Kas'im vs Plo Koon

Originally posted by Emperordmb
>Suggests knowledge of lightsaber forms doesn't mean shit in a fight
>Immediately afterwards says Plo will defeat Kas'im because of his "evolved" understanding of Djem So :/

Likewise the fact that Kas'im possesses a wider knowledge of the seven styles doesn't prove he's advanced any one of those styles to such a level that it could beat Plo's Form V. Your point is moot.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Must it be spelled out? Cin Drallig has more knowledge of lightsaber combat that Obi-Wan, he'd still lose in a fight, because Kenobi's technique is better.

Likewise the fact that Kas'im possesses a wider knowledge of the seven styles doesn't prove he's advanced any one of those styles to such a level that it could beat Plo's Form V. Your point is moot.

Lel, how about you read the past few pages. I'm going to bed.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So what proves Plo's Form V is advanced beyond the level of any of Kas'im's styles?

A thousand years of improvement. Now it's a question of individual refinement and to what extent any disparity in that interacts with Kas'im's wider breadth of mastery and Plo's advantage of successive improvements. We have no idea. This is just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@dmb

It's only logical that forms would develop new strikes and such as Jedi find new sources of knowledge.

Remember, Juyo didn't come into play until the beginning of Kotor 2. Thus we can't say that a typical Juyo master from that era(ex Atris) is in any feasible way on par -in terms of mastery- with Bane or someone like Bulq.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Dismissing this for the moment, you have to acknowledge that there's no feasible way Kas'im could have mastered everything there was to know about lightsaber fighting, because each style is personal, each style is unique, and each Jedi can gear their style into a complete unique and unorthodox thing.

For example;

A shien specialist using shien to duel.(Gallia)

Ataru user fighting multiple opponents(Yoda, QGJ, Quinlan)

Ataru user fighting a prolonged battle(QGJ, Xanatos, Yoda)

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
In my humble opinion, whenever the quote about being the best is ever mentioned, I think of it as. "He mastered everything there was to master... at the time"

Just my two cents, is all.

The fugging Force is the answer. The fugging FORCE. Who gives a shit about forms? Srsly? A form is just an instruction manual. It tells you what is up and down. This is strike zone 1, this is strike zone 2. Strike zone 3 and 4 you will find by the legs.

What the instruction manual doesn't tell you is how to attack those zones in the most creative, unpredictable or efficient way. I mean, it gives you textbook principles, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to perfect a sequence.

Where the Force comes in is when it occurs to someone like say, Baney Stu, to attack Zone 2 from a 0000.45 degree angle while flipping the bird at a baby and throwing an ice skate, for no reason other than "the Force told me to a millisecond ago". In other words, the forms are rendered a stepping stone for a higher level of combat to surface, as dictated by the participant's strength in the Force.

The only way technical knowledge can provide an edge against a more powerful foe is if the opponent is well and truly ignorant of what he's fighting against.

We don't have the kind of information on every single duelist to know whether or not they know how X or Y fights and whether or not that'd be an issue, but given that the only time this knowledge-deficit thing has surfaced was with Bane fighting something he had never fought before in his short time spent training, opposed to Jedi Masters like Plo with decades of experience and training, I doubt it'll matter.

You'll notice I wasn't saying that was why Kas'im wins. I'm just saying arguing a technical edge for Plo because he lived in a later era is bullshit.

@ILS 👆 not sure why people are talking about raw technical mastery in and of itself.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You'll notice I wasn't saying that was why Kas'im wins. I'm just saying arguing a technical edge for Plo because he lived in a later era is bullshit.

If anyone bothered to pay attention to my post, I wasn't arguing that Kas'ims technical knowledge gives him the win (though having far more versatility, techniques and strengths to draw upon obviously gives you a massive advantage). I was arguing that Kas'im has demonstrated superior aptitude to lightsaber combat and more talent with it than Plo Koon has. I mean, Kas'im mastered every lightsaber form in a few years. That's pretty dang prodigious. And then he spent decades perfecting every move until he was obsessively intimate with all aspects of the forms. And he created thousands of techniques for all forms across seemingly all styles. That's amazing. Ellimist mocking it as "trainee" stuff is blatantly idiotic. There's a difference in training someone in Kung Fu and inventing Kung Fu. Someone who can take thousands of years of an art and completely revolutionise it is a martial arts genius, no questions asked.

Though I will note how hilarious that now that it's Kas'im mastering all forms it's all totally irrelevant. But for the past decade+ everyone has slobbered all over Yoda and Sidious for doing the same. 😆

Bane dies

Nexus

Behold: The Superior Intellect!

lol I was just copying your "try to respond to a long post with a sassy one liner" tactic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was arguing that Kas'im has demonstrated superior aptitude to lightsaber combat and more talent with it than Plo Koon has. I mean, Kas'im mastered every lightsaber form in a few years.

Where does it say he mastered it in a "few years"? 😬

That's pretty dang prodigious.

Not by the standards of the PT elite, not really. There are plenty of PT duelists who have mastered all of the lightsaber forms. Pretty much everyone who knows juyo has, lel.

And then he spent decades perfecting every move until he was obsessively intimate with all aspects of the forms. And he created thousands of techniques for all forms across seemingly all styles. That's amazing.

This isn't something an upper tier PT duelist couldn't do with some time, lmao. Vader was already inventing his own form through a combination of multiple different fighting styles within weeks of being put in a suit; Kas'im has had decades to invent "thousands" of moves, which really isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be.

And your attempt to accuse us of strawmanning you doesn't fly. You have engaged with us on the question of whether Kas'im's sheer technical talent, if it exists, is enough to overcome 1000 years of dueling innovation and general power creep. We know that this happened for a sh*tload of reasons, particularly the very quote that you decided to kindly shoot yourself in the foot with. Even if Kas'im is more "prodigious" and "innovative" than Plo Koon, the fact of the matter is that he's dealing with someone whose forms are a thousand years more advanced. And it's not like because Plo Koon hasn't mastered every form himself, he doesn't know how to defend against other ones - he's presumably sparred with Jedi using other forms, just like all of the Jedi at this time did. Dooku, for example, was intimately familiar with the waeknesses and habits of ataru, despite not using it himself. There's no reason to think that Kas'im's 1000 year old forms will do him any good.

At this point, Plo Koon is good enough with a saber that any gap in the execution of his movements vs. Kas'im's are likely to have hit diminishing returns; you can only strike so perfectly. Kas'im can't really surprise him with that many oddballs, and if he can, it works both ways - Plo Koon has fewer moves, but this weighs against the benefit of hindsight. There's no reason to think Kas'im's alleged technical advantage will translate into much.

Originally posted by ILS
The fugging Force is the answer. The fugging FORCE. Who gives a shit about forms? Srsly? A form is just an instruction manual. It tells you what is up and down. This is strike zone 1, this is strike zone 2. Strike zone 3 and 4 you will find by the legs.

What the instruction manual doesn't tell you is how to attack those zones in the most creative, unpredictable or efficient way. I mean, it gives you textbook principles, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to perfect a sequence.

Where the Force comes in is when it occurs to someone like say, Baney Stu, to attack Zone 2 from a 0000.45 degree angle while flipping the bird at a baby and throwing an ice skate, for no reason other than "the Force told me to a millisecond ago". In other words, the forms are rendered a stepping stone for a higher level of combat to surface, as dictated by the participant's strength in the Force.

The only way technical knowledge can provide an edge against a more powerful foe is if the opponent is well and truly ignorant of what he's fighting against.

We don't have the kind of information on every single duelist to know whether or not they know how X or Y fights and whether or not that'd be an issue, but given that the only time this knowledge-deficit thing has surfaced was with Bane fighting something he had never fought before in his short time spent training, opposed to Jedi Masters like Plo with decades of experience and training, I doubt it'll matter.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I don't think it works that way. If that where the case Rage!Luke and Oneness!Rey would have demonstrated much more finesse than they did.

"Focus" mode is just PIS.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Focus" mode is just PIS.

Originally posted by ILS
Different circumstances, though they both got the job done. Anakin's a better example. Or Maul, or Kenobi when he goes into "focus" mode.

Maul, Kenobi and Anakin on the other hand all hand their wits about them, are are exceptionally trained combatants, hence their performance.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually Luke and Rey are the best examples, because they were entirely acting on instinct, and Rey in particular didn't have any techniques to draw upon and was in Oneness. This did not translate into any kind of skill. The Force did not tell them how to fight in the absence of thinking for themselves.

Maul, Kenobi and Anakin on the other hand all hand their wits about them, are are exceptionally trained combatants, hence their performance.

If anything they still further my point, despite the circumstances, because they were fighting opponents with greater training/experience and conventional skill than themselves and still won, because of the Force.

I'm not saying the Force translates into conventional skill/experience by default, obviously you need to train if you want that, but I'm saying once both combatants are fully trained, the only thing that matters outside of exceptional circumstance is the Force. Sometimes you don't even need to have as much training/experience as your opponent to outdo them with the Force, clearly. Kanan vs Grand Inquisitor is another good example of that.

Srsly. "The Force" will answer most questions in Star Wars.

Right but my point of contention is that the Force can't grant anyone any kind of technique or skill, only heightened precog, Force augmentation etc. which is why Rey and Luke defeated their opponents.

Altogether I do agree with your point that Force > technique, but not in the sense that Force = technique.