Is Palpatine a universe buster?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did Vitiate's drain not destroy buildings on the planet's surface? Guess he employed orbital bombardment as well?😂

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

1. The Nathema one? Buildings/vehicles were only destroyed because the people themselves were vaporized, so there was nothing left to work on them. Therefore, the speeders would've kept going on until they crashed into, say, a wall, which I believe the novel describes. The building foundations themselves were intact, as I recall.

2. Artistically, when buildings fall, they create giant dust clouds. In fact, impacts in an area in some artistic sources are depicted as giant clouds. In fact, what we see is billowing clouds from destroyed buildings.

My other response is on the last page.

@Temp - To simplify the argument, the fact that the Wormhole being described as a threat to all of space wasn't in fact a threat to all of space contradicts and invalidates the quote. It makes it pretty clear that your quote is hyperbolic.

That's my evidence - the fact that the Wormhole in question obviously wasn't a threat to all of space. The fact that you think it's reasonable means you're the one loaded with assumptions, not me. It's blatantly not a threat to all of space.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Actually, it's probably because the Emperor was "cut off" from his Storm, which meant it had no source or anything to fuel itself, so it couldn't keep going. It would've devoured the Emperor and the Eclipse in its dying stages. If the Emperor had been cut off from the Storm, he would no longer have any meaningful relation to it, meaning that his death would be inconsequential. So as I said, it's likely him being cut off from the Storm that caused it to wane and eventually dissipate, not his actual death (by which the time he was non-Force sensitive, IIRC).

Anyway, you both failed to answer my question and you neglected to address the fact that the very Wormhole being described as a threat to space itself obviously wasn't a threat to all of space.

2. The fact that the Anchorites are only capable of wreaking such havoc when they're fighting amongst themselves is my point. Each of them is already immeasurably more powerful than Sidious, and more than one of them has to fight with another in order to portend such a threat to the fabric of reality itself. Once again, Sidious is an immeasurably inferior vessel of the Force and is on his lonesome here.

1. Which again does not remotely imply that planetary mass is sufficient to tax the storm when it dissipates after consuming an exponentially smaller object (the Eclipse). You have provided no evidence for this claim.

2. What question?

3. The Comic's Companion says the storm threatened to consume all of space. The fact that it didn't doesn't mean the threat wasn't there. The Emperor was killed and, consequently, the storm dissipated and the threat was removed.

4. Nowhere is it said that the ONLY way the Anchorites can threaten the universe is by their direct conflict. Else The Father wouldn't have an issue with The Son leaving, right? Your interpretation means as long as they're separated, there would be no cosmic threat. And yet all parties expend enormous effort to keep Tbe Son contained on Mortis.

Again, many assumptions, no evidence. I'm going to need more before I disregard an explicit declaration from a credible authority.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?

So we're going to ignore the fact Vitiate's draining of Ziost also damaged the surface of the planet, but when it comes to Nihilus, his fleet must have been involved? Ok then.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The clouds could well just be smoke arising from the destruction of the buildings and impacts from the turbolasers.

Except, the smoke isn't rising in plumes like the smoke from explosions. It's a large black storm cloud spreading across the entire surface.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And as I recall, all of Taris got destroyed (the entire planet is a city, like Coruscant). The specific order from Malak was to wipe the entire planet out, and future sources referencing the bombardment refer to the entire planet being wrecked.

Which would be acceptable if SWTOR and even KOTOR's own cutscenes, didn't depict something absolutely nothing like Coruscant or a planet-wide city.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Does this have any basis, or is this just assumed like your 10 000 Jedi in the post-KotOR timeframe?

I assume you've read Star Wars The Old Republic Revan right?

Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands.
- Revan

As for Nihilus on Telos IV, hell let's clear this up entirely. Nihilus can destroy Citadel Station, which is enormous itself, as well as the planet beneath it:

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer."
-Tobin, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

Infact, it is pretty specific that he himself does the deed, not his ship:

"Then her lies will mean the planet's destruction, he will destroy all of Telos. He will turn it to fire again and crush the planet beneath him."
-Visas Marr, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

"The last known Convocation occured on Katarr some 3,952 years before the Battle of Yavin. The assembled Jedi were slaughtered when the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus laid waste to the planet."
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet of Katarr, where a secret conclave of the most powerful Jedi were taking place."
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

1. I wasn't referring to planetary mass, but fair enough.

2. Whether you felt that the Storm was a threat to all of space at that very point or if you thought that the Storm could be a threat to all of space given time to develop.

3. Except the Storm wasn't of sufficient magnitude to cover any significant fraction of the universe, and it's not like it left a permanent void in space wherever it travelled. Ergo, as it moves, it leaves behind some empty space. Empty, yes, but space nonetheless. The punctures in space clearly mend themselves. The Wormhole could travel around the universe for however long it wanted, but it wouldn't be destroying the universe itself.

I mean, there's a pretty simple analogy for it - if I punched a hole in a sheet of paper, would there ever be a point where a hole punched in the paper would ever be able to destroy the paper itself? No, there isn't. You can only destroy the paper entirely if you punch a hole surrounding the paper, not a hole from within. That corresponds to the universe only being able to be destroyed by trans-universal forces, not a wormhole from within.

4. That's the reason that all of the Ones had to move to Mortis, otherwise just one or two would've sufficed. And the Father didn't want the Son leaving Mortis because he could influence galactic events, not the fabric of reality itself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How so? Nihilus has failed to replicate such a measure of Drain whenever it was convenient for him to do so.

And again, why would they mention the Ravager if the blasting wasn't a reference to it? As per Occam's Razor and a variant of Chekhov's Gun, we can assume that the "blasting" refers to the Ravager blasting the worlds into ruin.

But again, we see no evidence of orbital bombardment in Unseen, Unheard, and we know planetary scale drain can do damage to buildings. So if we are going to apply Ockham's razor, the simplest explanation is that "blasting" is referring to his explosive application of drain. Your suggestion only raises problems, not resolves them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Nathema one? Buildings/vehicles were only destroyed because the people themselves were vaporized, so there was nothing left to work on them. Therefore, the speeders would've kept going on until they crashed into, say, a wall, which I believe the novel describes. The building foundations themselves were intact, as I recall.

2. Artistically, when buildings fall, they create giant dust clouds. In fact, impacts in an area in some artistic sources are depicted as giant clouds. In fact, what we see is billowing clouds from destroyed buildings.

My other response is on the last page.

2. A ridiculously contrived explanation, for one the cloud is visible from space (no amount of destroyed buildings would be) and as single mass despite the buildings being scattered across the planet; secondly dust clouds are not black and if you look at the panels, a clear distinction is made between the dark clouds of the storm and the comparatively lighter clouds emerging from the destroyed buildings; then finally and most compellingly, despite seeing a view of the planet's destruction from space, nowhere is the Ravager depicted firing at the planet, which for the record it would have been impossible for a single capital ship to achieve so quickly.

Altogether I suggest refreshing your memory of the source material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK8UiRGIltY

Because your assessment couldn't be more off.

@AP

1. Who said Vitiate's Ziost event and Nihilus' Katarr event were identical in terms of the powers enacted?

2. The black cloud travelling across the atmosphere couldn't be the black smoke billowing from the buildings in the next panel?

3. Ah. More evidence of Drew not knowing anything then. I mean, you could argue it'd be a retcon, except I believe codexes in SWTOR describe the Jedi during the Purge. I'll have to find it.

4. The fact that Visas and Tobin claim that Nihilus "will" destroy Telos but he didn't works in my favor, not yours. Nothing prohibits him from destroying Telos in the same way as he did Katarr, assuming that he can just enact some Force power to "turn it to fire" again. The phrase "turn it to fire" implies orbital bombardment as well.

Again, I'm referring you to the quote where the Storm could consume all of space. Does that mean it would literally destroy empty space alongside tangible objects like planets? No idea and I don't think the quote demands a particular interpretation.

I think the storm threatened to consume all of space the moment it was summoned, per the quote. Doesn't mean it could have succeeded immediately at that moment, though.

The fact that The Father moved his children to Mortis indicates to me that any and all of them were existential threats to the temporal universe. I don't think The Father gave a rats ass about anything less, which is why he was aware of but ignored galactic menaces like the Clone Wars and the Sith.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean, there's a pretty simple analogy for it - if I punched a hole in a sheet of paper, would there ever be a point where a hole punched [b]in the paper would ever be able to destroy the paper itself? No, there isn't. You can only destroy the paper entirely if you punch a hole surrounding the paper, not a hole from within. That corresponds to the universe only being able to be destroyed by trans-universal forces, not a wormhole from within. [/B]

@Beni -

1. More like a plot hole, just like Nihilus' ship staying together after his death.

2. Implying that "blast" refers to Drain is even more problematic than what I suggested.

3. Volcanic ash clouds are visible in space. If it travels into the atmosphere in sufficient quantities, it's visible from space. Also, could that just not be storm clouds? As you correctly distinguished, the clouds emitted from the destruction are lighter. The black clouds in the sky just sit in the atmosphere and do nothing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If you punched enough holes in the paper, it would be reduced to tatters and fall apart. mmm

Except the fabric of the sheet (the paper) would still be intact. That's what space is/corresponds to in my analogy. The sheet itself is the universe, the paper surface/material being the fabric of space.

@SR

1.The affects were different, the effects were not.

2.Because black clouds traverse surfaces like tendrils crawling across the planet? Dat some weird ass smoke.

3.The 'Sith Triumvirate' codex entry makes no solid mention of the order's strength, just that it was wiped out by them.

4.Uh... it states he will destroy the station.. that probably causes a lot of fire. Kreia tricked Nihilus into going to Telos IV, knowing his hunger wouldn't be satiated, making him weaker than usual.

It states he will 'obliterate' and 'crush' the planet, as well as Citadel Station.

It is obviously not the fleet.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, I'm referring you to the quote where the Storm could consume all of space. Does that mean it would literally destroy empty space alongside tangible objects like planets? No idea and I don't think the quote demands a particular interpretation.

Well, it obviously doesn't mean that, given that the Wormholes don't destroy empty space.

I think the storm threatened to consume all of space the moment it was summoned, per the quote. Doesn't mean it could have succeeded immediately at that moment, though.

Yet it was in no position to threaten "all of space" in that moment. For that matter, even the word "threaten" is relative and different definitions.

The fact that The Father moved his children to Mortis indicates to me that any and all of them were existential threats to the temporal universe. I don't think The Father gave a rats ass about anything less, which is why he was aware of but ignored galactic menaces like the Clone Wars and the Sith. [/B][/QUOTE]

Alright, fair enough. I have to hit the sack now, though.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Beni -

1. More like a plot hole, just like Nihilus' ship staying together after his death.

2. Implying that "blast" refers to Drain is even more problematic than what I suggested.

3. Volcanic ash clouds are visible in space. If it travels into the atmosphere in sufficient quantities, it's visible from space. Also, could that just not be storm clouds? As you correctly distinguished, the clouds emitted from the destruction are lighter. The black clouds in the sky just sit in the atmosphere and do nothing.

2. Not when Force drain can do physical destruction as seen on Ziost and indeed Katarr.

3. We're not dealing with volcanic ash clouds. And I imagine you'd have to have the eruption of several supervolcanos to create such a giant mass. And from what storm? Regardless in the panel depicting the buildings collapsing, you can see that the clouds are penetrating well below the cloudline, and I'm given the impression they are causing the destruction.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except the fabric of the sheet (the paper) would still be intact. That's what space is/corresponds to in my analogy. The sheet itself is the universe, the paper surface/material being the fabric of space.

They also aren't acting like clouds of smoke rising from turbolaser impacts, they appear to be like tendrils spreading across the surface. It is clearly not some effect of orbital bombardment.

But anyway, drain has always dealt physical effects, both Vitiate and Nihilus have done surface damage to the planets they've destroyed. Though Nihilus didn't need any aid and his powers appear to deal more surface damage too.

I think the statement that Nihilus can destroy a station as large as Citadel station with his powers is insane, that thing covers a considerably large section of the planet itself.

He is essentially unrivalled in terms of raw destructive power.

#GOAT

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. We know Nihilus compliments his "planetary" Force attacks with orbital bombardment, which makes it much less impressive than Sidious' Force Storms. Nor the Ziost thing, even though that's probably a ritual.

And on what grounds are you assuming Ziost-based event to be a ritual?

Vitiate expended lot of energy possessing individuals across the planet and utilized them for violent activities that would lead to deaths and those deaths would replenish him faster. Amidst all of this, he have time to perform a ritual? Makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by AncientPower
But anyway, drain has always dealt physical effects, both Vitiate and Nihilus have done surface damage to the planets they've destroyed. Though Nihilus didn't need any aid and his powers appear to deal more surface damage too.

Vitiate didn't need any aid either; he destroyed the world when his strength had been fully restored. And there is no way to prove whether Katarr was more destructive or Ziost; this is meaningless dick-measuring point. But to enlighten you a bit; Vitiate's expression of Force Drain consumed not just living beings but even oceans and also extensively harmed the planet's atmosphere and flora, leaving large swaths of corrosive lands and anomalies on the surface.

SunRazer, your argument is set up in such a way that it requires far more explaining than the quote. Some of the claims you're throwing out are beyond your ability to back up with any kind of absolute fact. Our minds can comprehend what destroy/consume all of space implies, but it's far beyond our comprehension to understand all of space let alone how it can even be consumed. It's like creating a fictional character and stating that he has been around forever or since before the beginning of time, I can go into depths on how it doesn't make sense because "before the beginning or time" means that there was a time before time, thus contradicting the word beginning in the term. Logically it would just imply that there was no period of time in which the character didn't exist; he's just been around forever.

Regardless of whether or not we can wrap our heads around it, the quote implies that Palpatine, in his max rage, can potentially consume the universe. Being unable to grasp such a concept doesn't mean it's hyperbole.

Going by your strict definition of being a universe buster, well, then...there is none in all of comicbookdom. Not TOAA, Tribunal and any other comic character stated to have destroyed universes, multiverses and whatever.

Space is HUGE. Theirs no way a Force storm can affect the whole universe.

@LeGenD, the landscape depicted upon Nihilus' retrieval of Visas Marr is far more damaged than what we see on Ziost. Everything was completely and utterly flattened, even the mountains appeared to have suffered extensive damage compared to previous effects. What we see on Katarr is just on a more physically destructive level.

@S66, There is a massive difference between what those characters in comicbook verses do and what is claimed in regards to Palpatine's Force storms, a Force storm is a wormhole in space, no such anomaly could possibly absorb the universe. A supermassive black hole, the most destructive force possible, is not capable of absorbing a galactic core, nevermind the universe itself.

Given that the universe busting is thoroughly illogical, we must analyse the fact that, if the Force storm was indeed capable of threatening 'all of space' then the following statement that it threatened the fleet too would be redundant. So logical analysis would leave us with the idea that Palpatine threatened local space.