Homophobia: The New Closeted Homosexual

Originally posted by Robtard
Literally already answered that on this very page, so if you're going to ignore answers only to ask the same question again,

You literally said, “what about Leviticus?” and when asked about providing details—context to your claim, you provided … nothing. You just danced around the issue.

Thus, it is apparent you failed at stating what is your position exactly. Saing “what about (insert something)” is not clarifying your position. 👆

Originally posted by Robtard
in the very least stop implying other people are stupid and that you're a smart person.

Originally posted by Robtard
Cos all you're doing is feeding the stereotype that Pollocks are imbeciles.

I also have a feeling you might be revealing too much of your attitude with that statement 👆

In other words, do not waste my time, Rob. All you did is state something, then, when asked to clarify what you mean, you provided nothing, and then (not so cleverly) you inserted appeal to stereotypes in your post.

I am actually entertaining the idea that you are trolling 👆

Actually, I said "Ever heard of Leviticus?". If you're going to quote someone, at least quote them correctly, smart-guy.

That should have answered your question, unless you really don't have a single clue what Leviticus/Bible means regarding homosexuality, which in that case, why are you arguing here when you don't know the basics?

But here you go, since you insist on reinforcing the Pollock stereotype:

Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

“Verses in the Quran

Quran (7:80-84) – "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (Inexplicably, the story is also repeated in suras 15:74, 27:58 and 29:40).

Quran (7:81) – "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?"

This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Quran (26:165-166) – "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Quran (4:16) – "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone"

This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"😉. In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.”

Polls

Since PEW is already well known here let me add some other countries

GERMANY

Bundesminiterium fürs Innere [2012]
http://www.infogmbh.de/images/downloads/TiD-Wertewelten%202012_Studie%20in%20Auszgen.pdf
Page: 10
Homosexuality is a disease: 51%
Same Sex Marriage should be allowed: 26% (went down from formerly 30%)
Page: 12 (on the question what they think is bad)
A man has a homosexual relationship wth anotehr man: 73% (went up from 69%)

UK

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

“On social issues, 52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal, compared to 22% of non-Muslim Britons.”

AUSTRIA

http://religion.orf.at/stories/2619481/

“Ich möchte keine Homosexuellen als Freunde haben.”
„Muslime 69%, Christen 15%“
Translation: I don’t want to have homosexual friends
Muslims 69%, Christians 15%

I'd like to note that Leviticus is from the old testament, Jesus has one passage where he said that homosexuality was unnantural thats it, while Mohammad outright said to kill them. I'm not defending christianity but to act like christianity nowadays is as much of a threat to anything on the same level as Islam is so ****ing retarded.

While Jesus was pretty much the prototype Hippy, Mohammed was the prototype Jihadist, that ******* waged war and has spread genocide across the land he was tolerant in the beginning in Mekka because he had next to no followers later when he gained ground he showed his true face in Medina.

Agreed, Abrahamic religious views on homosexuality are barbaric 👆

Originally posted by Robtard
Agreed, Abrahamic religious views on homosexuality are barbaric 👆

The difficulty with these questions is that contrasting values which have emerged in modernity, with all its different presuppositions about Personhood, Nature, Individualism etc., etc., with those arrived at in a very different context is actually a very laborious task. If one isn't willing to do the work to unpick and understand intellectual history then fine but their views are, as a consequence, probably no more than ill thought out opinion.

I think what modern people don't like to admit is that the philosophical and cultural understanding which produced an aversion to sodomy in the ancient and medieval worlds (Ancient Greece and Rome also held to this aversion, though to differing degrees) is actually quite robust and not simplistic bigotry inspired by arbitrary religious judgments.

Originally posted by Robtard
Agreed, Abrahamic religious views on homosexuality are barbaric 👆

Good thing the old testament isnt used anymore

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Good thing the old testament isnt used anymore

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Good thing the old testament isnt used anymore

1 / 2

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, I said "Ever heard of Leviticus?". If you're going to quote someone, at least quote them correctly, smart-guy.
Careful, or such nitpicking might convince someone that you are a petty guy. The difference was minimal, you knucklehead 👆
[QUOTE=15793898]Originally posted by Robtard
[B]That should have answered your question, unless you really don't have a single clue what Leviticus/Bible means regarding homosexuality,
?

Not at all. I wanted you to provide the context for Leviticus, and finally, after some pains, you found the correct passage.

BTW why are you arguing here when you don't know the basics?
I did not comment on Leviticus so you have no basis to claim I don’t know ”the basics.” If I did comment on Leviticus and forgot to mention this passage or said I know nothing about it, you would have a point.

But as we all are used to by now, you have no point and you try to make up by simply stating BS. [Bane] admirable, but mistaken [/Bane]
[QUOTE=15793898]Originally posted by Robtard
[B]But here you go, since you insist on reinforcing the Pollock stereotype:

For someone who in his last post was so nitpicky about correct quotations, you fail miserably at correctly representing what I said. One might say, you on purpose misrepresent it 👆

Interestingly, you also stubbornly cater for such moronic people by bring up that stereotype into the discussion.

It is evident you aspire to be recognized as a part of the moronic group. And given how you bring up idiotic stereotype to “enrich” your posts, you are on the right track 👆

Originally posted by Stigma
Ha, actually I am writing my response to Rob and it includes this point. Thanks Sin 👆

I hope you're not going to say 'Christians don't use the OT any more'... that won't get you very far.

It's basically "I don't believe in God" or "I don't like these laws", therefore they're barbaric.

Hmm... I cannot edit the above post.Porblems with edit button. So..... I'll repost it once more, with better editting:

1 / 2

Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, I said "Ever heard of Leviticus?". If you're going to quote someone, at least quote them correctly, smart-guy.

Originally posted by Robtard
That should have answered your question, unless you really don't have a single clue what Leviticus/Bible means regarding homosexuality,

I wanted you to provide the context for Leviticus, and finally, after some pains, you found the correct passage.

BTW why are you arguing here when you don't know the basics?
I did not comment on Leviticus so you have no basis to claim I don’t know ”the basics.” If I did comment on Leviticus and forgot to mention this passage or said I know nothing about it, you would have a point.

But as we all are used to by now, you have no point and you try to make up by simply stating BS. [Bane] admirable, but mistaken [/Bane]

Originally posted by Robtard
But here you go, since you insist on reinforcing the Pollock stereotype:

For someone who in his last post was so nitpicky about correct quotations, you fail miserably at correctly representing what I said. One might say, you on purpose misrepresent it 👆

Interestingly, you also stubbornly cater for such moronic people by bring up that stereotype into the discussion.

It is evident you aspire to be recognized as a part of the moronic group. And given how you bring up idiotic stereotype to “enrich” your posts, you are on the right track 👆

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The difficulty with these questions is that contrasting values which have emerged in modernity, with all its different presuppositions about Personhood, Nature, Individualism etc., etc., with those arrived at in a very different context is actually a very laborious task. If one isn't willing to do the work to unpick and understand intellectual history then fine but their views are, as a consequence, probably no more than ill thought out opinion.

I think what modern people don't like to admit is that the philosophical and cultural understanding which produced an aversion to sodomy in the ancient and medieval worlds (Ancient Greece and Rome also held to this aversion, though to differing degrees) is actually quite robust and not simplistic bigotry inspired by arbitrary religious judgments.

T hat has nothing to do with how Christians view the Bible. Many of them believe the biblical authors penned it through divine plenary inspiration. They wrote what God intended to say verbatem. It's not a matter of cultural trends...it's a matter of faith in God.

2 / 2

After that, let’s focus on the passage.

Actually, there are a few ways that Christians deal with it, I probably will present just a few.

I myself have no problem with it given that Jesus said this:

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 [u]But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

• This is the core of Christianity, and given that we believe Jesus is God, then what God says is abiding.
Thus, even if someone considers homosexual as their “enemies” s/he needs to employ the stance required by Jesus’s teachings. 👆

However, there is more to Leviticus, of course.

Historical context:

Leviticus was directed to Israel

The book of Leviticus was specifically directed to the nation of Israel. The book begins with God directing Moses to speak to the Israelites.

The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, "Speak to the Israelites... " (Lev 1:1-2).
The phrase "Speak to the children of Israel" is used in over half of the chapters of the book (1:2, 4:1, 7:28, 11:1, 12:1, 15:2, 18:1, 20:1, 23:2, 25:1, 27:1). In several other chapters, Moses was told to "Speak to the children of Aaron" (a reference to the priests). This indicates that the book of Leviticus was specifically for the people of Israel

The book focuses on the tabernacle, sacrifices, diseases, food, sabbaths, priests and feasts that were for Israel only. These things all contributed the uniqueness of Israel, but they have been fulfilled by Jesus, so they are not mandatory in the modern world.
The purpose of Leviticus is confirmed in the final chapters.
These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses (Lev 26:46).

The instructions and requirements outlined in the book govern the relationship between God and Israel. They are not universal. This message is confirmed in the final verse of the book.
These are the commands the LORD gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites (Lev 27:34).

Moreover,

The rules given in Leviticus were designed to keep Israel separate from the rest of the world. While they were slaves in Egypt, the Israelites were forced to live together in one place. They were shut out of life in Egypt, but this protected them from the influence of Egyptian culture. Once they moved into the Promised Land, this protection was gone. The risk of losing their identity was enormous. They needed a way to protect themselves from the influence of the surrounding nations..

Next point:

Christians ae no longer under the law [of the Old Testament]

The apostle Paul taught that we are no longer under the Law. Period.

The verses are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. First, Thou shalt not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination. Second, If a man lie with a man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

There is, however, a big problem with quoting Leviticus. The problem is that Christians are no longer under the Law. We do not live our Christian life by following the Old Testament Law. The Apostle Paul makes this abundantly clear. It is not something fabricated to win an argument, or made up in the twentieth century, or manufactured to get around something somebody doesn’t like. It is clearly stated in the Greek scriptures.

The Apostle Paul wrote it in Galatians:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” (Galatians 3:10)
If we rely on following the Law (the Torah, the first five books of the Bible) we are under a curse. The passage above, Galatians 3:10, contains a quote from the Law itself, Deuteronomy 27:26. According to Paul’s statement below, things have changed.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. (Galatians 3:13)

It was Jesus’ death on the cross that rescued us from the curse of the Law. If we insist on following the Law and imposing the Law on others, we negate the cross of Christ, and repudiate Christ’s death on the cross.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1)

^ Which corresponds to what Jesus said in Matthew.

Finally, rather simple point:

[b]Argument form experience in the real world[b]

I will urge you to demonstrate via studies and polls, what percent of Christians worldwide hold radicalized, violent beliefs on homosexuality?

You know, in the similar manner in which it is stated that majority of Muslims are homophobic according to Pew Research study and corroborated by CNN poll on British Muslims.

Of course, judging by experience and common sense there is a small minority of nutjobs in Christianity that hold these beliefs, compared to a majority in Islam 👆

Sources:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:27-36
http://kingwatch.co.nz/Law_Government/leviticus.htm
https://biblethumpingliberal.com/2011/05/19/you-can%E2%80%99t-quote-leviticus-to-prove-god-hates-homosexuality/

BTW I am aware that was long, but theological matters are not dealt with lightly.

@ Parmaniac, thanks for a a great post 👆 ( I cannot quote you for some reason, huh.)

I especially liked how you brought up data from German surveys that further collaborate Pew Research study and CNN poll.

Indeed, majority of Muslism are homophobic. 👆

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
just because you don't agree with the logic or have a belief in god makes it about as barbaric as you ignorant.

It seems Rob is oblivious to historical and cultural context of the Bible, and in general, any in-depth study of religion.

He is not beyond using idiotic stereotypes as tenets in his posts, though 👆

It's not that he's oblivous, it's the typical secularist/atheist holier than thou attitude that I find amusing.

Originally posted by Stigma
BTW I am aware that was long, but theological matters are not dealt with lightly.

Presumably you would still hold that the moral precepts of the Old Law, i.e. Thou shalt not kill/commit adultery etc., are eternally and universally valid because they, as Paul notes, reflect the natural law which is written on human hearts Rms 1. (The natural law being the moral duties which follow from being a human being).

Of course the Mosaic Law was also a civic law to govern the life of Israel, as you note, and so it dictated penalties for transgressions which no longer hold true because Israel has passed away and Christ himself has taken its place as the arc of salvation and body of the people of God.

However, if something is morally wrong then it can be criminalised: we could make adultery illegal if we wanted to. Presumably you would be open, given what Christian teaching confirms and reveals about the nature of man, to criminising homosexual activity at least in principle?