Lifebringer Galactus vs The Phoenix

Originally posted by Mr Master
Please good friend, before replying to my posts, know their context.

Inconsequential to my point old friend.

1) The PF never proved to be a "universal" power. I'm 100% certain the PF was never above the abstracts.
The PF was respnosible for the stars, and the psyche of living beings was responsible for the PF. Chicken or the Egg?

2) PF can destroy a universe, but not an Eternity/Infinity universe.

3) "Mother of the stars," ... you mean that jelly bean in Kubik's hand?
Stars are only of consequence concerning life that needs them. (alien races/humanoid races) ...

... The PF was the first presented in Kubik's museum cause it was the weakest.
Remember, Kubik was ascending up the food chain.

4) Galactus never said that, it was Rachel who made that hyperbolic boast ...

... Galactus repied: "No" ... and then schooled her on how it is:

LBG stomped major Concpets below Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion.

All the major Concepts > PF

TPF is a known universal threat throughout it's history.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
TPF is a known universal threat throughout it's history.

Originally posted by Magnon
Nah, Galan clearly pointed out the contradictions plaguing Order and Chaos which he exploited to beat them.

You are correct, but Chaos and Order were NOT weakened. Galactus gave them the equivalent of a blow to the larynx during the fight, but they were at full strength to begin the fight.

Originally posted by TheHulk
Personally, when it comes to being described a universal threat. I'll like to some potential power rather than just statements.

I would given the choice, but the description is consistent over decades.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You are correct, but Chaos and Order were NOT weakened. Galactus gave them the equivalent of a blow to the larynx during the fight, but they were at full strength to begin the fight.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I would given the choice, but the description is consistent over decades.

I demand thee evidence for such a claim 😛

Originally posted by TheHulk
I might have to read the fight again, but i thought he only gave that punch to Order.

Prove it 😉

I demand thee evidence for such a claim 😛

He did only give that punch to Order in order to initiate the battle. He then reduced Chaos to the size equivalent of a grape and crushed him between his fingers.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
He did only give that punch to Order in order to initiate the battle. He then reduced Chaos to the size equivalent of a grape and crushed him between his fingers.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Galactus gave them the equivalent of a blow to the larynx during the fight, but they were at full strength to begin the fight.

Originally posted by TheHulk
You said ''them'' 😉

Yes, I did. Again, the EQUIVALENT, in a metaphoric sense. The right blow to the throat would incapacitate a great fighter. And I was referring to the overall tactics he used to defeat LC and MO, not the opening punch.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I know the story well. They didn't battle,
it was a mere scuffle which ended very quickly with no damage or superiority on either side.

The highlight of that issue, is ... it proved Galactus had tech that could erase the PF from existence.

In fact, the PF only ever lived again after that issue, because Galactus willed it so.

btw, Nova wasn't there to help G against Rachel,
Nova just happened to be his Hrald,
and Rachel just happened to show up and attack.

The tech was killing Rachel not Phoenix Force.

I wouldn't put phoenix past a well fed normal galactus,let alone LB galan

Yeah, that's just bullshit.

Originally posted by zopzop

Eternity/Infinity universe? I'm not following Mr. M.

Galactus said the PF can destroy an entire universe
and Death backed up that claim but added that from that destruction it will bring about new life.

So it can destroy a universe and somehow aid in the creation of a new one.

The PF destroying a "cosmos?" At the time, yes, in theory, but yes, but not space-time and the concepts,
but rather,
the physical make-up of a universe. (eg. planets-stars-galaxies)

The Abstracts (and any self-sustaining entity) are completely unaffected by the PF wackin stars.
This is why in that Rachel scene we see that Galactus survives, and Death,
and I'm sure the Watcher, who also doesn't need a "sun" to live.
Therefore obviously all the Abstracts live on, and other entites on par or greater than Galactus.
Heck, even guys like Hyperion would go on.

As far as "creating" a universe? We've never seen that happen, not even in a "What If",
which is the only place where the PF actually did destroy the contents of a universe.
PF did this on two separate occasions in two "What Ifs."
In fact, I've never seen the PF/Jean/whathaveyou create or recreate anything more than a Planet.

Originally posted by zopzop

The Watcher even said without the PF there would be NO life in the universe or even potential for life.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yup. He was ascending up the food chain but the moral of the story was that it's all one big cycle.
They even ascended beyond the Beyond Realm and they were at the molecular level.

Then from there back right where they started.

I still find it hard to believe:
you think a "higher" ascension was "quarks/atoms/molecules/bacteria" which are located withIN Eternity/Infinity ...
... when Kubik & Kosmos clearly went outside/beyond Eternity.

Nah friend, obviously the "back right where they started" was inside Eternity at it's most basic level. ("quarks/atoms/molecules/bacteria"😉

Originally posted by zopzop

It was very telling that Kubik called the first layer the most important.
That was the layer dealing with the stars and the PF.

Hmm, off the top of my dome,
I can name 10 cats now, and 15 cats then, that wave a hand and an entire universe goes lights out, or on.

PF was first, and this represented the weakest link.

But, since at the time it was intrinsically connected to the stars,
it was most important concerning life that needs them.

But "stars?" ... Stars don't mean anything to anyone that was presented after the PF in that ascension.

Originally posted by zopzop

My bad, yeah. It draws it's power from all potential life. That's still huge.

The PF, in its in-universe manifested state (Rachel at the time) tapped into the near-infinite energies of life unborn.

But, not "all" life, just "life" that wiil need stars to survive.

Originally posted by "Id"
Again with this shit.

The tech was killing Rachel not Phoenix Force.

The tech was killing both Rachel and the PF who were one and the same at the time.

This is why Roma clearly stated:

"Behold, that child is Phoneix. Living embodiment of one of the primal forces.

You can no more divide her spirit from flesh than you can life from death.

There is a natural order to her being"

---------------------------------------------------

Galactus was never going to be able to "separate" them. Rachel WAS the PF embodied.

Ripping them apart would only kill both who were one. This is why the "stars were fading."

Because the PF was dying. ... Rachel? (on her own) 😂 who cares.

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr M(I am willfully ignorant of the PF), but didn't the Phoenix's only true universal 'feat' of destructive power occur in a What If back in the early 80s? Other than that, isn't its alleged 'universe-busting' power just lip-service?

...Or did I miss an extremely uber showing somewhere along the line?

^^ 👆 ... From what I know, you are correct brother G.

I likewise can only account for the two separate instances in the two What Ifs.

In both cases though, it was the contents of the universe that were burned away, (planets to galaxies) not space-time itself.

I know over 40 years of their history together,and in their 1st what if phoenix battles big G and he says wait you are the most powerful being I have ever met.Your power fairly rivals my own,I offer you to be my next hearald.She responds by blowing up his planetary destroying machines.G says very well Phoenix I could easily restore my machines and eventually destroy you,but such labor would be more than this world is worth to me.this tells me he could edge out the phoenix in power.And in their next encounter in ex-caliber 25,he hooks her up to equipment that would discorperate her however the suns start going out so he stops.In their 3rd encounter she blows up his planet drainig equipment leaving him starving and still gives her a good fight,and even teaches her her role in the universe proving he may be the smartest entity of all!

Forgot to say,this life bringer version of Galactus should be more powerful than chaos and order.That is a cosmic heavy indeed,although a G amped on 4 or 5 planets should be up there as well!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Eternity/Infinity > PF. You know this, I know it, we all know it.

The PF destroying a "cosmos?" At the time, yes, in theory, but yes, but not space-time and the concepts,
but rather,
the physical make-up of a universe. (eg. planets-stars-galaxies)

The Abstracts (and any self-sustaining entity) are completely unaffected by the PF wackin stars.
This is why in that Rachel scene we see that Galactus survives, and Death,
and I'm sure the Watcher, who also doesn't need a "sun" to live.
Therefore obviously all the Abstracts live on, and other entites on par or greater than Galactus.
Heck, even guys like Hyperion would go on.

As far as "creating" a universe? We've never seen that happen, not even in a "What If",
which is the only place where the PF actually did destroy the contents of a universe.
PF did this on two separate occasions in two "What Ifs."
In fact, I've never seen the PF/Jean/whathaveyou create or recreate anything more than a Planet.

... Life that needs stars.

We had this debate once before. That interpretation was incorrect then, as it is now old friend.

I still find it hard to believe:
you think a "higher" ascension was "quarks/atoms/molecules/bacteria" which are located withIN Eternity/Infinity ...
... when Kubik & Kosmos clearly went outside/beyond Eternity.

Nah friend, obviously the "back right where they started" was inside Eternity at it's most basic level. ("quarks/atoms/molecules/bacteria"😉

"most important?" ... lol ... "Stars?" ... Oh, the fragile jelly bean in Kubik's hand.

Hmm, off the top of my dome,
I can name 10 cats now, and 15 cats then, that wave a hand and an entire universe goes lights out, or on.

PF was first, and this represented the weakest link.

But, since at the time it was intrinsically connected to the stars,
it was most important concerning life that needs them.

But "stars?" ... Stars don't mean anything to anyone that was presented after the PF in that ascension.

Sorta.

The PF, in its in-universe manifested state (Rachel at the time) tapped into the near-infinite energies of life unborn.

But, not "all" life, just "life" that wiil need stars to survive.

Again with this shit.

The tech was killing both Rachel and the PF who were one and the same at the time.

This is why Roma clearly stated:

"Behold, that [b]child is Phoneix. Living embodiment of one of the primal forces.

You can no more divide her spirit from flesh than you can life from death.

There is a natural order to her being"

---------------------------------------------------

Galactus was never going to be able to "separate" them. Rachel WAS the PF embodied.

Ripping them apart would only kill both who were one. This is why the "stars were fading."

Because the PF was dying. ... Rachel? (on her own) 😂 who cares. [/B]

Originally posted by Galan007
Correct me if I'm wrong Mr M(I am willfully ignorant of the PF), but didn't the Phoenix's only true universal 'feat' of destructive power occur in a What If back in the early 80s? Other than that, isn't its alleged 'universe-busting' power just lip-service?

...Or did I miss an extremely uber showing somewhere along the line?

Maelstrom with Anomaly's power, the Quantum Bands unlocked by Cosmic Awareness, backing by Oblivion, and his own kinetic energy manipulation powers needed time to do it (he actually never finished his job so it shouldn't count) and only via a gigantic black hole he used his Anomaly powers to designate it the center of the universe (or it wouldn't have worked in the first place).

Universe busting is a rarity on panel in Marvel. If Galactus thought the PF could do it (and Death itself agreed), then it could do it.

Originally posted by zopzop
Universe busting is a rarity on panel in Marvel. If Galactus thought the PF could do it (and Death itself agreed), then it could do it.

When PF very very easily destroyed that What If universe, writers only wanted to show PF really has such destructive power (it doesn't matter it wasn't 616), they just wanted to show a clear indication of PF destructive power.

Of course, like you said, Galactus and Death were of the same thoughts.

Has PF done any significant thing in recent years?

Originally posted by Inedian
When PF very very easily destroyed that What If universe, writers only wanted to show PF really has such destructive power (it doesn't matter it wasn't 616), they just wanted to show a clear indication of PF destructive power.

Of course, like you said, Galactus and Death were of the same thoughts.

Has PF done any significant thing in recent years?

Originally posted by zopzop

There was another more recent What If (What If Vulcan became the Phoenix) and it was pretty favorable to the PF. It made it seem like a true multiversal force.

Yes, I remember, already more than five years of that showing. He had a good showing, although I don't remember detailed. WPOTC also had a nice showing with that orphan universe.