Originally posted by MagnonExcalibur #25
The highlight of that issue, is ... it proved Galactus had tech that could erase the PF from existence.
In fact, the PF only ever lived again after that issue, because Galactus willed it so.
btw, Nova wasn't there to help G against Rachel,
Nova just happened to be his Hrald,
and Rachel just happened to show up and attack.
Originally posted by Mr Master
I know the story well. They didn't battle,
it was a mere scuffle which ended very quickly with no damage or superiority on either side.The highlight of that issue, is ... it proved Galactus had tech that could erase the PF from existence.
In fact, the PF only ever lived again after that issue, because Galactus willed it so.
btw, Nova wasn't there to help G against Rachel,
Nova just happened to be his Hrald,
and Rachel just happened to show up and attack.
I'm not denying that Galactus has the means to hurt the Phoenix if she surrenders and voluntarily allows Galactus to wrap her into his world eater machine and do whatever he pleases. Most characters can hurt most other characters under such conditions. But in a fight Phoenix looked better despite her being weary and unsuspecting. And this thread is about a fight, not a situation where the other is not allowed to fight back.
Rachel didn't "happen to show up and attack"; it was Galactus who showed up and attacked, with his herald by his side. It was a surprise attack against Ray, and she still did fine.
Originally posted by MagnonRachel certainly did humiliate Galactus
whilst Galactus was unable to harm Rachel at all during their fight.
A clear indication of Phoenix being more powerful than Galactus.
And Ray had just returned from a mission, she was tired and unsuspecting,
whereas Galactus was specifically coming after Phoenix.
Yet, Ray matched him effortlessly.
It was a surprise attack against Ray, and she still did fine.
I was wrong in that, Galactus did come looking for Rachel, so you was right about that.
I was right in that, it was a short scuffle with nothing of consequence, so you was wrong about that.
But actually, it was even less than that. 👆
The only thing Rachel did to Galactus was throw Nova at him, which knocked him down, but with no ill affect:
Then, Rachel submitted and ... that's it. 😬
Rachel never even touched Galactus with her own power.
and ... Rachel and Galactus never battled.
The only one that got stomped here was Nova.
So your perspective on the scenario friend, is/was way off with:
"Rachel certainly did humiliate Galactus"
"Galactus was unable to harm Rachel at all during their fight"
"clear indication of Phoenix being more powerful"
"Ray matched him effortlessly"
Originally posted by Mr Master
The highlight of that issue, is ... it proved Galactus had tech that could erase the PF from existence.In fact, the PF only ever lived again after that issue, because Galactus willed it so.
That issue proved two things though Mr. M : The PF IS a universal power (at least) and it's responsible for all the stars in the universe (shown on panel)***. The PF can destroy a universe (admitted to by Galactus himself) :
***This backs up Kubik's words to Kosmos with the PF being the mother of the stars and the "first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities" :
Later on in the Excalibur series, Galactus further states that the PF is the embodiment of all potential life :
This is huge. The Excalibur series was the PF swansong. It's been downhill from there on in. Marvel must really hate it.
IMHO, the Classic PF would kill Lifebringer Galactus.
Originally posted by zopzopBut then again, Rachel submitted herself to this. It's not like he overpowered her.
Originally posted by zopzopI mean Odin has spells that can take out Celestials doesn't mean he's more powerful than them.
And Loki and Grandmaster have imprisoned Death herself.
Originally posted by zopzopThat issue proved two things though Mr. M :
1) The PF IS a universal power (at least) and it's responsible for all the stars in the universe (shown on panel).
2) The PF can destroy a universe (admitted to by Galactus himself) :
3) This backs up Kubik's words to Kosmos with the PF being the mother of the stars
and the "first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities" :4) Later on in the Excalibur series, Galactus further states that the PF is the embodiment of all potential life
2) PF can destroy a universe, but not an Eternity/Infinity universe.
3) "Mother of the stars," ... you mean that jelly bean in Kubik's hand?
Stars are only of consequence concerning life that needs them. (alien races/humanoid races) ...
... The PF was the first presented in Kubik's museum cause it was the weakest.
Remember, Kubik was ascending up the food chain.
4) Galactus never said that, it was Rachel who made that hyperbolic boast ...
... Galactus repied: "No" ... and then schooled her on how it is:
Originally posted by zopzopIMHO, the Classic PF would kill Lifebringer Galactus.
All the major Concepts > PF
Originally posted by Mr Master
1) The PF never proved to be a "universal" power. I'm 100% certain the PF was never above the abstracts.The PF was respnosible for the stars, and the psyche of living beings was responsible for the PF. Chicken or the Egg?
2) PF can destroy a universe, but not an Eternity/Infinity universe.
3) "Mother of the stars," ... you mean that jelly bean in Kubik's hand?
Stars are only of consequence concerning life that needs them. (alien races/humanoid races) ...... The PF was the first presented in Kubik's museum cause it was the weakest.
Remember, Kubik was ascending up the food chain.
4) Galactus never said that, it was Rachel who made that hyperbolic boast ...... Galactus repied: "No" ... and then schooled her on how it is:
LBG stomped major Concpets below Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion.
All the major Concepts > PF
Back then, the stars were pretty much considered the ultimate power from what i remember; they were also regarded as being actual living beings. There was a Dr Strange story which established that the stars were the source of all energy - including mystical. so when the creators usurped the position of the stars they were considered to be the ultimate power in the universe iirc.
They even overpowered the Ancient One who at the time was basically an abstract level being (he managed to hold off Eternity in a separate comic and was implied to be beyond Death).
though i dont know how much Kaminski ,Claremont, or the other Phoenix writers knew of that story.
Order and Chaos are abstracts; they represent the concepts after which they are named. As Galactus said, after the rebirth of MU, these concepts are in turmoil. Order is experiencing disorder and Chaos is experiencing order, whereas Galactus is at peace with his new role. Thus the result of their fight might mostly reflect the fact that Order and Chaos are much weaker than what they used to be, instead of Galactus being much stronger.
Originally posted by MagnonNothing i saw from that fight suggest they were weaken. Honestly what you are saying sounds more like a theory. Both Order and Chaos seem in top shape to me 😄
Order and Chaos are abstracts; they represent the concepts after which they are named. As Galactus said, after the rebirth of MU, these concepts are in turmoil. Order is experiencing disorder and Chaos is experiencing order, whereas Galactus is at peace with his new role. Thus the result of their fight might mostly reflect the fact that Order and Chaos are much weaker than what they used to be, instead of Galactus being much stronger.
Originally posted by TheHulk
Nothing i saw from that fight suggest they were weaken. Honestly what you are saying sounds more like a theory. Both Order and Chaos seem in top shape to me 😄
Originally posted by MagnonI'm not saying that what you are suggesting is impossible as i find it a a very interesting perspective. Though really it looks like Galactus flat out beat them. I guess this is up for debate 🙂
There are two explanations, both equally valid a priori: either Galactus was stronger or O&C weaker than before. And based on what Galactus said, O&C were weakened by this internal turmoil I mentioned in my last post. It was what Galactus exploited to beat them.
