Is Palpatine a universe buster?

Started by S_W_LeGenD19 pages

Originally posted by AncientPower
@LeGenD, the landscape depicted upon Nihilus' retrieval of Visas Marr is far more damaged than what we see on Ziost. Everything was completely and utterly flattened, even the mountains appeared to have suffered extensive damage compared to previous effects. What we see on Katarr is just on a more physically destructive level.

You are overreaching.

The planet was not destroyed, it remains… it orbits, dead in space, but nothing lives on its surface. It echoes, but there is no one left to hear it. (Visas Marr)

You are laughably ignoring the visual depiction.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are overreaching.

The planet was not destroyed, it remains… it orbits, dead in space, but nothing lives on its surface. It echoes, but there is no one left to hear it. (Visas Marr)

😬 That doesn't conttradict AP's point at all. All you're telling us is that the planet itself wasn't destroyed - nobody claimed that it was annihilated Death Star style, lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You are laughably ignoring the visual depiction.

The visual depiction presents us a murky view of the planet after the deed. We don't get a clear view of its landscape. Therefore, what became of the landscape, remains open to interpretation and opinion.

My point is that Force Drain powers do not destroy inanimate objects to an extent that you are boasting/assuming. Force Drain powers are designed/intended to steal the energy of living beings. They are not telekinetic forces.

This is the only image we have of post-destruction Katarr from the surface:

First of all, it's not even clear that Vitiate used force drain to devastate Ziost. Secondly:

Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

Ziost's buildings were always shitholes. 🙂

Edit: Credit to S_W_LeGenD for the above quote. 🙂

👆

The God Emperor's approval is always welcome. 🙂

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SunRazer, your argument is set up in such a way that it requires far more explaining than the quote. Some of the claims you're throwing out are beyond your ability to back up with any kind of absolute fact. Our minds can comprehend what destroy/consume all of space implies, but it's far beyond our comprehension to understand all of space let alone how it can even be consumed. It's like creating a fictional character and stating that he has been around forever or since before the beginning of time, I can go into depths on how it doesn't make sense because "before the beginning or time" means that there was a time before time, thus contradicting the word beginning in the term. Logically it would just imply that there was no period of time in which the character didn't exist; he's just been around forever.

Not sure what you're talking about. None of the stuff we're discussing here is hard to get our heads around, because Palpatine isn't at that level of sheer reality warping, nor is he a cosmic entity. We can comprehend entirely if he's threatening the universe - but he obviously wasn't in the instance in question.

Regardless of whether or not we can wrap our heads around it, the quote implies that Palpatine, in his max rage, can potentially consume the universe. Being unable to grasp such a concept doesn't mean it's hyperbole.

Except he can't. The Force itself lacks the means of destroying all of the universe. A finite vessel wielding a finite aspect of the Force can't possibly do that, and the quote mentions it threatening all of space in present tense. That clearly didn't happen. It's hyperbole - get it through your head and stop whinging over how people can't comprehend it. It's obviously not what happened in the source itself.

Going by your strict definition of being a universe buster, well, then...there is none in all of comicbookdom. Not TOAA, Tribunal and any other comic character stated to have destroyed universes, multiverses and whatever.

Based on what? LT can destroy universes on a whim, because he transcends the dimensions that comprise a universe. The image of him we see in the comic books is explicitly an avatar he's constructed for the benefit of lesser beings perceiving him.

For the Nihilus stuff, I'll respond later.

Originally posted by AncientPower
@LeGenD, the landscape depicted upon Nihilus' retrieval of Visas Marr is far more damaged than what we see on Ziost. Everything was completely and utterly flattened, even the mountains appeared to have suffered extensive damage compared to previous effects. What we see on Katarr is just on a more physically destructive level.

@S66, There is a massive difference between what those characters in comicbook verses do and what is claimed in regards to Palpatine's Force storms, a Force storm is a wormhole in space, no such anomaly could possibly absorb the universe. A supermassive black hole, the most destructive force possible, is not capable of absorbing a galactic core, nevermind the universe itself.

Given that the universe busting is thoroughly illogical, we must analyse the fact that, if the Force storm was indeed capable of threatening 'all of space' then the following statement that it threatened the fleet too would be redundant. So logical analysis would leave us with the idea that Palpatine threatened local space.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Most likely because the New Republic fleet is (a) the immediate target, (b) allies of our intrepid heroes, and (c) inside space... all of which is threatened to be consumed.

watch?v=W60NtmUfxkk

Kinda like here. Sam is trying to arrange a meeting with Lucifer via Crowley to stop the ultimate existential threat, but at 3:17, he says "the point is to try to save everyone's bacon, including yours."

Redundant perhaps, but a commonly used rhetorical tool.

It's rhetorical, nothing more. 👍

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure what you're talking about. None of the stuff we're discussing here is hard to get our heads around, because Palpatine isn't at that level of sheer reality warping, nor is he a cosmic entity. We can comprehend entirely if he's threatening the universe - but he obviously wasn't in the instance in question.

I was referring to your paper analogy and your seeming strict definition of the term universe buster. It seems like you're trying to make sense of the unimaginable as a way to explain how it's not possible, which is beyond anyone.

The "threat" part seems to have been explained pretty well. In this case, the very thing that threatened all of space was at the time actively consuming what would/could have been all of space.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Except he can't.

That is what the quote implies.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Force itself lacks the means of destroying all of the universe. A finite vessel wielding a finite aspect of the Force can't possibly do that

You're arguing as if you have a full understanding of a fictional all powerful force that governs time and destiny of an entire universe. This isn't simple physics. Fact: all of space is beyond our comprehension. In-universe SW fact: so is the force. Therefore we can't know what it's capable of at full destructive potency.

Being an aspect of something doesn't mean the aspect lacks the ability to destroy the whole, especially regarding the powerful aspect within a fictional universe. (Nyriss was destroyed by an aspect of herself)

Originally posted by SunRazer
and the quote mentions it threatening all of space in present tense. That clearly didn't happen.

And obviously it was.

The source mentions all of space being threatened by such a powerful force that was unleashed and active at the time? Where is the contradiction?

Are we supposed to assume all of space an exaggeration of just the fleet? The quote implies something way and beyond than it's intended target. Prove your case by facts, and there'd be no reason to question it. Because mentioning more than the fleet makes far less sense than "rhetorically" referring to it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's hyperbole - get it through your head and stop whinging over how people can't comprehend it. It's obviously not what happened in the source itself.

I'm not whining at all. I simply find myself asking more questions regarding your argument than accepting what the quote implies. You're the one trying to make sense of it with math, which I'm stating is impossible and beyond anyone. But, by all means, keep going.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on what? LT can destroy universes on a whim, because he transcends the dimensions that comprise a universe.

And the full power of the dark side wielded by The Emperor can destroy all of space/time that comprise the universe. How does one make sense over the other?

Unless multiverse is equivalent to SW's single universe. I was referring to the characters said to be able to destroy 'it all' meaning all of existence, which isn't possible by your own argument.

@AP

That would be far beyond planet busting, tho. SR suggests lesser. And either way, it would still make no sense to even regard the fleet, right? Unless of course it was referred to rhetorically. Therefore, no, it wouldn't have to "logically" mean local space.

The only logical interpretation is Tempest's.

There is much wisdom in your words.

Especially the last six. 👍

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was referring to your paper analogy and your seeming strict definition of the term universe buster. It seems like you're trying to make sense of the unimaginable as a way to explain how it's not possible, which is beyond anyone.

It's not strict at all. What's your definition of "universe buster", then? Because I'm defining it as the words define themselves.

The "threat" part seems to have been explained pretty well. In this case, the very thing that threatened all of space was at the time actively consuming what would/could have been all of space.

No, it hasn't. At the point that the Wormhole was being described as a threat to space, it was a threat to nothing more than the New Republic fleet.

That is what the quote implies.

What?

This isn't simple physics. Fact: all of space is beyond our comprehension. In-universe SW fact: so is the force. Therefore we can't know what it's capable of at full destructive potency.

We're aware that the Force as we understand it was established concurrently with life. It doesn't predate or encompass the universe itself or anything. We're also aware that Palpatine doesn't wield the full power of the Force (not even close). I'm not even using physics; I'm using logic.

Being an aspect of something doesn't mean the aspect lacks the ability to destroy the whole, especially regarding the powerful aspect within a fictional universe. (Nyriss was destroyed by an aspect of herself)

Nyriss charged up and expended what was inferrably all of or a vast majority of her power. Palpatine doesn't wield all of or a vast majority of the Force's overall power, or anything close to that. So your analogy doesn't work - it also doesn't work because both Nyriss and the power she unleashed on herself were finite. They had limits, it was just that the power Nyriss unleashed was greater than the barriers she raised in defense when it was sent back on her. By contrast, Palpatine's power is finite, but space is infinite. It's not a comparable instance at all.

And obviously it was.

Show me where it "obviously" was a threat to all of space in the comic. Because I'm pretty sure someone on the other side of the galaxy wouldn't be aware of the occurrence of that Wormhole, much less feeling its effects or being threatened by it. I mean, if that's what you want to believe, then alright...

The source mentions all of space being threatened by such a powerful force that was unleashed and active at the time? Where is the contradiction?

The comic itself, perhaps? Where is it in the comic that all of space was feeling the repercussions or the threat of the Storm that Palpatine generated? You'd be deluded to assume that was the case. The Storm destroyed the Alliance base on the moon, yet not the moon itself. That clearly doesn't portend a threat to all of space.

Are we supposed to assume all of space an exaggeration of just the fleet? The quote implies something way and beyond than it's intended target.

I think it's an exaggeration of the proximate space, but regardless of what I think it is, I know what it isn't - a threat to all of space.

Prove your case by facts, and there'd be no reason to question it.

The facts are arrayed with me, here. You can't possibly argue that the Wormhole in question as depicted in the comics was a threat to all of space.

I'm not whining at all. I simply find myself asking more questions regarding your argument than accepting what the quote implies. You're the one trying to make sense of it with math, which I'm stating is impossible and beyond anyone. But, by all means, keep going.

I'm making sense of it with logic and displayed evidence, not math. And you're whining about how all of this transcends our understanding and what not. That sounds more like a cop-out for this discussion once your case gets proven to be logically unsound. "Oh, but that's because we can't use logic for this, since it transcends our comprehension" 👆

And the full power of the dark side wielded by The Emperor can destroy all of space/time that comprise the universe. How does one make sense over the other?

By making sense of the fact that the Wormhole the Emperor unleashed clearly didn't threaten all of space at the time?

Unless multiverse is equivalent to SW's single universe. I was referring to the characters said to be able to destroy 'it all' meaning all of existence, which isn't possible by your own argument.

Then we weren't discussing the same thing. I referred to LT being able to destroy single universes - obviously not the entire omniverse. But the ability to destroy single universes isn't unprecedented, and your argument isn't making any sense. You can destroy the universe/single universes in comics - it's just that Palpatine couldn't in DE.

@Sidious 66 - Temp's just messing around, lol.

Universe Buster:

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Sidious 66 - Temp's just messing around, lol.

Am I? The statement is explicit, comes from a credible, out of universe source, and isn't explicitly contradicted anywhere.

Star Wars is replete with elements that defy both scientific laws and basic reason.

Seems perfectly commensurate with the Emperor being the ultimate SW villain.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Am I? The statement is explicit, comes from a credible, out of universe source, and isn't explicitly contradicted anywhere.

Star Wars is replete with elements that defy both scientific laws and basic reason.

Seems perfectly commensurate with the Emperor being the ultimate SW villain.

Indeed you are. You're repeating yourself.

Just summing up why it makes sense to take the quote at face value. 👍

There's less reason to disregard it tbh.

Just summing up why only people who are in mental hospital wards would consider taking it at face value 👆

Welcome to Star Wars, where authorities say and do silly things all the time. 👍