Is Palpatine a universe buster?

Originally posted by Nai
And on what basis do you believe it?

Because it's a [Legends] canon source, and Leland Chee/EU canon continuity regulation tells us that we should believe sources unless they are contradicted?

Why do we believe that Anakin is named Anakin? Why do we believe that Exar Kun even existed? We take official literature as factual fiats of what happens and doesn't happen and what is and isn't in this universe; it's impossible to just say you "disbelieve" a factual rendition of an event.

"Dismissing" it is rather easy.
Perhabs on the basis, that it is not a source.
It is literature that already interpretes a source (the DE comics).
Which are in turn an interpretation of events as the really happened within the SW universe.

Actually, no, because it doesn't just work with the information from the comics, it also adds new factual events, such as the threat to consume all of space, and therefore counts as world building unto itself, and so it's a first principles thing; disputing it is like disputing that Anakin is Anakin because it would be "irrational".

It's not an argument or opinion piece, it's a created fact of the fictional universe.

So the original source can be wrong with its description of the events, and the literature interpreting the source can be wrong because of that or all by itself.

And given that there is nothing in the original source to even remotely assume that the Force storm was a threat to the universe, why would one the literature interpreting the events in the original source, which proclaims something like that out of nothing?

Because the policy is that sources are correct until falsified, not incorrect until corroborated. If it were the latter then adding new material to the universe would be pointless and you wouldn't be able to add anything.

Ah. Yes. Lack of any kind of literature interpretation skills or capability of thinking critically. My bad.

Sorry, but dismissing the official guidelines in favor of your opinion is not "thinking critically", it's just a fault in basic epistemology. You don't understand the distinction between opinions of a set of events and additions of facts to an in-progress universe where empirical facts can be fiated by certain authors.

Now, of course, if you can actually point out a significant contradiction, I'm all ears. But you're just appealing to your personal incredulity and trying to shift the burden of proof to us to corroborate it, as if literature can't add on new facts to existing works.

This is basically an inverse of "guns don't kill people, people kill people!"

Originally posted by Nai
Pardon me.
Did you want to shoot yourself in the knee, or was that happening by accident? So let me get this clear:

1)
The ability is not inherently "dark side", but a demonstration of [b]"natural power" just labeled "dark side" because of the "potential for abuse".

2)
There are more users of this than Sidious, apparently also within the lines of the Jedi Order.

3)
The Force is used "to open a hyperspace wormhole" and nothing else. It is not used to "sustain" the Force storm.

Thanks for kindly proving my point. 👆 [/b]

Here's another straw man for your ongoing collection. Where in the course of this conversation did I proclaim the Force storm to be an inherently dark side power and ability known only to the Emperor?

Furthermore, where is it said that the Force is used solely to create the wormhole and nothing else?

Spoiler:
Not that it matters anyway, since I don't recall claiming otherwise.

Originally posted by Nai
That storm was [b]"spawned by dark side anger"? Not the anger of the Emperor? Not his will? Not his force powers? Good god, Gideon. You're doing a rather good job with selectively reading the sources you post here, totally not seeing, that they actually completely dismantle your point. 👆 [/b]

lmao
I gave you a source that twice attributes the Force storms to the Emperor's "vast" and "own dark" power. I even extended the courtesy of underscoring the phrases in bold red and you still can't accept it.

Originally posted by Nai
Yeah. See above. Instead of reading source-material under the influence of confirmation bias, it would be a good idea to perform an analysis of it. Isn't it nice, that there is at least one person with reading ability present to help you out? 🙂

Your argument has thus far been comprised of red herrings, straw men, and wacky interpretations that contradict the source material.

The sources I provide explicitly state that the Force storms were a product of the Emperor's vast personal power. It's your confirmation bias that prevents you from acknowledging that.

By all means, continue to peddle the notion that the Emperor's Force powers don't count because he's using the Force.

But I'm going with what the evidence says rather than what you desperately want it to say. 👆

Wouldn't that suggest that nobody's Force feats are their own, since they're using, you know, the Force...

Originally posted by SunRazer
Wouldn't that suggest that nobody's Force feats are their own, since they're using, you know, the Force...

One would think.

Nah bro. Only Sheev. Quit being biased.

Originally posted by Nai
I didn't see any particular reason to adress this.

You claim that, the dark side anger being described here, and I quote "belongs to the dark side and not to its user" and yet it's instead stated that this anger is "funnelled through the body" of the user. Which frankly, irrespective of its origins, would still be entirely relative to the user's capacity as a Force wielder to channel that anger. Rendering your argument in that regard rather moot.

How do the Force users "express the Force emotionally"? They express their emotions. And where do those come from? From their own minds or from the host of parasites they carry around, called midi-chlorians, that ensure the very existance of life and a part of a higher power with an own will. This is, essentially, a theological debate. You could just as well ask me to "prove" that determination or fate exist (or don't).

As for where their emotions come from? Is this seriously a question?

Do you think Anakin's rage against the Jedi came from his midichlorians? Or Vader's love for his son? Kenobi's hatred towards Maul? When Sidious is taunting Luke does he say use your aggressive feelings or the aggressive feelings of the semi-sentient cells in his body?

There is hardly a debate to be had here, the answer is rather obvious. 😬

But heck even if we are to assume your correct, this logic would become applicable to all expressions of the Force, rendering your distinction rather redundant.

However: If an entity has a will then it must have feelings. Will cannot exists devoid of emotions. It is coined by them, led by them and expresses them through thoughts and actions. Why would the Force "act" at all, if being devoid of feelings? It certainly doesn't operate based on cold emotionless logic.

And that's a rather literal interpretation. Are you familiar with anthropomorphism? Will doesn't necessarily suggest sentience, only a level of design, and purpose. Just in the same way that your body has a "will" to fight off viruses, and is often anthropomorphised as such. The only thing we can concretely claim the Force strives for is balance, but that doesn't give it sentience or emotions, merely a natural state; and yes it does so in a cold, unbiased way, often at the expense of countless lives.

Because what is literally said, is that the anger in question belongs to the dark side and not to its user. Got it? So you deviate from what is written to establish what you think it means. If you would extend that modus operandi to the entire quote, this discussion here would be pretty pointless to start with, because it is pretty obvious, that the Force Storm in question did never even come close to be a threat to "all of space" as in "the entire universe". 😉

It doesn't matter, whether there is some kind of precedent in the lore or not. If you want to take the quote literal, then, I'm afraid, the anger does belong to the Dark Side and not the Force user.

On the other hand, its stated to be "funnelled through the body" and a product of "his own dark power" (the most explicit indication of ownership you could possibly get) statements you've blatantly ignored while having the hubris to accuse Tempest guilty of cherry picking in a frankly laughable display of hypocrisy and double standards! 😂

So save the cute smileys hon. 🙂

The question is not whether or not he uses the Force to summon them. The question is, whether or not the entire destructive capablities of the Force storm are to be attributed solely to the personal power of Sidious, because, if I may remind you, the question to answer here was: "Is Sidious a universe buster" and not "Could the Force storm, that Sidious summoned, have been a universe buster in theory?"

It would be kind if you wouldn't attempt to strawman me. Again: The question was, if the result of Sidious force use (the Force Storm) is solely powered by himself contrary to all describtions of the ability, including those Sidious gives himself.

Regardless of what your argument is this is stupid and wrong. 🙂

"Uh. It contradicts my opionion. I shall ignore it."

All of what Sidious says is a clear reference to the fact, that he doesn't power the Force storms himself. He "summons" or "triggers" them and then controls them but doesn't "empower" them. This is fairly obvious from the fact that he gets cut off from the final storm by the Skywalker twins and the storm keeps going, which shouldn't be the case if this was dependent on Sidious' personal power.

Important parts highlighted, Palpatine isn't harnessing the dark side energies "all around us" externally, he's channelling them through his own connection to the Force, a "portal" in his body. And not just for Force storms, but for basic powers like Force lightning, and Force kill. He's drawing on the Force that "surrounds and penetrates us" like any other Force user just in a more nuanced and masterful way. 👆

Regardless, what's important is the Force storm is described as a product of "his own dark power", so however its being "triggered", it's obvious that in order to maintain the storm it must be fuelled, by again, "his own dark power", otherwise it will dissipate.

Reinforcing for a final time that it does dissipate with the destruction of the wielder, in fact its stated so by the source material:

Which itself makes implicit a dependency on said wielder for a source of power.

Furthermore if they were fueled by Sidious' power, Sidious could just use the same amount of destuctive abilities in any other shape, making it entirely useless to summon those Force storms in the first place.

However, did you consider that maybe it would take a level of power and mastery Palpatine does not yet possess to condense this into a less unwieldly ability? A barely controlled explosion of energy should logically be a lot easier to pull off.

I seriously wonder, where you gathered the information about the exact working mechanisms of the "force maelstrom" ability.

"Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates "an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning."

Like so:

Or rather a self-evident combination of a Force barrier, Force lightning and telekinesis, all powers we know to be realised through the wielder, not externally.

Yes. It did dissipate.
The question is not whether or not it is dependent on the host, but in which way it is dependent on the host. Imho it works like this: The host channels the "outside" dark side energy through his body and into the storm. The storm keeps going, as long as it is "fed". This is why the storm died down rather fast, when Sidious was killed and this also explains why such a force storm could potentially consume all of space (because there is virtually limitless power available in the universe to "feed" it, when somebody is around to keep it going).

But if you want to take that and call Sidious a "universe buster" than anybody capable of destroying one grain of material with the Force is one - given enough (an infinite amount of) time.

And assuming anyone could feed it infinitely is silly even if your interpretation were correct. Using the Force requires exertion and strains the midichlorians in the body, eventually someone insufficient for the task would have succumbed to exhaustion, or been boiled inside out just by trying to channel that much power in the first place.

Understand that the Force is a limitless, omnipresent energy field, therefore by your logic anyone sensitive to the Force, anyone who can channel it, can do so limitlessly. Not true.

I find it rather funny, that I'm apparently the only individual here capable of thinking outside of the lanes of his own convictions. Do you know what "suspension of disbelief" is? I utilized it here in order to argue (which is my primary reason for being here), which doesn't mean I accept the quote in a literal sense without further examination (which I am conducting here at the moment). That you appear inable to grasp that is highly entertaining.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't know friend, seems like a U-turn to me. But seeing as your original case is steadily falling apart, a smart move, as this is all you're really going to have to fall back on. 🙂

Nah, you're way off base here. Nai is totally just playing the devil's advocate. No agenda here!

A devil's advocate that just happens only to debate against Palpatine and is always in support of the ancient Sith? I don't know if Nai expects anybody to believe that, lol.

Glad to see the gang-banging, though. It's deserved.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you're way off base here. Nai is totally just playing the devil's advocate. No agenda here!

I wonder if any of you simpletons even understood the reference of the picture to the greatest show ever made.

Steven Universe?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I wonder if any of you simpletons even understood the reference of the picture to the greatest show ever made.

The greatest show ever made? These .gifs are from Arrested Development, not Angel.

I said greatest show ever made, not a show watched by emo teenagers.

Well yeah, Steven Universe sucks. But what about Angel?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And if a heat pump works by taking advantage of heat reservoirs external to itself, it's still a heat pump that works, and this distinction only becomes relevant if said reservoirs aren't available.

If a rechargeable battery takes advantage of current from the wall outlet, I don't really care that it's technically not energy stored "inside of it" from the start.

Likewise, this distinction between "I am super powerful" and "I have an ability that allows me to use something else that is super powerful whenever I want to is still a useless one.

It's separate from, say, dismissing a feat for being on a nexus, because that nexus only exists in certain places. These dark side energies exist everywhere, so it doesn't matter, Palpatine can always use them.

What you think we're saying: Palpatine has a lot of energy directly inside of him.

What matters: Palpatine can use lots of energy to do things, and whether that energy comes from him or someplace where he can always access is irrelevant.

🙄

Since I really don't have the time to lecture you on the use of false analogies, let me just move back to square one.

The Force is an energy reserve that is pretty much infinite.
Sidious can use this infinite source of energy to empower a force storm.
That Force storm, given sufficient energy and time, can destroy the universe.
Does that make Sidious a universe buster?

My answer is "No.", because he isn't doing the universe busting. He isn't exerting energy to have an effect like that. He channels the energy of an all-encompassing energy field into an ability that might, given enough time, cause the "desired" effect. With the quantity of "enough time" not being defined.

Given infinite amount of time and unlimited energy, ever ability by every force user is theoretically capable of destroying the entire universe - even if it happens atom by atom. So every force user is a potential "universe buster"?

Let's be reasonable here; if the source claims the storms can threaten to consume all of space, it's reasonable to conclude that the authors are not trying to be deliberately deceptive and really say "well, actually it can threaten to consume all of space sometime before the heat death of the universe, and actually this applies to you stomping your feet as well!"

It's actually reasonable to conclude, that the authors weren't even thinking before writing down that line. And it's very same to assume, that non of the authors thought about this line being taken literally and then used to proclaim that Sidious can destroy the SW universe. So "being reasonable" doesn't have to do anything with your side of the argument, I'm afraid.

I actually don't care about the ritual/non-ritual distinction unto itself, I care about it because most rituals take a long time to pull off and can't be done in the middle of combat.

You mean, like, you know, destroying the universe with a force storm is something that will take a long time to pull of and can't be done in the middle of combat? 😉 Technically, Sidious can't even summon a Force storm "in the middle of combat" and then, he can't use the technique in combat in an efficient way.

The only point you might have here is the question of whether his Force storms serve as an accurate proxy for his raw power, which is a strawman to this discussion, but something I think you're already debating with Tempest over, so I won't jump in.

Or I could question how long it would take for the Force storm to destroy "all of space", to which the answer would be "No, idea" with the reasonable answer from the actual properties of the Force strom in question would be "A pretty damn long time".

That same logic could be used to dismiss the validity of Force lightning feats because, hey, why don't they just do the same damage with telekinesis? Clearly Force storms allow him to channel more power, can be used over long distances, can teleport people, etc.

Yes. And apparently they cannot be summoned just in front of you, in order to take people down that are about to defeat you in direct combat. Makes you wonder why somebody with the power to destroy the universe, doesn't even use a tiny fraction of it, to get rid of the aforementioned imminent danger.

I mean, you can question his arrogance and competence, but that isn't really related. He likes gloating.

So much that he rather dies than making a smart move?

There were plenty of Sith pretty into channeling lots of destructive power. Darth Revan had an idea for a similar "force storm" - it's just that it took the entire brotherhood to combine powers...and destroy part of a forest.

I'd contest the idea, that the application of the Force used for the destruction of a part of Ruusan's surface, was similar to the Force Storms that Sidious conjured.

So yeah, obviously Sith Lords were into trying to blow lots of things up. It's both empirically noted in the various such destructive rituals that were created, and obvious enough in how many wars would have been decided by Palpatine-scale storms.

Including all wars that Palpatine himself participated in...

Did any of them threaten to consume all of space, or even Eclipse super star destroyers? It's a matter of scale, funnily enough if it's just a question of letting the dark side flow through you.

Technically: Yes. Vitiate's final ritual threatened to end all life in the Galaxy. Exar Kun's force invested in the Dark Reaper threatened to end the Republic. And there were various events of Force user utilizing planetary scale destruction in a aimed (Nihilus, Vitiate) or rather unfortunate (the Sith Witch that wiped all life on Ambria out) ways. Or even applications of the Force that were far more destructive, e.g. Aleema Keto pulling the core of a star out, triggering a supernova that wiped out several species and destroyed a rather large part of space.

Well, let me put it this way; any semi-realistic challengers to his throne of most powerful sith have enough information documenting them, and were in enough combat situations that would have benefited from force storms, that we can be pretty sure they never matched him, or we would've known about it.

I find it rather funny, that you keep bringing up "combat situations", when Sidious has never used the Force storm in combat or to win a fight. Which is, once again, part of my motivation to argue here: If we take the force storm with its theoretical "universe busting powers" to measure the personal power of Sidious, we need to apply the same reasoning to all other applications of the Force, without taking certain factors (method, time needed) into consideration. I find that approach rather laughable. You don't?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Because it's a [Legends] canon source, and Leland Chee/EU canon continuity regulation tells us that we should believe sources unless they are contradicted?

Pardon me.
Where in the LFL canon policy does it say that every single sentence in every single source is to be taken literally and not to be questioned? If you can give me the quote that says so, I will happily think, that Obi-Wan is "as powerful as Mace Windu and as wise as Yoda" because Anakin proclaims so in AotC. Until then, I will handle SW fiction like I handle all fiction in my role as literature theorist: Unraveling, questioning, analysing, dissecting and deconstructing it in every way imaginable, until I find "meaning".

Until then, you may want to listen to one particular smart sentences from an interview with Steven Sansweet and Chris Cherasi, speaking for Lucasfilm at that point:

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. [...]

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

Emphasis mine.
If every source, save for the films, contains "interpretation and speculation", then it is mandatory to check what of the interpretation and speculation can be correct. That a Force Storm with a width of some kilometers "threatens to consume all of space" clearly doesn't belong to the lists of speculations and interpretations that is acceptable to anybody using his or her brain.

I could also point you to Leland Chee, happily proclaiming:

"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate."

- Leland Chee, aka "Tasty Taste" ,right here.

I find it rather funny, that some people here still attempt to utilize SW sources as if they were some sort of holy scripture that contains "zeh truth" and nothing else. Laughable.

Why do we believe that Anakin is named Anakin? Why do we believe that Exar Kun even existed? We take official literature as factual fiats of what happens and doesn't happen and what is and isn't in this universe; it's impossible to just say you "disbelieve" a factual rendition of an event.

False analogy.
There isn't much reason to question Anakin's name or the existance of Exar Kun. There is much reason to question the idea that the Force Storm - as depicted in the source material - could destroy "all of space" [read: anything in the entire universe], when the first thing it obviously fails to destroy, is, you know, the space it does effect, with the next thing not being destroyed is Sidious effing spirit, despite the fact that it was hit right in the face by the Storm. So is the realm of the ethereal spared from the danger of being destructed. Then what else is? All forms of energy? Things protected by the Force? I guess, we can just check the properties of Sidious spirit to determine what is save and what is not...

Actually, no, because it doesn't just work with the information from the comics, it also adds new factual events, such as the threat to consume all of space, and therefore counts as world building unto itself, and so it's a first principles thing; disputing it is like disputing that Anakin is Anakin because it would be "irrational".

It's not an argument or opinion piece, it's a created fact of the fictional universe.

Except for the fact that the source-material consists of more than facts. I can, once again, point to "interpretation and speculation". So, yes, it is very well an "opinion piece" and proclaiming anything else is quite laughable.

Because the policy is that sources are correct until falsified, not incorrect until corroborated. If it were the latter then adding new material to the universe would be pointless and you wouldn't be able to add anything.

Nope. The policy, as happily proclaimed by Leland Chee can be found above. You don't just shove some random quote in and go "Look. This is a fact." That doesn't preclude new information from entering the universe. It merely means that you have to do more than reading and taking things literal if you want to work with fiction, which is what you want to do if you drag it into a forum to "prove" your opinion with it.

Sorry, but dismissing the official guidelines in favor of your opinion is not "thinking critically", it's just a fault in basic epistemology. You don't understand the distinction between opinions of a set of events and additions of facts to an in-progress universe where empirical facts can be fiated by certain authors.

Since there isn't a "sources are to be taken literally" guideline, much like there isn't a "sources are not to interpreted" guideline, where there are statements from LFL officials proclaiming quite the opposite, I'd say the fault is on your site.
And a big "lol" at citing epistemology and then stating you have to take everything literal in a part of written fiction, when all people responsible for it claim otherwise.

Now, of course, if you can actually point out a significant contradiction, I'm all ears. But you're just appealing to your personal incredulity and trying to shift the burden of proof to us to corroborate it, as if literature can't add on new facts to existing works.

You mean like, you know, the significant contradiction between what the storm is shown doing and the very properties of the Storm as it is shown and the idea of it being capable of destroying the universe for example? 😉

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Here's another straw man for your ongoing collection. Where in the course of this conversation did I proclaim the Force storm to be an inherently dark side power and ability known only to the Emperor?

Furthermore, where is it said that the Force is used solely to create the wormhole and nothing else?

Spoiler:
Not that it matters anyway, since I don't recall claiming otherwise.

The problem, dear Tempest, is to label Sidious a "universe buster" because of his knowledge and use of the ability, without explicitly mentioning that, theoretically, every (potential) user of the ability has to be labeled as such.

And here I need to cite my most favorite example in that regard: The "Tales of the Jedi Companion" equips Freedon Nadd with the ability to conjure Force Storms. So, apparently, Nadd is a universe buster. So probably is Sadow, from whom Nadd learned pretty much everything regarding the Dark Side. And then, it would follow, that Kun is also one, given that he learned everything from Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow, according to "The Essential Guide through the Force". Which makes one wonder, if the same applies to Ludo Kressh (Sadow's equal), not to mention Marka Ragnos, generally regarded as superior to the latter two ancient Sith.

😉

lmao
I gave you a source that twice attributes the Force storms to the Emperor's "vast" and "own dark" power. I even extended the courtesy of underscoring the phrases in bold red and you still can't accept it.

Because the source contradicts Sidious himself on the issue who makes it pretty clear, that he doesn't need to invest any power beyond the "triggering" of the Force storm, meaning that the destructive capabilities of the storm can't be attributed to Sidious personal power. Why can't you accept that?

Your argument has thus far been comprised of red herrings, straw men, and wacky interpretations that contradict the source material.

I'm not contradicting the source material. I'm contradicting your interpretation of the source material, that happily ignores various instances, in which it is proclaimed that Sidious doesn't invest personal power into sustaining those storms, including the man's own words.

The sources I provide explicitly state that the Force storms were a product of the Emperor's vast personal power. It's your confirmation bias that prevents you from acknowledging that.

See above. Of course their "summoning" is a product of Sidious' power. Their theoretically destructive capabilities, if fed with outside power over the time-amount of "X", is most certainly not. You're still trying to label Sidious a universe buster because - theoretically - he can (over time) use up all force energy in the universe to feed his storm. As can any other Force user do with any other Force ability, given enough time. So following your interpretation, every single Force user is a "universe buster". Okay. I'm fine with that. 😉

By all means, continue to peddle the notion that the Emperor's Force powers don't count because he's using the Force.

Reductio ad absurdum. Read my arguments and represent and answer them in their entirety or shut up.

But I'm going with what the evidence says rather than what you desperately want it to say. 👆

You mean the evidence that clearly point out, that Sidious easily utilizes his anger and will to trigger Force storms, without using his own power further in order to sustain them? Yeah. You're definitely going with the evidence (that you like, while ignoring everything else). As usual.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you're way off base here. Nai is totally just playing the devil's advocate. No agenda here!

Did somebody ignore this post in this very thread, were I pointed out, that the same reasoning is to be used on some of Vitiate's feats? A criticism that can be extended to many other (ancient) Sith as well. Gosh. But glad to know that I am just arguing against Sidious here and follow an "agenda".

Still the same old game with Tempest on the losing side. 🙄

And by the way: Thanks for ignoring the significant question for the third time, after I pointed you towards it twice now: Can Sidious repeat the summoning of a storm with that magnitude in any situation and not just when he is provoked into extreme anger by outside factors?

Answer, Tempest. Or rather: Just concede, because there is no way you can prove Sidious could repeat it, meaning he's definitely not a universe buster. Thank you very much, Sir.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is this intended to be an adequate response?

You claim that, the dark side anger being described here, and I quote "belongs to the dark side and not to its user" and yet it's instead stated that this anger is "funnelled through the body" of the user. Which frankly, irrespective of its origins, would still be entirely relative to the user's capacity as a Force wielder to channel that anger. Rendering your argument in that regard rather moot.

You do realize, that if anger is "funneled through the body" of the user, it is pretty obvious, that the anger is coming from the outside and is released back into the outside, right? So I didn't see any reason to comment this, because it explicitly supports the argument I am making here - that the Force storm isn't powered by Sidious personal power. So the destinction is important for the question if Sidious has the power to destroy the universe, because, apparently, he has not. The Force (or the Dark Side) has. Which is nothing new, is it?

By expressing the Force through their emotions?

As for where their emotions come from? Is this seriously a question?

Do you think Anakin's rage against the Jedi came from his midichlorians? Or Vader's love for his son? Kenobi's hatred towards Maul? When Sidious is taunting Luke does he say use your aggressive feelings or the aggressive feelings of the semi-sentient cells in his body?

There is hardly a debate to be had here, the answer is rather obvious. 😬

But heck even if we are to assume your correct, this logic would become applicable to all expressions of the Force, rendering your distinction rather redundant.

Wow.
Thanks for solving a millenia old philosophical problem with your opinion. 👆 You are aware of the fact, that there is a rather long philosophical debate going on, regarding determinism and free will, right?

How much of Anakin's fate and actions was determined? By "deceiding" where the boy is born, the Force did already ensure that Anakin wouldn't grow up in a happy enviroment. In an universe were, according to Obi-Wan Kenobi, there is no "luck", a Jedi stumbles across Anakin's path. Then the Jedi is killed, taking away both mother and the replacement from Anakin but ensuring that he is trained at the same time. And so on and so forth. What you see there, is perhabs chance.

What I see, with the view on a universe were the existance of an omnipresent, omnipowerful entity with an own will is not based on faith but a hard fact, I see a clever forging of the fate of that young individual, leading to all the events that unfolded later, from the destruction of the Jedi Order to Vader's redemption.

So, yes, it is actually a question, where those emotions come from. But I have an answer where they do not come from: The will of the person having them. You do not "decide" to get angry or to fall in love or to feel happy. The will acts according to emotions and not vice versa.

Doesn't it? Kreia certainly seemed to think so.

And that's a rather literal interpretation. Are you familiar with anthropomorphism? Will doesn't necessarily suggest sentience, only a level of design, and purpose. Just in the same way that your body has a "will" to fight off viruses, and is often anthropomorphised as such. The only thing we can concretely claim the Force strives for is balance, but that doesn't give it sentience or emotions, merely a natural state; and yes it does so in a cold, unbiased way, often at the expense of countless lives.

Sorry, but that is ridiculous.
"Will" is defined as conscious and deliberate decission making. What you describe is a mere stimulus-response-model. Which is far below what the Force actually does. If the Force was merely reacting to attempts to "unbalance" it, we would see the stuff happening that Plagueis thought could happen when Sidious and himself were trying to unbalance the Force. The Force should have taken action immediately, wiping the Sith from the face of the universe. It doesn't. Instead it comes up with Anakin and events unfold as they did.

Furthermore Qui-Gon in TPM tells Anakin, that he can listen to the will of the force, communicated to him by the midi-chlorians. This is again testatement to the idea, that this "will" is far beyond a stimulus-reaction-scheme. A similar clue can be found in the RotS novelization when the Force "tells" Kenobi, wen to act and what to do, while the Jedi confronts Grievous.

And in that regard: What do you think where the visions of Padme's dead Anakin was experiencing came from? But the problem here is: If a Force user can "listen" to the will of the Force, how does one destinguish whether a certain action of an individual force user was based on that or on the force users own will? Or in other words: How does one seperate instances of free will and determination in the SW universe?

Crumbs, I'm afraid not. It being of the Force simply doesn't preclude it being expressed by Palpatine. Force lightning is of the Force, yet still expressed by the practitioner, not the Force directly. You're desperately clinging to an interpretation which is nothing but personal inference.

Nope. If something is "by the Force" than that precludes the idea than it is "by Palpatine". And, gosh, why are there serveral source which describe the Force storm in a very particular fashion, why there is none that makes similiar allusions to other Force abilties (e.g. Force lightning). Maybe because there is something happening with a Force storm that does not happen with other abilities?

On the other hand, its stated to be "funnelled through the body" and a product of "his own dark power" (the most explicit indication of ownership you could possibly get) statements you've blatantly ignored while having the hubris to accuse Tempest guilty of cherry picking in a frankly laughable display of hypocrisy and double standards! 😂

Except I haven't. I've explicitly incorporated those statements into my reasoning on various points, while you and Tempest happily ignore everything contradicting your view. So, of course, I do accuse you of cherry picking, which is exactly what you are doing.

Straw manning would suggest I'm somehow being reductive of your point, and yet you expressly said some uses of the Force are "entirely independent of the personal power of the Force user in question", a logic you then attempted to apply to Sidious.

Regardless of what your argument is this is stupid and wrong. 🙂

"I will just missrepresent your argument again. Then I will state that I don't care what your argument is and call it wrong anyway." Clever girl... 🙄

I won't bother pointing out the irony of this, I'm sure you can work it out. Regardless I didn't say that, rather that this doesn't prove it to be the case for Palpatine, but I'm sure you are aware of that as well. 😉

Because I have just rejected some of your points out of hand, by proclaiming they don't have anything to do with the subject in question, without investing a thought in them? Right.

Right, however as it turns out you've rather selectively quoted the source material here:

Important parts highlighted, Palpatine isn't harnessing the dark side energies "all around us" externally, he's channelling them through his own connection to the Force, a "portal" in his body. And not just for Force storms, but for basic powers like Force lightning, and Force kill. He's drawing on the Force that "surrounds and penetrates us" like any other Force user just in a more nuanced and masterful way. 👆

Regardless, what's important is the Force storm is described as a product of "his own dark power", so however its being "triggered", it's obvious that in order to maintain the storm it must be fuelled, by again, "his own dark power", otherwise it will dissipate.

Oh. My. God. Do I really have to go through this again?

It is nice that you quote Palpatine's own words on the issue, that have been around since release of the Dark Side Sourcebook in 1993, yet "forget" to mention the additions made to them by "Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide through the Force". If I may remind you (TEGF, p.179):

Once more: Sidious can summon Force storms with mere thought, without channeling any huge amounts of energy to either summon or sustain them. Given that, how can we attribute their power to his power, especially when he explicitly mentions, that he hasn't gained full control over them. Even assuming that this has happened until "Dark Empire", it makes pretty much clear, that those storms happen outside of his personal power. And so does the next source you quote:

Reinforcing for a final time that it does dissipate with the destruction of the wielder, in fact its stated so by the source material:

Which itself makes implicit a dependency on said wielder for a source of power. Ignoring the obvious benefits of expressing his power in such scope and range, if we assume this an actual issue, how does your interpretation address it? If he can unleash such power merely by trigging dark side energies "all around us" and nothing more why couldn't do the same for standard abilities like TK or Force lightning, to achieve the same destructive output?

At least it would, if you would have quoted it completely, instead of ommitting parts of it. Here is the complete passage (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 74):

After reading this, how can you still maintain your view, that the Force storms are dependant on the power of the Force user utilizing them? A Force storm is just summoned with the user just having limited control over it. How is that even possible, if it was sustained by the user? How can the user lose control to such an degree, that the storm then attempts to destroy him, once more operating under the view, that the user would just stop to channel power into the storm in order to stop it. And finally: How does a force storm survive the destruction of its user for several minutes if it were dependent on the users personal force power. It should end in the instance in which the Force user is destroyed by what is, according to your view, his own power in the first place.

Sorry. The description of the ability with limited control, turning against the user and surviving the destruction of the user makes it pretty clear, that Force storms are not dependent on the power of people summoning them. And anybody who proclaims something else is either dumb or a fanboy. Simple fact.

It may be dependent on the user in a sence that the entirely unnatural phenomenon needs "direction" or "control" not to just fade away when the universe turns back into "normal" (or the Force decides that is what is to be done). I could point to thermodynamics and uniform distribution of energy here, but I think the argument is already over your head as it is, so no need to make things even more complicated.

However, did you consider that maybe it would take a level of power and mastery Palpatine does not yet possess to condense this into a less unwieldly ability? A barely controlled explosion of energy should logically be a lot easier to pull off.I won't leave you in suspense, the Force maelstrom as described in detail by the Book of Sith as such:

"Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates "an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning."

Like so:

Or rather a self-evident combination of a Force barrier, Force lightning and telekinesis, all powers we know to be realised through the wielder, not externally.

And this is not even remotely compareable to a force storm and the description of the ability within the source material. So maybe Sidious can't channel compareable power into other abilities, because force storms aren't dependent on the personal power of the person summoning them, which is pretty self-evident from the complete source-material?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, your opinion, but one of course that contradicts literally all of the source material. Of it being a product of "his own dark power", of this energy originating from a "portal" in the "vital center of the body", not energies he's siphoning externally and exclusive of his strength.

You mean except for the part of the source-material, where Sidious happily proclaims that he hasn't mastered what you say is "his own power" (lol), that he the user can't completely control, what you think is "his own power" and that the ability, still viewed by you as "the power of the user" can turn on and destroy the user and will even survive the death of the user before dissipating. Yeah. That makes sense... 🙄

And assuming anyone could feed it infinitely is silly even if your interpretation were correct. Using the Force requires exertion and strains the midichlorians in the body, eventually someone insufficient for the task would have succumbed to exhaustion, or been boiled inside out just by trying to channel that much power in the first place.

Are you really that dense?
By the proclamation of Sidious himself, summoning a force storm can be done without effort and with a mere thought. There is not a single instance, in which further use of force is described. In fact, it is pretty much excluded, hence my interpretation that Force storms are self-sustaining once being unleashed by the Force user in question, that you ignored.

Now following your interpretation (force users personal power being used in the storm) to destroy the universe, obviously one would need to sustain the Force storm until the task is archived. If that isn't done instantly - or even fast (and the comic doesn't indicate anything like that at all), then, yes, the storm and the user will go long before the task of destroying the universe is archived, hence why I happily proclaimed that its senseless to assume that the Force storm could destroy the universe or that Sidious could do the job utilizing the aformentioned force storm.

Thanks for agreeing with me on the matter.

Understand that the Force is a limitless, omnipresent energy field, therefore by your logic anyone sensitive to the Force, anyone who can channel it, can do so limitlessly. Not true.

And what are those limitations? If you use telekinesis to lift a stone, and do it often enough, you will reach a point where you have invested enough force energy to lift a planet. When you destroy anything using the force and do it often enough, you will once reach a point where you have used enough force energy to destroy a planet - or the entire universe. The only prerequisite here is an infinite amount of time. Which is, coincidentally, the only possible way for the Force strom as summoned by Sidious in DE, to destroy the entire universe: having an unlimited amount of time to work on it.

Do you have any different thoughts on the issue? Because, you know, to me it just looks like if some people want to install a "no limit" rule for Sidious force abilities based on some statement in some comic companion. I could be wrong, though.

I don't know friend, seems like a U-turn to me. But seeing as your original case is steadily falling apart, a smart move, as this is all you're really going to have to fall back on. 🙂

Yeah. A "u-turn" that a I have written in my usertitle for over a decade now and follow through with in a rather rigorous fashion. I'm not interested in changing the view of people posting here, much as I'm not interested in sharing my personal convictions with them. Why? Take a look at my signature.

Most people here a fanatics in one way or another. And the benefit of being a fanatic is, that you're always right and will just ignore instances in which you are wrong. Just look how Tempest dodges the question, whether Sidious can replicate the supposed feat or not. No answer. Why?

Because nobody can prove that Sidious can replicate the feat, without being angered by outside circumstances. So even if that one Force Storm he summoned had the theoretical power to destroy the universe (and I'm rather sceptical in that regard), he may never be able to summon another one that has that ability. At that point, all "Yes. Sidious is a universe buster"-supporters are already soundly defeated and I win.

The rest is just entertainment to me, which you happily provided for free. Thank you. See you next weekend. Or not.