His accolades putting himself above any entity who has came before as per the codex and the encyclopedia, meaning he's better than Soa, the World Razer, Exar Kun, the Dread Masters, etc. And then SoR portrayed Vitiate as being significantly more powerful than any being in the galaxy and that if Revan resuects him, the Galaxy would be dead.
His hype surrounding his telepathic and corruption abilities. It's said Jedi can fall to the dark side by just being in his presence. We also see his mind just skimming against Scourge's sending him to the ground. The Wrath remarked even the Dread Masters, who devastated fleets and changed worlds, were nothing to the powers of Vitiate.
His hype. It's clear the writers want him more of a Palpatine than a Revan/Krayt. Even before his transformation he was a prodigal child who was the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Then he consumed the power of an entire world and 8,000 Sith Lords and became immortal. He then had thousands of years to further hone and master his dark side abilities.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Krayt displayed Force reserves along similar lines to Luke Skywalker, albeit inevitably inferior, at a time where he was a hundred years before his prime. Luke likely being superior to Palpatine and Valkorion. I think he'd be better than any of them as well. According to Marr, who isn't much of a source, "All life in the galaxy, in time" would be consumed, after Vitiate would destroy Revan and the other main characters. In that sense I agree, Vitiate would eventually kill off/drain anyone who couldn't stand against him. But maybe not all at once.
His accolades putting himself above any entity who has came before as per the codex and the encyclopedia, meaning he's better than Soa, the World Razer, Exar Kun, the Dread Masters, etc. And then SoR portrayed Vitiate as being significantly more powerful than any being in the galaxy and that if Revan resuects him, the Galaxy would be dead.His hype surrounding his telepathic and corruption abilities. It's said Jedi can fall to the dark side by just being in his presence. We also see his mind just skimming against Scourge's sending him to the ground. The Wrath remarked even the Dread Masters, who devastated fleets and changed worlds, were nothing to the powers of Vitiate.
His hype. It's clear the writers want him more of a Palpatine than a Revan/Krayt. Even before his transformation he was a prodigal child who was the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Then he consumed the power of an entire world and 8,000 Sith Lords and became immortal. He then had thousands of years to further hone and master his dark side abilities.
I can agree Viti has better telepathy, the question is more whether or not he could use it successfully against Krayt. Krayt's willpower is insane.
Eh. Things Krayt has in common with Sidious:
-Rose the Sith and ruled over them in secret as their Emperor
-Ruled the galaxy and came close to destroying the Jedi (with sources even juxtaposing Sidious and Krayt's empires, because Krayt inherited some of what Palpatine built)
-Had a Skywalker/prodigal Jedi who struggled with the Dark Side as his main rival, and wanted to convert him to the Dark for his own uses.
Things Cade/Luke have in common with Revan:
-Prodigal knight with a lot of natural talent
-Struggled between the Light and Dark, taking the troubled hero role
-Clearly inferior to the Sith Emperor of his time
Only difference is Vitiate was recycled far more than Krayt, because he either wins, or if he dies he returns in a new body. Thematically, there's no huge difference.
Also, points I would push in Krayt's favour:
-Maybe telekinesis
-Maybe lightning
-Combative skill
-Healing
-All physical attributes
One saber throw could f*ck Vitiate up while he's focused on something else, like attacking Krayt's mind. Krayt lulled Wyyrlok into walking into lightsaber range, and Aryn Leneer doing some saber-throw f*ckery was enough to baffle Malgus briefly; I see it as being quite plausible indeed against someone as clumsy as Vitiate, who at times will meet you halfway and walk into your sword. And any respite Krayt gets can be spent healing, putting Vitiate back to square-one.
Originally posted by ILS
Krayt displayed Force reserves along similar lines to Luke Skywalker, albeit inevitably inferior, at a time where he was a hundred years before his prime.
Luke likely being superior to Palpatine and Valkorion. I think he'd be better than any of them as well.
According to Marr, who isn't much of a source, "All life in the galaxy, [b]in time" would be consumed, after Vitiate would destroy Revan and the other main characters. In that sense I agree, Vitiate would eventually kill off/drain anyone who couldn't stand against him. But maybe not all at once.[/b]
Also, here's a vision from the Wrath of what would happen if Vitiate returns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLE5EU33mR4&t=0m25s
That's obviously beyond Krayt's abilities. Hell, being honest, as Neph has pointed out in the past, SoR implies that Vitiate would be more powerful than all the main protagonists combined (potentially Revan included). The prospect of joining Revan and aiding him when he resurrects Vitiate wasn't even considered, making me believe that such a plan would also be doomed from the start.
And then after SoR, Vitiate laid waste to Ziost, destroying massive structures with waves of dark side energy that also disintegrated everyone it came across. As I said, he shouldn't be significantly more powerful than novel Vitiate, and even being close to this level of power is well beyond anything Darth Krayt has ever hoped to show.
I can agree Viti has better telepathy, the question is more whether or not he could use it successfully against Krayt. Krayt's willpower is insane.
Eh. Things Krayt has in common with Sidious:-Rose the Sith and ruled over them in secret as their Emperor
-Ruled the galaxy and came close to destroying the Jedi (with sources even juxtaposing Sidious and Krayt's empires, because Krayt inherited some of what Palpatine built)
-Had a Skywalker/prodigal Jedi who struggled with the Dark Side as his main rival, and wanted to convert him to the Dark for his own uses.Things Cade/Luke have in common with Revan:
-Prodigal knight with a lot of natural talent
-Struggled between the Light and Dark, taking the troubled hero role
-Clearly inferior to the Sith Emperor of his timeOnly difference is Vitiate was recycled far more than Krayt, because he either wins, or if he dies he returns in a new body. Thematically, there's no huge difference.
Hell, Darth Malak fits most your Palpatine/Krayt standards.
Also, points I would push in Krayt's favour:-Maybe telekinesis
-Maybe lightning
-Combative skill
-Healing
-All physical attributes
Things in Vitiate's favor:
- Definitely telekinesis
- Definitely lightning
- Definitely telepathy
- Greater raw power
- Greater Force mastery
Also, again, Krayt likely isn't better than the World Razer or Soa.
Vitiate is.
One saber throw could f*ck Vitiate up while he's focused on something else, like attacking Krayt's mind.
Krayt lulled Wyyrlok into walking into lightsaber range,
and Aryn Leneer doing some saber-throw f*ckery was enough to baffle Malgus briefly; I see it as being quite plausible indeed against someone as clumsy as Vitiate, who at times will meet you halfway and walk into your sword. And any respite Krayt gets can be spent healing, putting Vitiate back to square-one.
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I don't see Krayt overcoming Vitiate's lightning storm.
I don't see Krayt willing through Vitiate's telepathy.
I don't see Krayt besting Vitiate in a telekinetic battle.
I don't see Krayt's mastery or knowledge being even close.
Not really. He showed greater endurance, but so has Caedus.They bad both received similar injuries and were relying on the Force for sustenance. Krayt was up first, Luke received a pep talk from Mara's ghost just to continue living. Even accounting for Sith being able to use pain for fuel, Krayt being able to do that shows immense raw power and mastery of it - it wasn't just a physical game, if anything was physical in Beyond Shadows.
He's probably not.His potential is meant to be double that of Palpatine's, superior in any case, and went through enough conflict and training over the years to cultivate that power. It's logical for him to have surpassed Palps, and Palps is > Valk.
Well for one, Krayt isn't coming close to "destroying" Revan. He's probably not even Revan's equal, but I'm generous.To "kill" someone in Star Wars is commonly substituted with "destroy" - I don't think they mean it in our versus forum sense of the word, meaning to win quickly and clearly. You can't rule out the possibility that Krayt could kill Revan in a fight. Also, while Vitiate is obviously better than Revan by SWTOR, you're using Marr again.
Also, here's a vision from the Wrath of what would happen if Vitiate returns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLE5EU33mR4&t=0m25sThese are admittedly fair points, though my question to you now is; do you really believe Novel Vitiate is also capable of this in a combative sense? Without being a spirit, using a ritual or by whatever means Vitiate would use to devour stars etc?That's obviously beyond Krayt's abilities. Hell, being honest, as Neph has pointed out in the past, SoR implies that Vitiate would be more powerful than all the main protagonists combined (potentially Revan included). The prospect of joining Revan and aiding him when he resurrects Vitiate wasn't even considered, making me believe that such a plan would also be doomed from the start.
Also, Visions aren't always true.
Krayt fell to his knees against Wyyrlok's telepathy. With someone as powerful as Vitiate, I have doubts Krayt is getting up.He fell on his knees to Wyyrlok's prepped telepathy which drew on all of Krayt's worst nightmares, with Wyyrlok being the ideal person to exploit them given how intimately he knew Krayt. And not only did he get back up and stab Wyyrlok after enduring the brunt of it, he claims that the trap was his, not Wyyrlok's, implying he lured Wyyrlok into believing his telepathy was working.
Wyyrlok killed Andeddu, a revered ancient Sith, in a telepathic struggle with just willpower; Andeddu could do the same to other Force users. Wyyrlok had a homefield edge, gave it his best shot, and Krayt walked through him.
What has Vitiate done to suggest he can permanently floor Krayt without any prior knowledge of him? I don't mind nexus showings if you can convince me that the nexus doesn't make up the difference of who Vitiate subdued and Wyyrlok.
There's no way you genuinely believe Krayt's more of your Palpatine/Vitiate than your Revan/Vader.You were basing your conclusion on what the writers presented Vitiate as; holistically, Krayt fits the theme of Sith Emperor in search of galactic power and immortality better than prodigal knight. It's a trope in Star Wars scattered all over the EU and in the movies. It doesn't necessarily denote power between eras (otherwise as you say, Malak could pass for a Sidious since he at one point led the Sith etc), but if anything Krayt is boxed as more of a Sidious than a contender for Sidious. People contend with him in Legacy, because he's the best. And they would all lose. In any case, I don't think we can conclude anything useful from this.Hell, Darth Malak fits most your Palpatine/Krayt standards.
Things in Vitiate's favor:Why?- Definitely telekinesis
- Definitely lightning
Also, again, Krayt likely isn't better than the World Razer or Soa.Why?
I doubt Vitiate would have to put as much focus against Krayt as he did against Revan. Their willpower isn't comparable.I think a Krayt who isn't nearly as badly injured and weakened as Revan, facing a non-amped Vitiate, would suffice to require all of his focus, actually. Revan's willpower is insane and all, but so is Krayt's. Do you really think Revan's is so much better he also makes up the difference of the circumstances in the novel?
He didn't "lure" Wyyrlok. Wyyrlok was ****ing him up and Krayt overcame.Krayt disagrees, and well, it worked out for him. Given that he knows how Wyyrlok would operate in a fight, being his most trusted lieutenant, I'm going to take his word for it. It might not have been easy but Krayt was in control. All he did in their Force exchange was repel Wyyrlok's attacks, much like Yoda did Dooku's.
I doubt it. Revan opted to use a Force attack rather than a lightsaber throw against Vitiate, presumably out of reason that it would be the most effective.Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it can't. Revan first tried to just rush Vitiate and was repelled, but when Vitiate used telepathy he gave Revan an opening to use the Force. A lightsaber is a fine substitute, and Krayt carries two, or a Force attack to put Vitiate on his works too. Or, throw a lightsaber while Vitiate is on his ass. The point is, the guy isn't infallible when it comes to compromising himself against a more skilled fighter, and Reborn Krayt is not only more skilled than him, but he's better than the incredibly weakened Reborn Revan who Vitiate took on.
Also? Vitiate is incredibly prone to charging up attacks (and what he doesn't charge up can be batted aside/blocked, as Revan showed). Krayt can easily exploit that opening with lightning or TK.
Also? Vitiate thought it wise to give Revan time to heal himself. If he provides Krayt the same courtesy when he's presumably dead to rights, and it's likely to happen given Vitiate's arrogance, Krayt is going to return to 100% and give Viti the fright of his life.
All good points, like I said earlier. However, you haven't necessarily presented arguments in favor of Darth Krayt yet.
I think the best way to recognize Vitiate's abilities in telekinesis, Force lightning, telepathy, raw power, etc. is to see where his inferiors stand.
TELEPATHY:
He fell on his knees to Wyyrlok's prepped telepathy which drew on all of Krayt's worst nightmares, with Wyyrlok being the ideal person to exploit them given how intimately he knew Krayt. And not only did he get back up and stab Wyyrlok after enduring the brunt of it, he claims that the trap was his, not Wyyrlok's, implying he lured Wyyrlok into believing his telepathy was working.
a.) The fact Darth Krayt had to lure Darth Wyyrlok into a trap suggests he could not have bested him easily otherwise. If his power was significantly greater, he could have overwhelmed him with Force powers or his lightsaber skills, but he didn't. The fact Darth Krayt was willing to be brought to his knees with Darth Wyyrlok's lightsaber ready suggests desperation.
b.) Alternatively, the prospect of Darth Wyyrlok bringing Darth Krayt to his knees on fair grounds is still possible. Darth Krayt musing that this was was his trap, not Wyyrlok's, was after Krayt visibly overcame the illusions. As we see in the comic, Krayt is blatantly in distraught and dismay, clenching his head and his face pale and sagging. If Wyyrlok didn't decide to give a short "time to die" speech before bringing down his lightsaber, Krayt would have probably been dead.
What has Vitiate done to suggest he can permanently floor Krayt without any prior knowledge of him? I don't mind nexus showings if you can convince me that the nexus doesn't make up the difference of who Vitiate subdued and Wyyrlok.
Also, it stands to reason that Vitiate would be capable of producing far greater results than Darth Wyyrlok.
a.) Scourge has shown immense pain resistance, walking through a Dark Council member's lightning storm and walking away after significant physical injuries such as broken ribs, cuts across his head and body, etc. At the end of the novel, Scourge endures Vitiate's ritual of immortality, which yielded sensations like the following: "invisible claws tore at his insides, seemingly shredding his vital organs." He also wasn't nearly as affected by the Nathema nexus as Meetra Surik, suggesting comparable, if not greater, willpower. And yet a mere brush of Vitiate's power brought Scourge instantly to his knees, shrieking with pain. "The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."
b.) The game makes clear that even the combined powers of the Dread Masters, when even considering the nexus of Oricon, were "insignificant" next to that of Vitiate (obviously note no one has even seen Vitiate's full power at display). The Dread Masters are capable of "breaking entire armies" with "crippling fear and mass hysteria." A source even states that "Republic and Imperial ships were torn apart by dark waves of madness and fear." They were also capable of enslaving an army of hundreds of Sith Lords, their mere presence killed anyone in a 900 foot radius around them even when on Force-hindering drugs, and brought the Hero of Tython to his knees from across the galaxy. And yet Vitiate was capable of keeping them "in check" throughout his life, with the Dread Masters even respecting his power.
Also, Darth Revan showed the ability of Drain knowledge shortly after his encounter with Vitiate. Note that when he confronted Vitiate, the Dark Lord peered into his mind, making me believe that he would have learned said technique. Also obviously note that chances are he already knew it after thousands of years of study. Basically, he should be capable of bringing Krayt's foremost fears to the forefront of his mind. Alternatively, Vitiate might just completely sunder Krayt's mind with the dark side and dominate it by virtue of sheer and absolute emptiness and annihilation, like he did against Scourge and attempted against Revan. Point is, he's beyond Krayt's pay-grade.
Wyyrlok killed Andeddu, a revered ancient Sith, in a telepathic struggle with just willpower; Andeddu could do the same to other Force users. Wyyrlok had a homefield edge, gave it his best shot, and Krayt walked through him.
I think a Krayt who isn't nearly as badly injured and weakened as Revan, facing a non-amped Vitiate, would suffice to require all of his focus, actually. Revan's willpower is insane and all, but so is Krayt's. Do you really think Revan's is so much better he also makes up the difference of the circumstances in the novel?
FORCE LIGHTNING:
Why?
It's a matter of scaling, really.
Darth Krayt's lightning has never impressed me much, in truth. A lot of his feats and scalling is related to the Yuuzhan Vong, which are infamously weak against Force lightning (Traitor aside).
I recognize his scaling as being far better at it than any other Sith in his era, but Vitiate trumps that.
Darth Nyriss, after charging her energy for twenty seconds, was capable of disintegrating Meetra Surik and Scourge at the same time. When the energy was released, Revan jumped in front of it and backhanded the lightning back at Darth Nyriss. The result was Darth Nyriss being turned into a pile of ash. I take this as indication that Revan is capable of dishing out more raw power in a split second than Darth Nyriss can in twenty (obviously keeping in mind what Darth Nyriss can do with that twenty second lightning). In other words, Revan should be capable of disintegrating Darth Nyriss with his own power fairly easily (note he's in worse shape here than he was against Vitiate).
Now, note the following:
a.) Vitiate's (charged) lightning is 'infinitely" more powerful than Darth Nyriss' (charged) lightning. Keep in mind the Vitiate likely charged it for less than a second, whereas Darth Nyriss did so for twenty.
b.) Vitiate is more powerful than Revan, making me believe he could also disintegrate Darth Nyriss.
Now, of course, disintegrating a Darth Nyriss-tier Force user *is* beyond anything any character has shown in the Legacy era.
TELEKINESIS:
Why?
Darth Krayt's best telekinetic display, if you ask me, was his handling of Darth Nihl.
While great, here's what Soa did against the protagonists (note this could have happened to Darth Nox) while fighting the rest:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4793621-3243762457-47934.gif
Now, note that Vitiate is more powerful than Soa as of SWTOR, and logically more powerful or at least around the same level as of the novel.
I think it's fairly clear which display of telekinesis is more impressive.
OTHER:
They bad both received similar injuries and were relying on the Force for sustenance. Krayt was up first, Luke received a pep talk from Mara's ghost just to continue living. Even accounting for Sith being able to use pain for fuel, Krayt being able to do that shows immense raw power and mastery of it - it wasn't just a physical game, if anything was physical in Beyond Shadows.
His potential is meant to be double that of Palpatine's, superior in any case, and went through enough conflict and training over the years to cultivate that power. It's logical for him to have surpassed Palps, and Palps is > Valk.
These are admittedly fair points, though my question to you now is; do you really believe Novel Vitiate is also capable of this in a combative sense? Without being a spirit, using a ritual or by whatever means Vitiate would use to devour stars etc?Also, Visions aren't always true.
Note that the vision was of a physical Vitiate, not a spirit version. The game didn't suggest a ritual either.
Sure, but even being thought of as having enough power to destroy the Rishi Maze dwarf galaxy is insane.
You were basing your conclusion on what the writers presented Vitiate as; holistically, Krayt fits the theme of Sith Emperor in search of galactic power and immortality better than prodigal knight. It's a trope in Star Wars scattered all over the EU and in the movies. It doesn't necessarily denote power between eras (otherwise as you say, Malak could pass for a Sidious since he at one point led the Sith etc), but if anything Krayt is boxed as more of a Sidious than a contender for Sidious. People contend with him in Legacy, because he's the best. And they would all lose. In any case, I don't think we can conclude anything useful from this.
Just because it didn't happen, doesn't mean it can't. Revan first tried to just rush Vitiate and was repelled, but when Vitiate used telepathy he gave Revan an opening to use the Force. A lightsaber is a fine substitute, and Krayt carries two, or a Force attack to put Vitiate on his works too. Or, throw a lightsaber while Vitiate is on his ass. The point is, the guy isn't infallible when it comes to compromising himself against a more skilled fighter, and Reborn Krayt is not only more skilled than him, but he's better than the incredibly weakened Reborn Revan who Vitiate took on.
Revan already confronted Vitiate and should know the best ways to undermine him.
I don't think the opening provided Revan with a means of throwing the lightsaber anyway. Hurling something at Vitiate with the Force is a lot different from unleashing a blast of power.
And as I hope I made clear throughout my post, Darth Krayt might not even be better than the Revan in question. At least not in willpower.
Also? Vitiate is incredibly prone to charging up attacks (and what he doesn't charge up can be batted aside/blocked, as Revan showed). Krayt can easily exploit that opening with lightning or TK.
I don't think this is fair to say. There's a difference from attempting to dominate Revan's mind but failing too, and then being inherently prone to all durated Force attacks.
Vitiate should be capable of handling Krayt's attacks due to having greater power (as outlined above). Even in a war of non-charged attacks, he should come out as the better.
Vitiate's lightning has also shown the ability to stop Revan dead in his tracks, and his telekinesis has pushed Revan dozens of meters back, suggesting he can't simply be rushed and killed.
Also? Vitiate thought it wise to give Revan time to heal himself. If he provides Krayt the same courtesy when he's presumably dead to rights, and it's likely to happen given Vitiate's arrogance, Krayt is going to return to 100% and give Viti the fright of his life.
The opportunity wouldn't have been presented to Revan otherwise.
Likewise, I think it's possible that Vitiate truly does have the raw power of thousands of Sith Lords, and if true, he should be able to consistently defeat Darth Krayt.
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Originally posted by Azronger
Why is Vitiate destroying a galaxy in a vision taken seriously here? The game notes it would take a ritual that required centuries of prep, and Vitiate's best feat is destroying a planet, not a galaxy, lol.
Remind me where it said it would take "centuries" of prep? All that was mentioned is it would take a galaxy spanning war.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The vision was him destroying the Rishi Maze, which is significantly different from the galaxy-consuming ritual from the Vanilla.
Um, you are aware that dwarf galaxies are still galaxies? You know, those things that have billions of stars in them and are thousands of lightyears in diameter? If you believe Vitiate is a galaxy buster then bring evidence other than a sketchy vision. Vitiate's best feat is still only planetary.
