Is Palpatine a universe buster?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nai the Book of Anger as its depicted in the Book of Sith describes things differently:

If you'd read it carefully, then, no, it doesn't:

"It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated in a single act of malice.

In time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. [...] Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom [...] This technique can be increased into a Force storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touches, for at its eye is pure hate."

--Book of Anger, Book of Sith

See the additional emphasis in the text. Once more, Sidious de-personalizes the ability, by operating with the "anger of the Dark Side" - not his own, personal feelings or force powers. The user of the ability is more a conduit for those things than an actual "user" in the sense of investing his very own power into the ability.

Evidently the power of the storm, attributed to "anger, combined with will" is that which is channelled and manifest through Palpatine's own body. And regarding the source that states Palpatine achieved mastery over this power:

The energy still comes fromt he outside.

Vast energy storms that connect wildly disparate spots across the galaxy, hyperspace wormholes are unpredictable and devastating. It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was able to not only control these storms, but to create them.

--SW Handbook Volume 3: Dark Empire

You may want to have a look at the context. "Control" in this particular case is used as a synonym for "manipulate", contrasted with his ability to create them himself. That doesn't mean that he was in full control of the ability (since he could control them to a certain extend before, obviously).

@The_Tempest

Some of those instances involve characters becoming conduits for the Force and its will. Most other instances involve characters simply using Force energy for their own ends.

And which would be the case for Anakin, in the instances in which he did defeat Dooku, by merely imagining to do so or when taming Son and Daughter on Mortis? Were that expressions of his personal power or the Force acting through them? How do we seperate those instances and how do we rank Anakin accordingly?

Whether or not they are merely executing cosmic design in every scenario is unknowable and really beside the point.

Is it now?
In the context of using literature in order to judge the relative power-levels of fictional characters, I have to say, that I find it important, wether something is used as some kind of "deus ex machina" to save the day, or if we can expect that a character is capable of replicating feats, especially in the context of combat situations. Can Sidious summon a force storm with "universe busting abilities" at any given time or was it a result of his extreme emotions at that particular point in time? I don't have an answer for that question. Do you?

That the Emperor harnesses external energies and unleashes their power through sheer will isn't anything to note because that's pretty much how everyone uses the Force in general lol.

Is it now?
I remember the day, when a certain somebody attempted to talk down the instance, where Nadd's spirit collapses a cave on Korriban on Kun, by pointing out that Nadd merely triggered the release of energy being present in the place. I do likewise remember people attempting to talk down character feats by pointing to a "force nexus" or "dark side nexus", which is also just a place were there is more surrounding force energy than normal places have. Neither of that makes sense following your argument.

Furthermore you are quite wrong. May I point to the Fallanassi, who used the Force by manipulating what the called the "White Current" into maintaining desired effects (such as illusions) without further need of attention from the force user producing them in the first place? Luke later uses this methods to render an entire planet invisible for an, apparently, infinite amount of time.

And I view force storms similary: The user (e.g. Sidious) triggers an event in the Force (via a combination of anger and his own will) that then utilizes the Force energy present, independent of the force abilities of the original "user". Otherwise it doesn't make sense for the Force Storm to continue, when Sidious "lost control", being attacked by the Skywalker siblings. It should have vanished on the spot, instead of continuing and actually killing the guy who summoned it in the first place.

Another hint for the idea, that they are seperated from his personal force mastery, is the fact, that Sidious did even include those into his "Book of Anger", which was meant to share some parts of his knowledge and that, according to the "Star Wars Encyclopedia" (p.105), various Dark Side adepts were also capable of producing them - just having less control over the ability compared to Sidious himself. The same source mentions that even Jedi, banding together, could summon Force storms.

Originally posted by Nai
If you'd read it carefully, then, no, it doesn't:

See the additional emphasis in the text. Once more, Sidious de-personalizes the ability, by operating with the "anger of the Dark Side" - not his own, personal feelings or force powers. The user of the ability is more a conduit for those things than an actual "user" in the sense of investing his very own power into the ability.

Rather the "anger of the Dark Side" should be understood as making a distinction this anger from being a bit pissed off to a source of tangible dark side power.

Regardless every Force user is a mere conduit, they don't have ownership over the Force, rather they are able to realise and direct its energies through their bodies.

The energy still comes from the outside.

You may want to have a look at the context. "Control" in this particular case is used as a synonym for "manipulate", contrasted with his ability to create them himself. That doesn't mean that he was in full control of the ability (since he could control them to a certain extend before, obviously).

So how does that fit with your analogy that Palpatine is merely pressing a button that triggers the nuclear bomb? Could that button presser then manipulate the explosion to target whatever area he pleased?

Also Nai the Force storm Palpatine created over the Pinnacle Moon did dissipate after he was killed, evidenced from the fact that the New Republic fleet, their base and indeed the universe itself was not consumed by it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, except your reading of that would explictly contradict the fact that this anger is being "funneled through the body", as well as the basic understanding that the Force isn't capable of expressing emotions, those come from people.

Oh, really?
Last time I checked, the Force was an entity with a will. And an entity with a will can very well have and express emotions.

Rather the "anger of the Dark Side" should be understood as making a distinction this anger from being a bit pissed off to a source of tangible dark side power.

Last time I checked, every kind of (dark) emotion could be turned into a source of power. So I wonder why I should accept the idea, that this phrase is to be interpreted like you want it to be interpreted, as opposed to taking it literal which is what you want to do in the first place here.

Apparently, that is only an option if it serves your side of an argument. 😉

Regardless every Force user is a mere conduit, they don't have ownership over the Force, rather they are able to realise and direct its energies through their bodies.Which is where you are having issues, yes this power comes from the Force, an external entity (though pervasive in all things) but it nonetheless being channelled and therefore realised through Palpatine as the source makes rather explicit.And yet a significant measure of control is implied, enough to dispatch multiple Force storms across the galaxy, one of which he used to teleport Luke Skywalker to him unharmed.

There are still different ways to use the Force, some entirely independent of the personal power of the Force user in question. Do the Falanassi have the personal power to hide away entire settlements behind illusions or create illusionary fleets? No. Can they do it regardless, manipulating the Force (the "White Current"😉 directly? Yes. Does Luke have the power reserves to turn an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time? Probably not. He does still do it in the aforementioned way.

And if Sidious himself, personally, mutiple-times makes clear reference, that the Force storms don't have to do much with his Force powers but a merely summoned by an act of anger and will, why would anybody want to attribute them to his personal strenght in the Force - against all available evidence, even coming from the man himself?

"Hey. I really don't need my Force powers to summon Force storms. I can do that on the whim with my will."
"Nope, dude! YOU NEED YOUR FORCE POWERS!!!111"

Sounds stupid. Is stupid.

So how does that fit with your analogy that Palpatine is merely pressing a button that triggers the nuclear bomb? Could that button presser then manipulate the explosion to target whatever area he pleased?

He is, of course, doing more than pressing a button. However: He doesn't exert his personal energy to summon a storm. He doesn't "generate" or "channel" the entire energy used by a storm. He just "triggers" and then "controls" them, with the latter to a limited (though very high) extend. If they were a part of his personal power, the Force storm consuming him should have stopped in the moment when the Skywalker twins did cut off Sidious' control.

And even following your interpretation, this still doesn't answer the question whether or not Sidious could replicate the feat. Not even talking about the idea of taking that statement literally in the first place, which is pretty laughable to start with.

Originally posted by Nai
Oh, really?

Last time I checked, the Force was an entity with a will. And an entity with a will can very well have and express emotions.

Regardless do you have any proof of this claim? Yes the Force has a will but the idea that it can be angry, happy, sad etc. seems farfetched to say the least. We've only ever seen the Force expressed emotionally through Force wielders.

Last time I checked, every kind of (dark) emotion could be turned into a source of power. So I wonder why I should accept the idea, that this phrase is to be interpreted like you want it to be interpreted, as opposed to taking it literal which is what you want to do in the first place here.

Apparently, that is only an option if it serves your side of an argument. 😉

There are still different ways to use the Force, some entirely independent of the personal power of the Force user in question. Do the Falanassi have the personal power to hide away entire settlements behind illusions or create illusionary fleets? No. Can they do it regardless, manipulating the Force (the "White Current"😉 directly? Yes. Does Luke have the power reserves to turn an entire planet invisible for an infinite amount of time? Probably not. He does still do it in the aforementioned way.

And if Sidious himself, personally, mutiple-times makes clear reference, that the Force storms don't have to do much with his Force powers but a merely summoned by an act of anger and will, why would anybody want to attribute them to his personal strenght in the Force - against all available evidence, even coming from the man himself?

"Hey. I really don't need my Force powers to summon Force storms. I can do that on the whim with my will."
"Nope, dude! YOU NEED YOUR FORCE POWERS!!!111"

Sounds stupid. Is stupid.

Your suggestion that all Palpatine did was wish it to happen really hard is ludicrous, as I assume you don't believe any strong willed non-Force sensitive could accomplish this. Of course Palpatine was employing his Force powers. 😂

Now as for your examples, I grant you they certainly lend an element of credence to the notion you are putting forward here, but they do nothing to prove this is the case for Palpatine. So you can stop bringing them up.

As for your proof, Palpatine actually says nothing of the sort. You've merely inferred that meaning from him saying "through a simple act of will", which is not at all a concrete assertion that his Force powers aren't involved. Rather it can just as well be interpreted as Palpatine describing the sheer ease by which he can accomplish this. To provide another example:

Source: Rebel Force: Target

Fury boiled his blood at the thought of waiting any longer. The rage called for release, and the Emperor knew that with a thought he could destroy his opulent office. He could crack the building's foundation, rain rubble on the heads of those unlucky beings trapped within. He could, with the full power of his anger, unleash a fireball of death.

On the other hand we have the Book of Sith again described how the Force storm is achieved by anger "funnelled through the body", and I'd add its also described as an extrapolation of the Force maelstrom, an ability achieved by channeling the Force internally, not triggering it externally. By corroborating these sources therefore, I'm inclined to believe your interpretation is incorrect.

He is, of course, doing more than pressing a button. However: He doesn't exert his personal energy to summon a storm. He doesn't "generate" or "channel" the entire energy used by a storm. He just "triggers" and then "controls" them, with the latter to a limited (though very high) extend. If they were a part of his personal power, the Force storm consuming him should have stopped in the moment when the Skywalker twins did cut off Sidious' control.

And even following your interpretation, this still doesn't answer the question whether or not Sidious could replicate the feat. Not even talking about the idea of taking that statement literally in the first place, which is pretty laughable to start with.

From The Jedi Path and Star Wars Handbook: Volume III: Dark Empire, respectively. I think the message is so hilariously straightforward as to not require annotation beyond "duh."

Nai
And which would be the case for Anakin, in the instances in which he did defeat Dooku, by merely imagining to do so or when taming Son and Daughter on Mortis? Were that expressions of his personal power or the Force acting through them? How do we seperate those instances and how do we rank Anakin accordingly?

Nai
Is it now?
In the context of using literature in order to judge the relative power-levels of fictional characters, I have to say, that I find it important, wether something is used as some kind of "deus ex machina" to save the day, or if we can expect that a character is capable of replicating feats, especially in the context of combat situations. Can Sidious summon a force storm with "universe busting abilities" at any given time or was it a result of his extreme emotions at that particular point in time? I don't have an answer for that question. Do you?

Nai
Is it now?
I remember the day, when a certain somebody attempted to talk down the instance, where Nadd's spirit collapses a cave on Korriban on Kun, by pointing out that Nadd merely triggered the release of energy being present in the place. I do likewise remember people attempting to talk down character feats by pointing to a "force nexus" or "dark side nexus", which is also just a place were there is more surrounding force energy than normal places have. Neither of that makes sense following your argument.

Furthermore you are quite wrong. May I point to the Fallanassi, who used the Force by manipulating what the called the "White Current" into maintaining desired effects (such as illusions) without further need of attention from the force user producing them in the first place? Luke later uses this methods to render an entire planet invisible for an, apparently, infinite amount of time.

And I view force storms similary: The user (e.g. Sidious) triggers an event in the Force (via a combination of anger and his own will) that then utilizes the Force energy present, independent of the force abilities of the original "user". Otherwise it doesn't make sense for the Force Storm to continue, when Sidious "lost control", being attacked by the Skywalker siblings. It should have vanished on the spot, instead of continuing and actually killing the guy who summoned it in the first place.

Another hint for the idea, that they are seperated from his personal force mastery, is the fact, that Sidious did even include those into his "Book of Anger", which was meant to share some parts of his knowledge and that, according to the "Star Wars Encyclopedia" (p.105), various Dark Side adepts were also capable of producing them - just having less control over the ability compared to Sidious himself. The same source mentions that even Jedi, banding together, could summon Force storms.

It's like the textual equivalent of a school of little red fish. 😐

First, I would say a feat is a product of a character's "personal" abilities {understanding that, by the stringent definition to which you now desperately cling, there's technically no such thing} and not the enigmatic "will of the Force" unless otherwise indicated.

Second, that's cool, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

Third, nice try. If Palpatine could only trigger Force storms by "unleashing dark side energies" on a nexus, where the dark side is inordinately strong, you might have a point.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

From The Jedi Path and Star Wars Handbook: Volume III: Dark Empire, respectively. I think the message is so hilariously straightforward as to not require annotation beyond "duh."

@Nai,

Apologies if you've already answered this somewhere in one of your walls of text, but what exactly are you trying to demonstrate here? Just pointing out that Palpatine technically harnesses his power through an energy field beyond his own is a useless distinction in semantics - it does nothing to change the fact that he can harness that energy. It's not like someone performing a feat on a nexus, where you can't generalize that ability because they aren't always on said nexus - these dark energies are always around Palpatine, so there's no meaningful distinction between saying that he has immense amounts of raw power, and saying that he is skilled and willful enough to harness a ubiquitous reservoir of raw power.

The only purpose I could see to your distinction is if you're going on a tangent and trying to contest whether these storms could be correlated to his ability to use other Force powers. This is not only superfluous to what anybody was talking about, but also requires you to establish that Force storms uniquely harness "external" dark side energies while others do not, even though that's basically the entire definition of the Force - harnessing the energy field that binds the universe together. If Palpatine can figure out how to channel the dark side to bust super star destroyers, why do you suppose he couldn't also use it for telekinesis, and if he can, why does it matter if it's a product of his own abilities or just the ability to harness the universe's?

BTW, if it's really that simple, why were no Sith before Palpatine ever able to harness these dark side energies to the extent he could, even those who lived far longer than him?

Good points.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
BTW, if it's really that simple, why were no Sith before Palpatine ever able to harness these dark side energies to the extent he could, even those who lived far longer than him?

An ancient artifact Darkstaff was capable of conjuring a Force Storm but no such recorded instances exist before experiments of Darth Rivan.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
- The Comics Companion

Is he a universe buster? Why or why not? If this [legends] canon source is just too "ridiculous" to be taken seriously, where do we draw the line? Are the Ones = universe buster quotes legit? How about Vitiate's galaxy absorbing ritual? Or Jerec's Valley of the Jedi experience? Or Palpatine's Force storms tearing surface off worlds? When can we just dismiss quotes for crossing some threshold of plausibility?

Dark Empire sources are most reliable to consider to measure Force Storm:

This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.

Use of this power requires the focusing of hate and anger to an almost palpable degree and there is considerable danger involved. Some are
able to create Force storms, but fail at harnessing what they have foolishly unleashed. Often, those who fail to control the storm are themselves consumed and destroyed. If the user is destroyed, the storm dissipates within minutes.

The above is realistic and reasonable assessment.

And on what basis do you dismiss the OP's source?

Personal bias. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, I'll start by pointing out that you've only responded to half of my point, and failed to address the fact the source describes his anger as being "funneled through the body". Don't tell me your avoiding this particular aspect?

I didn't see any particular reason to adress this.

Regardless do you have any proof of this claim? Yes the Force has a will but the idea that it can be angry, happy, sad etc. seems farfetched to say the least. We've only ever seen the Force expressed emotionally through Force wielders.

How do the Force users "express the Force emotionally"? They express their emotions. And where do those come from? From their own minds or from the host of parasites they carry around, called midi-chlorians, that ensure the very existance of life and a part of a higher power with an own will. This is, essentially, a theological debate. You could just as well ask me to "prove" that determination or fate exist (or don't).

However: If an entity has a will then it must have feelings. Will cannot exists devoid of emotions. It is coined by them, led by them and expresses them through thoughts and actions. Why would the Force "act" at all, if being devoid of feelings? It certainly doesn't operate based on cold emotionless logic.

How is my interpretation not literal? As you point out dark emotions like anger, hate etc. are sources of dark side power, they are of the dark side. The fact that anger is described here as "of the dark side" therefore makes perfect literal sense. What you are trying to say is that this dark side anger is being expressed by the Force itself, rather than the person, which has no precedent in lore or in the source material.

Because what is literally said, is that the anger in question belongs to the dark side and not to its user. Got it? So you deviate from what is written to establish what you think it means. If you would extend that modus operandi to the entire quote, this discussion here would be pretty pointless to start with, because it is pretty obvious, that the Force Storm in question did never even come close to be a threat to "all of space" as in "the entire universe". 😉

It doesn't matter, whether there is some kind of precedent in the lore or not. If you want to take the quote literal, then, I'm afraid, the anger does belong to the Dark Side and not the Force user.

Right first of all let's establish what is actually stupid here, namely this distinction between "will" and "Force powers" you are making. Understand that anything achieved by influencing the environment with the Force, is a Force power, because it uses the power of the Force to be accomplished.

The question is not whether or not he uses the Force to summon them. The question is, whether or not the entire destructive capablities of the Force storm are to be attributed solely to the personal power of Sidious, because, if I may remind you, the question to answer here was: "Is Sidious a universe buster" and not "Could the Force storm, that Sidious summoned, have been a universe buster in theory?"

Your suggestion that all Palpatine did was wish it to happen really hard is ludicrous, as I assume you don't believe any strong willed non-Force sensitive could accomplish this. Of course Palpatine was employing his Force powers. 😂

It would be kind if you wouldn't attempt to strawman me. Again: The question was, if the result of Sidious force use (the Force Storm) is solely powered by himself contrary to all describtions of the ability, including those Sidious gives himself.

Now as for your examples, I grant you they certainly lend an element of credence to the notion you are putting forward here, but they do nothing to prove this is the case for Palpatine. So you can stop bringing them up.

"Uh. It contradicts my opionion. I shall ignore it."

As for your proof, Palpatine actually says nothing of the sort. You've merely inferred that meaning from him saying "through a simple act of will", which is not at all a concrete assertion that his Force powers aren't involved. Rather it can just as well be interpreted as Palpatine describing the sheer ease by which he can accomplish this. To provide another example:Are we therefore to take it that because Palpatine doesn't make explicit his use of Force powers, but instead describes this as something he could accomplish "with a thought" that his Force powers are not involved, and that he is merely triggering the dark side energies around him? Of course not. It's referring to the ease by which he could accomplish this.

All of what Sidious says is a clear reference to the fact, that he doesn't power the Force storms himself. He "summons" or "triggers" them and then controls them but doesn't "empower" them. This is fairly obvious from the fact that he gets cut off from the final storm by the Skywalker twins and the storm keeps going, which shouldn't be the case if this was dependent on Sidious' personal power. Furthermore if they were fueled by Sidious' power, Sidious could just use the same amount of destuctive abilities in any other shape, making it entirely useless to summon those Force storms in the first place.

On the other hand we have the Book of Sith again described how the Force storm is achieved by anger "funnelled through the body", and I'd add its also described as an extrapolation of the Force maelstrom, an ability achieved by channeling the Force internally, not triggering it externally.

I seriously wonder, where you gathered the information about the exact working mechanisms of the "force maelstrom" ability.

By corroborating these sources therefore, I'm inclined to believe your interpretation is incorrect.Again it did dissipate, or it would have consumed the fleet, the Rebel base and the entire universe. The fact that it did none of these things proves it is dependent on the host, and the fact that it did not dissipate immediately only indicates the residual power put into it was able to persist for a short time. Just in the same way that if you cut off the heat to a boiling pan the water won't cool down immediately.

Yes. It did dissipate.
The question is not whether or not it is dependent on the host, but in which way it is dependent on the host. Imho it works like this: The host channels the "outside" dark side energy through his body and into the storm. The storm keeps going, as long as it is "fed". This is why the storm died down rather fast, when Sidious was killed and this also explains why such a force storm could potentially consume all of space (because there is virtually limitless power available in the universe to "feed" it, when somebody is around to keep it going).

But if you want to take that and call Sidious a "universe buster" than anybody capable of destroying one grain of material with the Force is one - given enough (an infinite amount of) time.

A rather ironic thing to say considering that you've taken the statement literally by making this argument, so am I to assume you're calling yourself laughable then? Noted. 🙂

I find it rather funny, that I'm apparently the only individual here capable of thinking outside of the lanes of his own convictions. Do you know what "suspension of disbelief" is? I utilized it here in order to argue (which is my primary reason for being here), which doesn't mean I accept the quote in a literal sense without further examination (which I am conducting here at the moment). That you appear inable to grasp that is highly entertaining.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Pardon me.
Did you want to shoot yourself in the knee, or was that happening by accident? So let me get this clear:

1)
The ability is not inherently "dark side", but a demonstration of "natural power" just labeled "dark side" because of the "potential for abuse".

2)
There are more users of this than Sidious, apparently also within the lines of the Jedi Order.

3)
The Force is used "to open a hyperspace wormhole" and nothing else. It is not used to "sustain" the Force storm.

Thanks for kindly proving my point. 👆

That storm was "spawned by dark side anger"? Not the anger of the Emperor? Not his will? Not his force powers? Good god, Gideon. You're doing a rather good job with selectively reading the sources you post here, totally not seeing, that they actually completely dismantle your point. 👆

From The Jedi Path and Star Wars Handbook: Volume III: Dark Empire, respectively. I think the message is so hilariously straightforward as to not require annotation beyond "duh."

Yeah. See above. Instead of reading source-material under the influence of confirmation bias, it would be a good idea to perform an analysis of it. Isn't it nice, that there is at least one person with reading ability present to help you out? 🙂

It's like the textual equivalent of a school of little red fish. 😐

If you don't want to answer points, don't quote them.

First, I would say a feat is a product of a character's "personal" abilities {understanding that, by the stringent definition to which you now desperately cling, there's technically no such thing} and not the enigmatic "will of the Force" unless otherwise indicated.

Except, when it is clearly mentioned, that the character was not producing a feat based solely on his very own force powers / mastery, which is clearly the case for force storms - according to every single source on them.

If you want to ignore that: Fine. Then we can just stop applying context and circumstances and go full "feat wars", which means that all characters who drained planets (rituals? Ignored. All personal power, after all.) or archived "oneness" do instantly become invincible. So CW / RotS Anakin > all.

Hell. Is the construction of force imbued items also an extent of the creators "personal power"? I wonder what that tells us about Naga Sadow (ship, meditation sphere), Ludo Kressh (gauntlet of his son), Marka Ragnos (sceptre) or Exar Kun (Dark Reaper)? Are Exar Kun's force abilities superior to the entirety of the Republic, provided that the Dark Reaper was going to bring an end to that Galaxy spanning government? Just asking.

Second, that's cool, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

This statement would make sense, if it was discernable what you were commenting on. The part regarding the Falanassi, for example, does clearly have its value within this thread, regardless of your personal opinion.

Third, nice try. If Palpatine could only trigger Force storms by "unleashing dark side energies" on a nexus, where the dark side is inordinately strong, you might have a point. [/B]

And who exactly said that the individuals who used powers on a nexus needed a nexus to use aforementioned powers? I'd say that the number of individuals for whose actions this was explicitly stated is rather low. 😉

And the point of my "false" analogy was, that Sidious can't create and maintain force storms with his personal power alone. Pretty much evident from the fact, that he, well, says so himself, the same thing is written down in every source and - lo and behold - Sidious clearly doesn't have the personal power required to destroy the universe. The last thing might come as a shocking revelation to you, I know, but - sooner or later - you'll have to accept this. 🙂

On a sidenote: It's nice how you - as usual - dodged the crucial question: Could Sidious replicate the feat in question when not angered to a certain degree?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Nai,

Apologies if you've already answered this somewhere in one of your walls of text, but what exactly are you trying to demonstrate here? Just pointing out that Palpatine technically harnesses his power through an energy field beyond his own is a useless distinction in semantics - it does nothing to change the fact that [b]he can harness that energy. It's not like someone performing a feat on a nexus, where you can't generalize that ability because they aren't always on said nexus - these dark energies are always around Palpatine, so there's no meaningful distinction between saying that he has immense amounts of raw power, and saying that he is skilled and willful enough to harness a ubiquitous reservoir of raw power.

Do you honestly think so?
I see a big difference between somebody "using" the Force in a way where he takes a bit of the power, to archive some ends, and a situation where he turns himself into a conductor of outside energies, in order to keep a certain ability running, without utilizing his personal power beyond the initial triggering of the ability.

And my point is to demonstrate, that the "Force Storm" could only have been a threat to the universe, when all (dark side) power in the universe would have been channeled into it by Sidious in order to destroy aforementioned universe. In that sense, every destructive force ability would be "a threat to the universe". If you use force lightning on everything there is in order to destroy it, and do so for an very long amount of time, you will eventually reach a point where the universe is totally destroyed. Doesn't turn Dooku into a "universe buster".

The only purpose I could see to your distinction is if you're going on a tangent and trying to contest whether these storms could be correlated to his ability to use other Force powers. This is not only superfluous to what anybody was talking about, but also requires you to establish that Force storms uniquely harness "external" dark side energies while others do not, even though that's basically the entire definition of the Force - harnessing the energy field that binds the universe together. If Palpatine can figure out how to channel the dark side to bust super star destroyers, why do you suppose he couldn't also use it for telekinesis, and if he can, why does it matter if it's a product of his own abilities or just the ability to harness the universe's?

Once more: There is a difference between ad hoc and limited use of outside powers and continuos use of outside powers. If you don't agree with that, there is no use for distinquishing between regular Force use and rituals or constructing force imbued items. Furthermore if he could channel "universe busting" power (or anything even close to that) his defeat doesn't make any sense. Why don't instantly kill Luke with "force storm power level force lightning"? Why destroy enemy fleet with a force push?

You know: I can't even tell why the hell he would summon that final force storm, when it totally didn't help him to get rid off the imminent danger he was facing (the Skywalker twins).

"Hey. Those people here are going to kill me. I'd rather drop some awesome-sauce force ability into space, where it won't do anything to stop them!"

Seriously. What the hell, Sheev?

BTW, if it's really that simple, why were no Sith before Palpatine ever able to harness these dark side energies to the extent he could, even those who lived far longer than him?

Where does it say so? Who tried?

Apparently, given the excerpts that Gideon did so kindly provide, there were even Jedi capable of utilizing the ability in a rather similar fashion. And they also were known before Sidious utilized them (as the "The Jedi Path" was written before the events depicted in "Dark Empire"😉.

So, obviously, other people did utilize them before, but to what extend is totally unknown. Assuming that Sidious was the first to utilize them in the way he did is just, you know, an assumption, since the only people mentioned being not as good as him with it, are the dark side adepts who followed his orders and learned it from him to a certain extend.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And on what basis do you dismiss the OP's source?

And on what basis do you believe it?

"Dismissing" it is rather easy.
Perhabs on the basis, that it is not a source.
It is literature that already interpretes a source (the DE comics).
Which are in turn an interpretation of events as the really happened within the SW universe.

So the original source can be wrong with its description of the events, and the literature interpreting the source can be wrong because of that or all by itself.

And given that there is nothing in the original source to even remotely assume that the Force storm was a threat to the universe, why would one the literature interpreting the events in the original source, which proclaims something like that out of nothing?

Ah. Yes. Lack of any kind of literature interpretation skills or capability of thinking critically. My bad.

So uh yea.. Using your logic of Palpatine's force storms, who would you attribute Vitiate's rituals to?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
So uh yea.. Using your logic of Palpatine's force storms, who would you attribute Vitiate's rituals to?

I don't even know, how Vitiate's rituals work exactly.
But considering what he does on Ziost (killing hundreds and thousands of people to "use" the energy released by their deaths in order to conduct his ritual), I wouldn't attribute the result of those rituals to his personal force powers, because they obviously weren't based on those alone.

But is Vitiate a "universe buster", because he could technically repeat this action ad infinitum, until the entire universe is devoid of any life, save for himself?

Originally posted by Nai
Do you honestly think so?
I see a big difference between somebody "using" the Force in a way where he takes a bit of the power, to archive some ends, and a situation where he turns himself into a conductor of outside energies, in order to keep a certain ability running, without utilizing his personal power beyond the initial triggering of the ability.

And my point is to demonstrate, that the "Force Storm" could only have been a threat to the universe, when all (dark side) power in the universe would have been channeled into it by Sidious in order to destroy aforementioned universe. In that sense, every destructive force ability would be "a threat to the universe".

And if a heat pump works by taking advantage of heat reservoirs external to itself, it's still a heat pump that works, and this distinction only becomes relevant if said reservoirs aren't available.

If a rechargeable battery takes advantage of current from the wall outlet, I don't really care that it's technically not energy stored "inside of it" from the start.

Likewise, this distinction between "I am super powerful" and "I have an ability that allows me to use something else that is super powerful whenever I want to is still a useless one.

It's separate from, say, dismissing a feat for being on a nexus, because that nexus only exists in certain places. These dark side energies exist everywhere, so it doesn't matter, Palpatine can always use them.

What you think we're saying: Palpatine has a lot of energy directly inside of him.

What matters: Palpatine can use lots of energy to do things, and whether that energy comes from him or someplace where he can always access is irrelevant.

If you use force lightning on everything there is in order to destroy it, and do so for an very long amount of time, you will eventually reach a point where the universe is totally destroyed. Doesn't turn Dooku into a "universe buster".

Let's be reasonable here; if the source claims the storms can threaten to consume all of space, it's reasonable to conclude that the authors are not trying to be deliberately deceptive and really say "well, actually it can threaten to consume all of space sometime before the heat death of the universe, and actually this applies to you stomping your feet as well!"

Once more: There is a difference between ad hoc and limited use of outside powers and continuos use of outside powers. If you don't agree with that, there is no use for distinquishing between regular Force use and rituals or constructing force imbued items.

I actually don't care about the ritual/non-ritual distinction unto itself, I care about it because most rituals take a long time to pull off and can't be done in the middle of combat.

The only point you might have here is the question of whether his Force storms serve as an accurate proxy for his raw power, which is a strawman to this discussion, but something I think you're already debating with Tempest over, so I won't jump in.

Furthermore if he could channel "universe busting" power (or anything even close to that) his defeat doesn't make any sense. Why don't instantly kill Luke with "force storm power level force lightning"? Why destroy enemy fleet with a force push?

That same logic could be used to dismiss the validity of Force lightning feats because, hey, why don't they just do the same damage with telekinesis? Clearly Force storms allow him to channel more power, can be used over long distances, can teleport people, etc.

You know: I can't even tell why the hell he would summon that final force storm, when it totally didn't help him to get rid off the imminent danger he was facing (the Skywalker twins).

I mean, you can question his arrogance and competence, but that isn't really related. He likes gloating.

Where does it say so? Who tried?

There were plenty of Sith pretty into channeling lots of destructive power. Darth Revan had an idea for a similar "force storm" - it's just that it took the entire brotherhood to combine powers...and destroy part of a forest.

So yeah, obviously Sith Lords were into trying to blow lots of things up. It's both empirically noted in the various such destructive rituals that were created, and obvious enough in how many wars would have been decided by Palpatine-scale storms.

Apparently, given the excerpts that Gideon did so kindly provide, there were even Jedi capable of utilizing the ability in a rather similar fashion. And they also were known before Sidious utilized them (as the "The Jedi Path" was written before the events depicted in "Dark Empire"😉.

Did any of them threaten to consume all of space, or even Eclipse super star destroyers? It's a matter of scale, funnily enough if it's just a question of letting the dark side flow through you.

So, obviously, other people did utilize them before, but to what extend is totally unknown. Assuming that Sidious was the first to utilize them in the way he did is just, you know, an assumption, since the only people mentioned being not as good as him with it, are the dark side adepts who followed his orders and learned it from him to a certain extend.

Well, let me put it this way; any semi-realistic challengers to his throne of most powerful sith have enough information documenting them, and were in enough combat situations that would have benefited from force storms, that we can be pretty sure they never matched him, or we would've known about it.