Is Palpatine a universe buster?

Space, and statements relating to it, are all relative. It probably means proximate space. Otherwise, Luke'd be a universe-buster as well, in which case the events of FotJ wouldn't have been a problem for him. That being said, Sidious' Wormholes could gradually expand in size such that they'd threaten the entire galaxy and beyond, but Palpatine would've lost control of them long before that point, and if that happened, it probably would've dissipated like the one that Palpatine lost control of in DE II. So technically, the Wormholes could eventually "threaten all of space", but Palpatine wouldn't be able to control them anymore by that point.

Anyway, Temp's just messing with you, AP.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. We know Nihilus compliments his "planetary" Force attacks with orbital bombardment

Or it's a rhetorical device intended to illustrate the immediate and intended target: the New Republic fleet.

It doesn't say all of local space. It says all of space.

The Comics Companion seems more authoritative than your skepticism.

"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin."
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I know some of you are immediately going to say "blasted" doesn't mean bombardment, but given that it mentions his flagship, that's easily the most logical inference. And that does fit in with Nihilus' rather contradicting performance during the Battle of Telos IV. Oh, and Nihilus was amped during the Katarr feat as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Then that's what you call a retcon.

Unless, of course, that statement isn't actually correct.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You see buildings crumbling, which obviously isn't the product of Drain. Given that Nihilus' future planetary conquests all involved orbital bombardment, I find it incredibly unlikely that this was some sort of Force Power he was using. Why the need for fleet bombardment when you can just invoke your powers to destroy the landscape?

Care to tell me what weapons on Interdictor class starships that cause massive black engulfing clouds that spread like tendrils across entire planetary surfaces? Because when Malak massed his fleet of those same ships to perform a bombardment, it just about destroyed a single city... not nearly what is depicted in Unseen, Unheard.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Battle of Telos IV makes it blatantly obvious that Nihilus couldn't just Drain entire planets on a whim. That's why Telos and its population, you know, survived...

Or maybe it was the fact that Nihilus did try to drain Telos IV, but the wounded planet actually weakened him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Space, and statements relating to it, are all relative. It probably means proximate space. Otherwise, Luke'd be a universe-buster as well, in which case the events of FotJ wouldn't have been a problem for him. That being said, Sidious' Wormholes could gradually expand in size such that they'd threaten the entire galaxy and beyond, but Palpatine would've lost control of them long before that point, and if that happened, it probably would've dissipated like the one that Palpatine lost control of in DE II. So technically, the Wormholes could eventually "threaten all of space", but Palpatine wouldn't be able to control them anymore by that point.

Anyway, Temp's just messing with you, AP.

Except the passage identifies the volume of space involved: "all" of it. If he said "threatens to consume space," an argument for local space could be easily entertained.

Invalidating the quote because Luke didn't moonwalk through FOTJ seems suspect IMO.

@Temp -

Except the passage identifies the volume of space involved: "all" of it. If he said "threatens to consume space," an argument for local space could be easily entertained.

I'm contesting the quote on the basis that the Force itself isn't a universe-buster. There's no way that a power produced from the Force could destroy the universe.

Invalidating the quote because Luke didn't moonwalk through FOTJ seems suspect IMO.

As I said, I'm invalidating the quote on the basis that the Force itself is a product of life in the universe, and that it can't realistically or holistically destroy the universe.

It's more suspect to suggest that Palpatine would have any intention of threatening all of space when he intends to rule it. In other words, it's hyperbole.

I don't think for a second that the Emperor intended to destroy the universe.

@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?

2. The clouds could well just be smoke arising from the destruction of the buildings and impacts from the turbolasers.

And as I recall, all of Taris got destroyed (the entire planet is a city, like Coruscant). The specific order from Malak was to wipe the entire planet out, and future sources referencing the bombardment refer to the entire planet being wrecked.

3. Does this have any basis, or is this just assumed like your 10 000 Jedi in the post-KotOR timeframe?

Except any kind of Force storm isn't going to do any better than, and frankly the actual feats of his Force storms don't even begin to approach, a supermassive black hole, which can't even 'bust' the core of a galaxy, nevermind 'all of space', I.E the universe.

It's very clearly localised Temp, because any other conclusion is ludicrous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think for a second that the Emperor intended to destroy the universe.

Per the quote, he either intends to destroy all of space or it's unintentional (ie. it's out of his control). I don't think you'd support the latter, and it's obvious that he only actually loses control once the Force Harmony commences, so the latter option is pretty much ruled out.

If you don't believe that the former was the case, then the only alternative you have left is it being hyperbole.

Not at all. It says he unleashed the full power of his hatred. I think he was extremely pissed and only intended to smite the New Republic fleet... But inadvertently loosed a storm that threatens all of space as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. It says he unleashed the full power of his hatred. I think he was extremely pissed and only intended to smite the New Republic fleet... But inadvertently loosed a storm that threatens all of space as well.

Threatening all of space amounts to threatening the very dimensions that comprise the universe itself, which is an infinitely grander scale than smiting the New Republic fleet. At that point in time, the Storm itself would in no way pose a threat to the dimension of space itself. Canonically superior Force users haven't been able to do anything like that.

As I said earlier, the only way the Storm would ever possibly threaten the universe (even theoretically) is if it were left unabated for an immeasurably long time and allowed to expand of its own accord (again, assuming that it doesn't just dissipate as per the Storm that Palpatine lost control of in DE), but long before that point, Palpatine would no longer be able to control the Storm. So that's not really worth mentioning in a battle thread or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster.

tl;dr - Even taking the quote literally, at its very best, it still can't be used in battle threads literally or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster. The far easier and more logical assumption is that it's hyperbole.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Threatening all of space amounts to threatening the very dimensions that comprise the universe itself, which is an infinitely grander scale than smiting the New Republic fleet. At that point in time, the Storm itself would in no way pose a threat to the dimension of space itself. Canonically superior Force users haven't been able to do anything like that.

As I said earlier, the only way the Storm would ever possibly threaten the universe (even theoretically) is if it were left unabated for an immeasurably long time and allowed to expand of its own accord (again, assuming that it doesn't just dissipate as per the Storm that Palpatine lost control of in DE), but long before that point, Palpatine would no longer be able to control the Storm. So that's not really worth mentioning in a battle thread or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster.

tl;dr - Even taking the quote literally, at its very best, it still can't be used in battle threads literally or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster. The far easier and more logical assumption is that it's hyperbole.

I'm aware that threatening all of space is infinitely greater than destroying the fleet. I'm simply telling you that, per the quote, Palpatine is extremely pissed and as is often the case when people are extremely pissed, precision and control might have been compromised. It's not an outlandish notion at all.

The idea that the quote is invalidated because superior Force users haven't demonstrated that kind of power might be worth considering if feats in Star Wars were consistent.

Your argument assumes the only way this is possible is for Sheev to lose control of it and for an enormous length of time... Neither of these assumptions have been proven by you.

1. Then the question is whether you believe that the Storms threatened all of space at that moment, or if given time. Because the former is disproven by the instance itself, whereby, say, the surrounding galaxies were under no threat whatsoever.

2. It's not even about feats - just the fact that three innately greater Force users (by a large margin) in the Ones can tear apart the fabric of the universe, but they can only do that when warring with each other. An immeasurably inferior Force user like Sidious isn't going to be able to manage that on his own. And once again, the Force itself isn't powerful enough to destroy the universe, since it's really just an aspect of it. Implying that a Force Power wielded by a finite vessel can threaten the universe itself is reaching desperately. I know you're toying, though.

3. Sure it is. The fact that Palpatine's Force Storms dissipate right after destroying planetary surfaces/fleets indicates a limit to their power and existence. They don't even live long enough to fulfill my theory. In fact, the very Wormhole that was described by that source as "threatening all of space" dissipated shortly after destroying the fleet. In no way could that have been depicted as a threat to all of space, except in hyperbole.

The storm dissipated shortly after it consumed the Emperor, there's no evidence to suggest that the limit is related to planetary mass. In fact, clearly that's not the case: we know it can kill worlds and yet the storm vanishes after consuming a single Star Destroyer. It's because the Emperor died.

The idea that because The Anchorites are capable of wreaking havoc on the universe precludes the Emperor from doing so is unfounded. No one is saying that the Emperor is their equal, which would imply that feats of destruction are the only way to measure great power.

So far, your argument has an abundance of assumptions and a dearth of evidence.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin."
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I know some of you are immediately going to say "blasted" doesn't mean bombardment, but given that it mentions his flagship, that's easily the most logical inference. And that does fit in with Nihilus' rather contradicting performance during the Battle of Telos IV. Oh, and Nihilus was amped during the Katarr feat as well.

1. Actually, it's probably because the Emperor was "cut off" from his Storm, which meant it had no source or anything to fuel itself, so it couldn't keep going. It would've devoured the Emperor and the Eclipse in its dying stages. If the Emperor had been cut off from the Storm, he would no longer have any meaningful relation to it, meaning that his death would be inconsequential. So as I said, it's likely him being cut off from the Storm that caused it to wane and eventually dissipate, not his actual death (by which the time he was non-Force sensitive, IIRC).

Anyway, you both failed to answer my question and you neglected to address the fact that the very Wormhole being described as a threat to space itself obviously wasn't a threat to all of space.

2. The fact that the Anchorites are only capable of wreaking such havoc when they're fighting amongst themselves is my point. Each of them is already immeasurably more powerful than Sidious, and more than one of them has to fight with another in order to portend such a threat to the fabric of reality itself. Once again, Sidious is an immeasurably inferior vessel of the Force and is on his lonesome here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?

2. The clouds could well just be smoke arising from the destruction of the buildings and impacts from the turbolasers.

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yup, that's exactly what I'm going to say. And considering we so no orbital bombardment on Katarr, I find your inference tenous at best. 😬

How so? Nihilus has failed to replicate such a measure of Drain whenever it was convenient for him to do so.

And again, why would they mention the Ravager if the blasting wasn't a reference to it? As per Occam's Razor and a variant of Chekhov's Gun, we can assume that the "blasting" refers to the Ravager blasting the worlds into ruin.