. It did in his fight against Obi Wan. It did in his fight against Obi Wan in the Clone Wars. It did when he rushed headlong at Dooku in AotC. It did in a number of other fights.

The demonstration of power is better sure. But why would Mace use more power then he has to to simply push the ATET off the cliff?

Oh and this.

The text suggests otherwise though you're free to interpret it how you will.

Vos and Ventress at the points they were dominated by Dooku telekinetically were not in their prime.

Apparently not given the text and actual events. Congrats. You've proved Obi Wan is slower to erect telekinetic defenses then Kas'im. ( I'm sure Emp will be happy to hear this. )

Nice ignoring that it was an animated scene cut for time and that Anakin has never demonstrated superiority over Ventress in their relative primes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, what? How exactly does it "definitely" do that? It doesn't.

Did they change the meaning of vastly to become way the **** more specific while I wasn't looking? Does it now mean "way more than Kenobi power and change"? Because once again, Dooku was pushing back Anakin and Obi-Wan together shortly before RotS. Where the hell are you pulling this certainty that Anakin "definitely" greatly eclipsed Dooku in power as of RotS when, as you yourself admit, theres a complete absence of evidence to that claim? Its a non-specific term, ya goof.

Vastly is a specific enough term for us to logically conclude that is not the gap between TCW Anakin and Dooku, when the former is pressing him in combat and shrugging off his lightning, let alone in excess of that, anyone with a brain can work that out.

How Dooku pushing Anakin and Obi-Wan back in TCW is at all relevant to that is beyond me considering post-AotC Anakin did that to Dooku in the movie, its really not at all as impressive a feat as you are making it out to be.

And what? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I was pointing out your use of a logical fallacy, not conceding a point. 😂

That said, I find it amusing you continue to hand wave Dooku getting exhausted just by blocking his attacks as evidence of Anakin's superiority, "cause combat".

Alright. Going to the mountains. See you all in a few days.

Originally posted by Syndicate
It did in LoE. It did in his fight against Dooku. It did in his fight against Obi Wan. It did in his fight against Obi Wan in the Clone Wars. It did when he rushed headlong at Dooku in AotC. It did in a number of other fights.

It hindered him against Dooku because Dooku used Dun Moch. Malgus won't be shit-talking Anakin, he's not one to goad.

The demonstration of power is better sure. But why would Mace use more power then he has to to simply push the ATET off the cliff?

It still shows Mace have a lot more trouble than Anakin, though. Which is the major point.

The text suggests otherwise though you're free to interpret it how you will.

The text doesn't suggest anything, though. But this is down to semantics.

Vos and Ventress at the points they were dominated by Dooku telekinetically were not in their prime.

Neither was Dooku, and Dooku dominated her on Vjun in 19 BBY(both were amped) and dominated both in Dark Disciple which is also in 19 BBY. So yeah, canon or Legends he dominates them.

Apparently not given the text and actual events. Congrats. You've proved Obi Wan is slower to erect telekinetic defenses then Kas'im. ( I'm sure Emp will be happy to hear this. )

You mean the text where you cherry pick and place the context of one quote onto another that has no bearing on it? Stop being ridiculous.

Nice ignoring that it was an animated scene cut for time and that Anakin has never demonstrated superiority over Ventress in their relative primes.

Nice ignoring how it's still not canon and doesn't matter. And he did dominate her, lol:

https://youtu.be/1dfnkLaYfh0?t=48

Actually, in this situation, Anakin was further from his prime than Asajj.

@Beni :

What part did I misquote and which argument did I circumvent?

Also I think you might need to edit that second line because I'm finding it had to figure out what "that is not the gap" means. Are you..... agreeing with me???

I'll respond after you've clarified.

My entire response where I said what I just had to effectively repeat?

i.e. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15731248#post15731248

And I mean that the gap between TCW Anakin & Dooku is evidently not at all vast.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh I get it, you so intentionally misquoted me so you could circumvent my argument and reassert your point. Nice.

Vastly is a specific enough term for us to logically conclude that is not the gap between TCW Anakin and Dooku, when the former is pressing him in combat and shrugging off his lightning, let alone in excess of that, anyone with a brain can work that out.

How Dooku pushing Anakin and Obi-Wan back in TCW is at all relevant to that is beyond me considering post-AotC Anakin did that to Dooku in the movie, its really not at all as impressive a feat as you are making it out to be.

And what? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I was pointing out your use of a logical fallacy, not conceding a point. 😂

That said, I find it amusing you continue to hand wave Dooku getting exhausted just by blocking his attacks as evidence of Anakin's superiority, "cause combat".

Now that I understand your poorly worded response, vastly could easily be applied to the gap between Dooku and TCW Anakin in terms of power. He's consistently smacked him around with the Force. That Anakin "shrugged off" his lightning, as in he got his ass kicked by it and it completely turned the tables on him, doesn't mean much considering Dooku's lightning is his least impressive attribute.

As I said, Anakin got Dooku in the middle of a lightsaber swing, he wouldn't be in a position to block it very well. When he gathered himself, he pwned Anakin right back. Sure, Dooku pushing Anakin wouldn't prove that great an advantage. But Dooku's done it consistently and in the case I'm talking about he did it to Anakin AND Obi-Wan. Pushing back one person may not mean you're better than that person. Pushing them and someone else back at the same time, while also flattening everyone around them, however, says quite a lot about their respective abilities. Especially considering Dooku did it very casually while defending against a dozen assailants.

I'm aware. But when you are making an argument, the fact that your argument lacks any evidence means that your argument lacks merit. You cannot prove or support your point if all you've got is your opinion of what "vastly" means.

Anakin's physical strength doesn't translate into TK.

Neph, do you seriously think that Anakin could have made Dooku's mastery of the Force useless...through his muscles? lol wut?

I think he made his mastery of the force useless by grabbing his arm and cutting his hands off, tbh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Now that I understand your poorly worded response, vastly could easily be applied to the gap between Dooku and TCW Anakin in terms of power. He's consistently smacked him around with the Force. That Anakin "shrugged off" his lightning, as in he got his ass kicked by it and it completely turned the tables on him, doesn't mean much considering Dooku's lightning is his least impressive attribute.

Regardless no, Dooku blasting Anakin with his lightning at point blank range, then again at point blank blasting him away with telekinesis into a pillar, without even affecting a KO and having Anakin get up literally 5 seconds later is a point in Skywalker's favour, not Dooku's. Especially considering Dooku barely overwhelmed him with TK just prior.

As is Dooku having four elite Magnaguards electrocute Anakin simultaneously to weaken him enough for a ragdoll, and still struggle to render the guy unconscious with his powers.

That doesn't suggest a vast gap, that suggests Anakin is increasingly approaching his power, as it's intended to. Dooku hasn't legitimately smacked Anakin around since Geonosis.

As I said, Anakin got Dooku in the middle of a lightsaber swing, he wouldn't be in a position to block it very well. When he gathered himself, he pwned Anakin right back.

Yah, that's another point in Skywalker's favour. A big one.

Sure, Dooku pushing Anakin wouldn't prove that great an advantage. But Dooku's done it consistently and in the case I'm talking about he did it to Anakin AND Obi-Wan. Pushing back one person may not mean you're better than that person. Pushing them and someone else back at the same time, while also flattening everyone around them, however, says quite a lot about their respective abilities. Especially considering Dooku did it very casually while defending against a dozen assailants.

I'm aware. But when you are making an argument, the fact that your argument lacks any evidence means that your argument lacks merit. You cannot prove or support your point if all you've got is your opinion of what "vastly" means.

Anakin's physical strength doesn't translate into TK.

Reserves that Dooku was utterly incapable of combating with his own. 👆