Re: Is Palpatine a universe buster?
I wonder what you people argued about here.
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet."
- The Comics Companion
Emphasis mine. Its the Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space - not Sidious. Sidious had just unleashed it. Where the difference is? Well. In the fact that the Force Storms aren't based on Sidious personal power - according to Sidious himself:
"Using this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.
Through a simple act of will, I can generate Force Storms, energy storms that are vastly destructive and virtually unstoppable. Although triggering such storms requires mere though and inclination, [b]I admit I am not yet able to completely control the phenomenon." - Darth Sidious, The Book of Anger, Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide through the Force, p.179.
Emphasis mine.
Sidious makes clear that the Force storms are not empowered by him as a person, but by the dark side energy surrounding everything. And while he can summon them at will (notice the lack of any mentioning of power coming from him for that particular act), he admits that he cannot control them.
So taking the potential power of such a force storm and attributing those to Sidious as a person is utter nonsense. As is calling him "universe buster" when the phenomenon is neither powered by him nor does he control it completely. That's like calling somebody "planet buster" who hits the red button causing a nuclear war that wipes out all life on a planet.
@Nai
1. He couldn't control them as of RotJ. He had gained control by DE.
2. The fact that he harnesses energies "around us" is hardly a mark against him; all Jedi are described as deriving their powers from the living Force, for example. It doesn't change the fact that he can do whatever if he harnessed some sort of energy field; as that energy is ubiquitous, there's no practical difference.
Originally posted by Petrus
Theoretically, Vitiate/Valkorion's planet-consuming powers should put him above Sidious in terms of raw power. However, if we judge each's powers by feats and accolades, Sidious is solidly above him in terms of pretty much everything. It frankly depends on point of view. Although, if applying these powers and abilities to a versus, Sidious would most likely come out on top, based on what we've seen of them so far in terms of combat.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Nai1. He couldn't control them as of RotJ. He had gained control by DE.
According to what source?
2. The fact that he harnesses energies "around us" is hardly a mark against him; all Jedi are described as deriving their powers from the living Force, for example. It doesn't change the fact that he can do whatever if he harnessed some sort of energy field; as that energy is ubiquitous, there's no practical difference.
In this particular case, the application in question is - per statement of its user - entirely disconnected from the personal power of the aforementioned user. Sidious himself makes sure, to describe the ability as a mere act of will, instead ascribing it to his force powers / force mastery. So I wonder why we should do the latter now. And if one wants to follow through with that kind of argument, than every character who has ever been described as archiving "oneness" or came close to it, must be rated as "universe buster" because he was - theoretically - wielding the full power of the Force at that point in time. So RotS Anakin = / > DE Sidious?
@The_Tempest:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
😐Technically all Force abilities involve harnessing an external, ubiquitous energy.
Spoiler:
It's called the Force.
Correct. And how much of the effect of those abilities is to be attributed to the Force? If Obi-Wan Kenobi lets the Force flow through him in order to rip some metal structure apart and drop it on a horde of droids (RotS novel) with the Force telling him exactly what to do and when to do it - is that a "feat" for Kenobi? The Force is, essentially, an omnipotent and omnipresent entity with an own will. Is it even possible to use the Force against the will of the Force? And if you can act in accordance with that will only when it comes to using Force abilities, then how much of them can be attributed to your personal skill?
And if lifting a grain of sand is harder to archive than lifting a stone (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), what do we base our judgement of certain force applications (in terms of "impressiveness"😉 on anyway?
@NewGuy01
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The semantics are irrelevant anyway. In application, being capable of causing a universe-threatening catastrophe at any time isn't practically any different from being able to do it directly, or sheerly by way of personal power.
Semantics are very relevant. Especially when the supposed "universe buster" happily proclaims that the aforementioned "universe-threatening catastrophe" is neither based on his power nor under his control completely. For me, to count as universe buster, you would need to be capable of destroying a universe with your own abilities - and instantly and controlled. Just setting things into motion that might - at point X in time - destroy the universe doesn't make you a universe buster. Sidious doesn't qualify. Neither does any other SW character.
Nai the Book of Anger as its depicted in the Book of Sith describes things differently:
"It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated in a single act of malice.
In time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. [...] Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom [...] This technique can be increased into a Force storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate."
--Book of Anger, Book of Sith
Evidently the power of the storm, attributed to "anger, combined with will" is that which is channelled and manifest through Palpatine's own body. And regarding the source that states Palpatine achieved mastery over this power:
Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.
--SW Handbook Volume 3: Dark Empire
Nai
Correct. And how much of the effect of those abilities is to be attributed to the Force? If Obi-Wan Kenobi lets the Force flow through him in order to rip some metal structure apart and drop it on a horde of droids (RotS novel) with the Force telling him exactly what to do and when to do it - is that a "feat" for Kenobi? The Force is, essentially, an omnipotent and omnipresent entity with an own will. Is it even possible to use the Force against the will of the Force? And if you can act in accordance with that will only when it comes to using Force abilities, then how much of them can be attributed to your personal skill?And if lifting a grain of sand is harder to archive than lifting a stone (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), what do we base our judgement of certain force applications (in terms of "impressiveness"😉 on anyway?
Some of those instances involve characters becoming conduits for the Force and its will. Most other instances involve characters simply using Force energy for their own ends.
Whether or not they are merely executing cosmic design in every scenario is unknowable and really beside the point.
That the Emperor harnesses external energies and unleashes their power through sheer will isn't anything to note because that's pretty much how everyone uses the Force in general lol.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Nai2. The fact that he harnesses energies "around us" is hardly a mark against him; all Jedi are described as deriving their powers from the living Force, for example. It doesn't change the fact that he can do whatever if he harnessed some sort of energy field; as that energy is ubiquitous, there's no practical difference.