Orlando Terrorist Attack

Originally posted by Raisen
lestov is a loser in life. we need to all ignore him. he is a scumbag, government assistance receiver, unemployed "man", ignorant, piece of human garbage.
what kind of shiit says the ignorance he says? a low-life is what does that. he doesn't work. he doesn't contribute to society in any way. he could be looking for a part-time job but instead is spending it's time constantly posting here.

think about it. it's not worth it

Are you seriously going to use this tragedy to troll and make petty personal attacks? If you and TI wish to discuss my private life with me, could we keep it in the PMs? That's why PMs exist you know.

Originally posted by MohammadPBUH
Most Muslims are not terrorists; this is all terribly sad. True Muslims should not argue with anyone in Ramadan; that is part of Ramadan.

This man was a steroid-jacked, Walter Mitty he was not part of Daesh.

The hate for a whole group is wrong, what the Jews do in Palestine is wrong, what the Americans and Europeans have done destabilising an entire region for oil is wrong.

All murder and death are wrong.

Oh god.. Not this guy.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Lol. So you think I specifically said the Bible motivated Mateen, or was I just using the Bible as a rhetorical example of scripture with homophobic passages? If you think of me, a Zoroastrian with a devout Christian family who regularly goes to church, as anti-Christian, then you clearly misunderstand me.

My main point is that fundamentalist scripture can not be used for homophobia or any other human rights violations, which is what many fanatics, Muslims and Christians both (shown by people like Omar Mateen and Kim Davis) use to justify their intolerance and hate. Do you not agree that just because Leviticus says homophobic things, it should not be used to justify homophobic acts? Because that's the only point I'm trying to make.

Or do you disagree? Are you saying intolerance based on scripture is acceptable? I'm trying to understand how our viewpoints differ because I don't see any difference besides you misunderstanding my point.

Homophobia is a human construct. Your point only stands if you believe the Bible is either fake or was written by man. God can't be "homophobic", no matter how many times you say it. And you keep harping on religious fanaticism, ignoring the fact that political ideology has contributed to far more deaths than religion could.

Couldn't you make that same argument if you believe the Quran to be the word of God?

Guys, can you please stop bashing Lestov. I don't agrew with what he said, but he has a right to his opiniin, just like the rest of us. Let's discuss this shooter and the incident itself.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Couldn't you make that same argument if you believe the Quran to be the word of God?

Humans can be homophobic, I don't think God can be. Lestov keeps calling the Bible homophobic, so he's already inserted his own beliefs into the equation. However, I don't think humans who believe the word of God are homophobic if they simply believe homosexuality is wrong based on God's principles. Homophobia is defined as a fear or hatred of homosexuals. If I follow God's principles (whatever the religion), I don't hate or fear homosexuals, I just think they are wrong. All of these isms and phobia concepts have been used and abused by people like lestov, and that's my problem with him.

With that said, you can't just go around killing people because of your "bible", obviously.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Homophobia is a human construct. Your point only stands if you believe the Bible is either fake or was written by man. God can't be "homophobic", no matter how many times you say it. And you keep harping on religious fanaticism, ignoring the fact that political ideology has contributed to far more deaths than religion could.

Again, I do not understand how this is any different from what I said. You say homophobia is a human construct, so doesn't that mean that homophobic passages such as Leviticus 20:13 are man-made?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Lol. So you think I specifically said the Bible motivated Mateen, or was I just using the Bible as a rhetorical example of scripture with homophobic passages? If you think of me, a Zoroastrian with a devout Christian family who regularly goes to church, as anti-Christian, then you clearly misunderstand me.

My main point is that fundamentalist scripture can not be used for homophobia or any other human rights violations, which is what many fanatics, Muslims and Christians both (shown by people like Omar Mateen and Kim Davis) use to justify their intolerance and hate. Do you not agree that just because Leviticus says homophobic things, it should not be used to justify homophobic acts? Because that's the only point I'm trying to make.

Or do you disagree? Are you saying intolerance based on scripture is acceptable? I'm trying to understand how our viewpoints differ because I don't see any difference besides you misunderstanding my point.

Bull to the Shit, dude.

You point parts of a multi-thousand year old book(s) written at a time where there was far less social advancement within the culture (but was still way ahead of its time) and use it to accuse it wholesale of being homophobic and terrorism-causing. It's an old book, genius, cultures evolve, some passages that were acceptable back then may not sound so culturally current now. But you don't take one or two small passages you don't like, use it to paint broad strokes and accuse an entire book of being a cause for terrorism.

"Hopefully this will show the world that the homophobia of the Quran and the Bible <- (blanket accusation) only leads to <-(direct causality) hate, which leads <- (direct causality) to tragedies like this."

You directly accuse the Quran and Bible as being homophobic then state that they can ONLY lead to hate w/c leads (not may or could or sometimes can, but leads w/c implies direct causality) to terrorism like this. There is no ifs and buts here.

So BS on your trying to downplay what you did. Big stinking 10 ton load greenhouse gas contributing Bull. Shit. You either have crap writing compositional skills (w/c makes you sound like raving bigot) or you're downright lying or backpedaling like a champ (with a touch of denial to round things up).

Stop downplaying/denying what you did, stop attempting to change the story, be a decent human being and just either take it back or apologize for saying religiously-bigoted things.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Humans can be homophobic, I don't think God can be. Lestov keeps calling the Bible homophobic, so he's already inserted his own beliefs into the equation. However, I don't think humans who believe the word of God are homophobic if they simply believe homosexuality is wrong based on God's principles. Homophobia is defined as a fear or hatred of homosexuals. If I follow God's principles (whatever the religion), I don't hate or fear homosexuals, I just think they are wrong. All of these isms and phobia concepts have been used and abused by people like lestov, and that's my problem with him.

With that said, you can't just go around killing people because of your "bible", obviously.

But essentially you're saying intolerance and dehumanization is acceptable behavior if one believes it is a divine mandate. Isn't that the kind of thinking that leads to radicalism? Prioritizing faith over human rights?

It seems to me that what Lestov said is correct. We should leave behind the homophobia of the Quran and the Bible, because it does cause and excuse hate in radical people. That does not mean that these books don't contain value otherwise.

But this has literally nothing to do with the bible or Christians.

The discussion that has developed around it has.

I don't think we know the motivations of the shooter, it seems almost certain that he was homophobic though, and therefore the homophobia that is rampant in the US (which is mostly excused by the Bible) and the homophobia in Islam (based on the Quran), are logical topics of discussion.

Lol it developed around it because he kept bringing Christians into it.

Lestov didn't come in here in an attempt to facilitate intelligent discourse into the subject of religious homophobia, literally like 3 posts in:

Originally posted by Lestov16
Yeah. It was undoubtedly a terrorist attack. Even if the guy was just motivated by homophobia, he carried out a mass-casualty hate crime to instill fear in gays. So no matter if he was motivated by personal homophobia or religious homophobia, it was a homophobic terrorist attack.

Or are terrorist attacks exclusively Islamic?

Except nobody said terrorist attacks were exclusively Islamic. Don't bring logic into this when it left the building on page 1.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Bull to the Shit, dude.

You point parts of a multi-thousand year old book(s) written at a time where there was far less social advancement within the culture (but was still way ahead of its time) and use it to accuse it wholesale of being homophobic and terrorism-causing. It's an old book, genius, cultures evolve, some passages that were acceptable back then may not sound so culturally current now. But you don't take one or two small passages you don't like, use it to paint broad strokes and accuse an entire book of being a cause for terrorism.

"Hopefully this will show the world that the homophobia of the Quran and the Bible <- (blanket accusation) only leads to <-(direct causality) hate, which leads <- (direct causality) to tragedies like this."

You directly accuse the Quran and Bible as being homophobic then state that they can ONLY lead to hate w/c leads (not may or could or sometimes can, but leads w/c implies direct causality) to terrorism like this. There is no ifs and buts here.

So BS on your trying to downplay what you did. Big stinking 10 ton load greenhouse gas contributing Bull. Shit. You either have crap writing compositional skills (w/c makes you sound like raving bigot) or you're downright lying or backpedaling like a champ (with a touch of denial to round things up).

Stop downplaying/denying what you did, stop attempting to change the story, be a decent human being and just either take it back or apologize for saying religiously-bigoted things.

How is it a blanket accusation? If the Bible and Quran have homophobic passages saying God mandated intolerance towards gays, that makes both books homophobic. And they both undoubtedly do. See Leviticus for biblical examples. And you say that Christian homophobia is a blanket accusation, but again, it's proven with people like Kim Davis that the homophobic passages of the Bible do in fact proselytize hatred.

I think I see the problem here. You seem to think I am calling the entire legitimacy of the Bible into question when I am only referring to passages which promote human rights violations. My main question is why these passages are considered Word of God, and why people would worship a God they believe promotes human rights violations? Why is such a God worth being worshipped?

IOW, is it acceptable for faith to be prioritized over human rights? That intolerance should be allowed out of respect for worship? Because that belief is what leads to radicalism and extremism such as the attack seen yesterday.

Many people believe that terrorism is only perpetrated by Muslim. Claims like this have been made by people posting in this very thread on this site previously. It makes sense to preemptively point that out. Especially since he didn't even claim that, he asked whether people disagreed.

Originally posted by Lestov16
That makes no sense. Of course I condemned Islamic homophobia. My first post specifically mentioned the Quran. You're just upset because I mentioned all other Abrahamic religions used to justify homophobia as well, including yours, but it's not my fault the Bible has homophobic scripture that fanatics use to justify their intolerance. I didn't write the Bible.

But yeah, I blamed all religious fanaticism and homophobia, of all Abrahamic religions, for this attack. As I've stated time and again, every ideology has opportunists and extremists, and I am not against any ideology itself, only the extremists/opportunists who abuse ideologies to harm others.

And yes, Christianity DOES have extremists/opportunists who use fundamentalist scripture to justify their homophobic intolerance, and yes, I do blame these fundamentalist Christians just as much as Muslims for this attack. I view Kim Davis just as responsible as Mateen for this attack. Again, unless you're justifying her fanatic homophobia, I don't see how you can disagree.

Again, my main point is that no ideology can be used to justify the infliction of suffering and adversity. People saying they're homophobic because God wants them to be shouldn't be viewed as actual religious practitioners but rather as fanatics/opportunists. Or do you believe religious homophobia has divine legitimacy?

I never said you didn't condemn it. I said what you typed up wasn't as much a condemnation of Islamic homophobia than it was an attempt to draw parallels between the Bible and Quran. There was no need to mention the Bible in your little comment. But you did so anyway.

Then maybe NEXT TIME you should be more specific instead of going around making blanket accusations that are extremely bigoted to the ppl affected by it.

Hell, I even gave the "gangbanger culture" example, just to help you figure out where you went wrong.

Then use "ideology". There becomes a stark difference when you point out an specific wrong act as wrong vs when you try and attribute such acts as being inherent to a specific ppl/belief. One is a correct way of saying it. One is a bigoted way of saying it.

And excuse me? You're blaming "Fundamental Christians just as much as the Muslims for this act"? You DO understand that the Christians had nothing to do with this attack? And neither did the Muslims as a people? It was Islamic terrorists that did this. Maybe blame the actual ppl who committed the act instead? Your logic sounds like the same Trump-speak that you love to hate on, but it sounds like you're no different from him.

Hopefully you can learn from this experience and be more sensitive with what you write in the future so that you can avoid arguments like this.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Many people believe that terrorism is only perpetrated by Muslim. Claims like this have been made by people in this very thread on this site previously. It makes sense to preemptively point that out. Especially since he didn't even claim that, he asked whether people disagreed.

But there was no point to ask. I would also at least say the majority of violent terrorism is perpetrated by Muslims.

Nobody gave any vibe in the thread that it is only ever possible for Islamic people to be terrorists.

I mean we get it some Christians can be hateful. Why did we need 13 pages to say it?

They can be hateful, though usually nowhere near as extreme.

Originally posted by Surtur

Except nobody said terrorist attacks were exclusively Islamic.

Actually that was implied. Here you see posts that give confirmation to say it was Islamic but hesitation to say it was homophobic. Clearly the narrative is the attack was exclusively Islamic

Might not be homophobic:

Originally posted by Nibedicus

Edit. And yes, I said "seemingly" because we don't have the exact information about his motivations as of yet, all we have is speculation. All things as of now are pointing to it, I agree, but I'd rather wait for all the information before stating it as a fact. I mean would it be an heterophobic act of terrorism if the club he attacked wasn't a LGBT nightclub? Until we have 100% of the facts before us, we cannot start stating things as facts.

But it was definitely Islamic:

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Hopefully this will affirm and make it well known to ignorant people that Islam hates and kills gays and throws them off buildings kills, imprisions them in places like Iran, Pakistan, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Syria, and Iraq.

So, you take offense at someone asking whether people in this thread only believe that Islam perpetrates terrorism, but not with this previous blanket statement towards all Islam:

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Hopefully this will affirm and make it well known to ignorant people that Islam hates and kills gays and throws them off buildings kills, imprisions them in places like Iran, Pakistan, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Syria, and Iraq.