Orlando Terrorist Attack

Originally posted by Lestov16
I...can't disagree with this. I am an idealist. I believe that on one hand, we are animals, and are bound, caged per se, by our animalistic instincts. But because of our intelligence, we seek to be something above the animals.

Originally posted by Surtur
You realize even your reply wasn't really "getting into it" because you basically said "they were super awesome and it's not their fault they are no longer awesome".

If you are going to say the religion of Islam is itself inherently violent because of its violent passages, which is what it seems like you want to do, then I ask what separates the violent passages of the Quran from the violent passages of the Quran? If you are saying it's a cultural problem, then as I said, the cause is geopolitical reasons, like MS listed.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Fine let's discuss the Islamic side. What is causing Muslims to be so violent? In the times of Saladin, Muslims were the advanced civilization of the world, and Christians were the barbarians. Now, the exact opposite is occurring. What caused this switch? The simplest answer is geopolitical cultural norms and resource exploitation.

Muslims were advanced because it wasn't just Muslims in the middle east at that time, it was mixed of different cultures. Back then, the Baghdad was what the west is now, multicultural.

Muslims were just as barbaric as Christians back then, or have you forgotten the Ottoman empire. One of the main reasons for the Crusade was because of the Ottoman's spreading of Islam.

Originally posted by Surtur
I think environment matters. I think how you are raised plays a big part. We've seen statistics, even something like having just one parent raises your chances of becoming a criminal, etc.

This is what I meant by geopolitical factors. Just as black crime rates can be attributed to impoverished upbringings, can Islamic violence be attributed to barbarism typically seen of countries with poor infrastructure?

Originally posted by Lestov16
If you are going to say the religion of Islam is itself inherently violent because of its violent passages, which is what it seems like you want to do, then I ask what separates the violent passages of the Quran from the violent passages of the Quran? If you are saying it's a cultural problem, then as I said, the cause is geopolitical reasons, like MS listed.

I assume you mean what separates the violent passages of the bible from the Quran? If so, there is this one basic truth: in this modern age, which book is used to justify the worst atrocities? The Quran. Christians overall aren't blowing themselves up in the name of Jesus. They aren't committing the majority of terrorist attacks.

Muslims were just as barbaric as Christians back then, or have you forgotten the Ottoman empire. One of the main reasons for the Crusade was because of the Ottoman's spreading of Islam.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
We may seek to be above animals but we are worse than animals precisely because more is expected from us. There are more dumb people on this planet than smart, as well as more evil than good. Our capacity for evil trumps our potential for good, that's why I'm a realist.

So should we just be evil all the time then? If world peace is an impossible dream, why even bother being civilized? Why not just revert to barbarism? If might makes right, why pretend that right can make might? Why hope for a better future?
(Again, rhetorical question)

Originally posted by Lestov16
So should we just be evil all the time then? If world peace is an impossible dream, why even bother being civilized? Why not just revert to barbarism? If might makes right, why pretend that right can make might? Why hope for a better future?
(Again, rhetorical question)

Obviously not but lets not pretend peace and love have ever or will ever work. We just have to do our best with the hand we're dealt. That's the best anyone can ask for.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So should we just be evil all the time then? If world peace is an impossible dream, why even bother being civilized? Why not just revert to barbarism? If might makes right, why pretend that right can make might? Why hope for a better future?
(Again, rhetorical question)

What you do is accept there will always be strife somewhere. We need to seek to minimize it, but it will never go away. It doesn't mean we stop being civilized, we just recognize we won't have it where everyone is civilized.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Obviously not but lets not pretend peace and love have ever or will ever work. We just have to do our best with the hand we're dealt. That's the best anyone can ask for.

But that goes back to the point I made earlier about ideologies. We try to do our best by creating various ideologies (religions, capitalism, socialism, utilitarianism, democracy, etc.) to help guide us to better lives, but there's always opportunists and extremists who exploit the ideology. And at the end of the day, these opportunists and extremists end up becoming the most successful, perhaps because as Keyser Soze said "The key to power is the will to do what your opponents won't". So even in civilization, where right is supposed to make right, the rule of barbarism, that might makes right, is still the rule of the land. So are we really just barbarians pretending to be civil?

YouTube video

Should we declare war?

Actually declaring war on radical islam would give congress and the FBI, NSA, CIA, and other government and law enforcement agencies much more powers to deal with the threat at home and abroad. Its been talked about for years, but no one will do anything about it.

We are at war with Radical Islam, so we should declare it as they have declared it against us.

But that may appear to be what isis wants. Be careful what you wish for.

See the ultimate problem with this war is that it is a war against an ideology. You can say Islam is bad because terrorists say they are motivated by it, but any objective complaints against the religion's intolerant scripture can be given to any other Abrahamic scripture as well.

If one says we are at war with Islam, they would be speaking against its sharia/salafist sects rather than the entire religion itself. If they do mean the entire religion, then the question comes up of why Islam is less legitimate than other Abrahamic religions.

Ultimately though, the problem is brainwashing. Entire populations including families believe in sharia law. So what do we do? Is Trump right? Do we have to kill them all?

Well, love and kindness isn't working.. I shudder to think what trump is going to do to the middle east if he's elected.

Originally posted by Lestov16
See the ultimate problem with this war is that it is a war against an ideology. You can say Islam is bad because terrorists say they are motivated by it, but any objective complaints against the religion's intolerant scripture can be given to any other Abrahamic scripture as well.

If one says we are at war with Islam, they would be speaking against its sharia/salafist sects rather than the entire religion itself. If they do mean the entire religion, then the question comes up of why Islam is less legitimate than other Abrahamic religions.

Ultimately though, the problem is brainwashing. Entire populations including families believe in sharia law. So what do we do? Is Trump right? Do we have to kill them all?

If ISIS had been destroyed and not expanding like they this call to join ISIS would cease to exist.

We can't have ISIS running wild like they are, as long as they hold territory, that makes them legitimate in the eyes of the Koran and people will join.

You really think Hillary "The Interventionist" Clinton will be peaceful either?

I dont support her nation destroying one bit. I dont condone any war what so ever. But if a group rises out and needs to be put down, someone has to do it.

TBF, let's not forget why ISIS is winning. Turks want to be jerks and not support the Kurds. Shit would be going a lot better if the Kurds had NATO support.